Israel...

[Zzarchov]

They are nationless because their government of Birth (not Israel) isn't giving them citizenship. You aren't owed anything to a country your ancestors came from.

That simple.

Maybe other people in other countries have other versions of morality that differ from Canadian norms. But as a country of immigrants, it would be damn hypocritical for (almost) any Canadian to believe the version of morality you are espousing.

 

[lone wolf]

"...You aren't owed anything to a country your ancestors came from...."

Pardon me???? Isn't that precisely the reason Israel chose Palestine to set itself upon?

 

[earth_as_one]

Given their current level of hostility, I agree that allowing these people to return home after 60 years, isn't a solution which will lead to peace. But a two state solution probably isn't possible anymore given the facts on the ground.

I disagree that "the Arabs chose war". It would be more accurate to say that the Zionists chose to cleanse Palestine of non-Jews. War was an inevitable consequence of their deliberate and premeditated ethnic cleansing which has been so well documented by Jewish Israeli historians.

The first step to a lasting peace in my opinion is a truth commission, where people who tell the truth are granted absolute amnesty. Once the truth comes out, the next step would be finding a resolution that addresses all the identified injustices.

 

[Zzarchov]

"...You aren't owed anything to a country your ancestors came from...."

Pardon me???? Isn't that precisely the reason Israel chose Palestine to set itself upon?

Doesn't really matter does it? They are dead. Their descendants live in the land of their birth now.

If you really feel that strongly about it, go to the reserve, transfer all of your property to the natives there and get a boat back to your ancestors home country.

If you are a native, then you of course, are free to think this way without being a hypocrit.

 

[Zzarchov]

Given their current level of hostility, I agree that allowing these people to return home after 60 years, isn't a solution which will lead to peace. But a two state solution probably isn't possible anymore given the facts on the ground.

I disagree that "the Arabs chose war". It would be more accurate to say that the Zionists chose to cleanse Palestine of non-Jews. War was an inevitable consequence of their deliberate and premeditated ethnic cleansing which has been so well documented by Jewish Israeli historians.

The first step to a lasting peace in my opinion is a truth commission, where people who tell the truth are granted absolute amnesty. Once the truth comes out, the next step would be finding a resolution that addresses all the identified injustices.

No matter how much thoughts of Cleansing are brought up, or aparathied, the fact remains, there are Muslim and Arab politicians running Israel.

 

[lone wolf]

Doesn't really matter does it? They are dead. Their descendants live in the land of their birth now.

If you really feel that strongly about it, go to the reserve, transfer all of your property to the natives there and get a boat back to your ancestors home country.

If you are a native, then you of course, are free to think this way without being a hypocrit.

So ... you profess that it's okay for Israel, but it's not okay for the other people whose land it was - and you're calling ME a hypocrite. Zorch, how many faces do you have?

 

[Just the Facts]

War was an inevitable consequence of their deliberate and premeditated ethnic cleansing which has been so well documented by Jewish Israeli historians.

....yet remains such an abysmal failure on the ground.

 

[earth_as_one]

It ain't over yet...

3/4 of Israelis See Transfer for Arabs

by Hillel Fendel


(IsraelNN.com) A survey carried out the Panels Research Institute finds that more than 75% of Israelis see partial or total transfer of Israeli-Arabs out of Israel in any final-status agreement that includes a Palestinian state.

The poll asked whether it would be justified, in the framework of an agreement for the establishment of a Palestinian state, to demand the transfer out of Israel of all Arabs. Nearly 30% said yes with no reservations, while 28% said only Arabs who did not express loyalty to Israel should be expelled. In addition, another 19% said that Arabs who lived in areas bordering the PA-controlled areas, such as Wadi Area and the southern Galilee, should be transferred out...

 

[Just the Facts]

It ain't over yet...

Yeah apparently there is a movement aimed at promoting buying them out....everyone has their price.

Still, there are over a million Arabs in Israel. Jews: none in Jordan, none in Gaza, and the sentiment expressed in your poll I'm sure would discover 100% of Palestinians saying yes with no reservations in regards to same vis a vis Jews in the west bank.

 

[earth_as_one]

Many Palestnians would rather have their homes back rather than any sum of money. After the new family moves into what used to be your home, what's the value of your family portaits tossed out with the trash? How much compensation is fair for building a parking lot over your parent's cemetary?

This is about justice, not bribe money.

Right of return or at least fair compensation is a fundamental right recognized by all nations which sign the UN Charter. If Israel can't abide by the terms of the UN Charter then it should give up UN recognition.

Regarding the lack of Jews in Jordan and Gaza...

How much land did Palestinians acquire by force?
How many Jews did Palestinians ethnically cleanse from Palestine?
Do you have any maps of Jewish villages razed by Jordanians?
How big was the Jewish community in Jordan before the 1947-48 war?
How many Jordanian Jews were ethnically cleansed from Jordan?

Dozens? Hundreds? Thousands? Hundreds of Thousands? How about a million?

The answer to all the above questions? Nearly 0 as far as I can tell.

But lets suppose some Jordanian Jews were ethnically cleansed from Jordan. I would agree all of them have a right to compensation. As far as I know they are free to return.

I will concede that Palestinian Jews and even immigrant European Jewish refugees fled for their lives during the 1947-48 war. I will also concede that Jews also fled later on from other countries as a result of growing Arab anti-Semitism (1948-2008 ).

But Jordan????

Every refugee has a right to return home or at least receive compensation (unless the state is Israel apparently). I count about 800,000 Palestinians who unfortunately weren't Jewish and as a result were ethnically cleansed from the holylands in the 1947-48 war to make way for the people without land. I count 4 million + non-Jews who remain nationless as a direct result of Israel's creation.


Let's see some evidence.

Palestine: Destroyed Villages (1948 )

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I don't blame you because geography books no longer exist, not only do the boooks not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushu'a in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not one single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
[ Moshe Dayan, in Haifa, quoted by Ha'aretz, April, 4 1969. Reproduced by Ed Walid Khalidi in the book "All That Remains - see below]

Most of the data here come from the book All That Remains (Ed. Walid Khalidi, ISBN 0-88728-224-5, published by The Institute for the Palestine Studies.
The map was based on one prepared by Dr Ghazi Falah (appears in black and white in the book appendix).
Also, info is ocasionally taken from The Arabic desk reference: Mu'jam Buldaan Filastiin (Muhammad Shurrab). More sources may be used later on.
Detailed Map of cleansed villages (with color coded index by district) [65 KB]
Destroyed Village by map index
Charts of the construction of Israeli settlements in Palestine. There is little doubt that no room is left! The charts were captured from an ActiveX map by Microsoft on MSNBC in April. Each map is 45-50 KB in size.
as of 1914
as of 1948
as of 1977 (areas occupied in 1967 only)
as of 1997 (same areas as above)
Picture of a typical village ruins (Al-Zuq al-Fawqani - Safad, in 1987, from W. Khalidi, 42 KB)
(a little graphic): Cleansing graves as well(This skull floats in Balad al-Shaykh, or its ruins, as of 1987. Same sources, 52 Kb)
Village Names sorted by district with English names (Arabic names planned), population (1944/45) and name(s) of Israeli settlements on their ruins.
Note: the No. from Map refers to the map above.
Akka (Acre) District (if you have Arabic support with your browser, try this Akka District list - it has the village names in Arabic)
Baysan District
Gaza (Ghazzah) District
Bi'r As-Sab' (Beersheeba) District
Haifa District
Al-Khalil (Hebron) District
Al-Quds (Jerusalem) District
Safad District
Ar-Ramla District
Tabariyya (Tiberias) District
An-Naasira (Nazareth) District
Tulkarm District
Jenin District
Yaffa District

http://www.palestine-net.com/geography/cleansed/

While researching I came across this:

Overlooking the fertile Ayalon Valley between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv sits Canada Park, a 7,500 acre recreational area covered with pine forests. It is bisected by a winding path the John Diefenbaker Parkway named after the former Canadian prime minister who inaugurated it. Canada Park is a source of pride for the Montreal and Toronto Jewish philanthropists who in 1972 donated more than $15 million to help build it. A brochure of the Jewish National Fund of Canada that undertook the project described it as a "tribute to Canada and to the Canadian Jewish community whose vision and foresight helped transform a barren stretch of land into a major recreational area."

But to Halifax resident Ismail Zayid, Canada Park is a travesty of justice, a blot on this country's record, and a source of seething anger. The park hailed as a humanitarian project and supported with tax exempt donations was built on the ruins of the Palestinian village of his birth, which was dynamited and leveled to the ground by Israeli forces following the Six Day War.

Dr. Zayid's story could be that of any one of the 14,000 inhabitants of Beit Nuba, Yalu and Imwas, the three demolished villages that once stood where Canada Park is now....

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/1091/9110034.htm

Not quite sure what to make of it.

 

[Just the Facts]

The answer to all the above questions? Nearly 0 as far as I can tell.

How come? Too hot there? Air's not good? :lol:

Jew just don't like Jordan.

 

[Zzarchov]

So ... you profess that it's okay for Israel, but it's not okay for the other people whose land it was - and you're calling ME a hypocrite. Zorch, how many faces do you have?

Who exactly is this Israel of which you speak? Israeli people don't exist in a hive mind.

Im not going to blame an Israeli for their Ancestors actions (if their ancestors did anything but legally imigrate) anymore than Im going to blame everyone in this country for their ancestors having the same story.

To do otherwise, would make me a hypocrite. But I re-iterate. If you think modern Israeli citizens have to atone to the descendants of people their ancestors may have wronged, then surely you agree you should atone to natives in this country and give them their land back. Go for it, give your property to them.

 

[Zzarchov]

Every refugee has a right to return home or at least receive compensation (unless the state is Israel apparently).

Can you name one nation other than Israel in which it has to let the descendants of refugees back in?

Can you?

 

[Colpy]

So, could someone please disprove the existence of this stuff?

I really don't want to believe this, despite my unwavering support for Israel.

http://1389blog.com/2008/02/12/evil-in-a-cute-cuddly-package-from-hamas/

If it is true, THIS is who EAO and many others here are supporting......

"nuff said.

 

[jimmoyer]

Colpy, these organizations have screwed over the Palestinians far worse in a psychological way than the zionists have.

 

[lone wolf]

Who exactly is this Israel of which you speak? Israeli people don't exist in a hive mind.

Im not going to blame an Israeli for their Ancestors actions (if their ancestors did anything but legally imigrate) anymore than Im going to blame everyone in this country for their ancestors having the same story.

To do otherwise, would make me a hypocrite. But I re-iterate. If you think modern Israeli citizens have to atone to the descendants of people their ancestors may have wronged, then surely you agree you should atone to natives in this country and give them their land back. Go for it, give your property to them.

You just argued both sides.

Israeli ancestors wandered away. They abandoned Palestine in search of whatever it is rainbow-seekers seek. Many Jewish people remained behind and lived contentedly among their Arabic neighbours. They are the natives - NOT the hoardes of refugees who, after a thousand years of doing whatever it is they do, fled "home" to impose themselves on cousins when the world turned its back on them. European Jewry swept in with a chip on its shoulder and dreams of a Jewish state. Thus, Isreal was born - a constant state of chaos and revenge.

How can descendants, many generations removed, believe they are entitled to rights their ancestors abandoned when they left Palestine? Interesting you should bring the First Nation analogy in to "strengthen" your point. Apples and oranges doesn't work so well. I don't have to atone for anything as I AM native. My forefathers, on the other hand, possibly had to 'fess up on the Happy Hunting Ground with aboriginal forefathers.

If you think modern Palestinians have to atone to the descendants of people who wandered away and abandoned the land - yet Palestinians are in the wrong for objecting as Israeli storm-troopers seize their property and evict them from homes and Arabs are not allowed their own historical (romantic) Persian roots, then you are arguing from two faces.

 

[Zzarchov]

You just argued both sides.

Israeli ancestors wandered away. They abandoned Palestine in search of whatever it is rainbow-seekers seek. Many Jewish people remained behind and lived contentedly among their Arabic neighbours. They are the natives - NOT the hoardes of refugees who, after a thousand years of doing whatever it is they do, fled "home" to impose themselves on cousins when the world turned its back on them. European Jewry swept in with a chip on its shoulder and dreams of a Jewish state. Thus, Isreal was born - a constant state of chaos and revenge.

How can descendants, many generations removed, believe they are entitled to rights their ancestors abandoned when they left Palestine? Interesting you should bring the First Nation analogy in to "strengthen" your point. Apples and oranges doesn't work so well. I don't have to atone for anything as I AM native. My forefathers, on the other hand, possibly had to 'fess up on the Happy Hunting Ground with aboriginal forefathers.

If you think modern Palestinians have to atone to the descendants of people who wandered away and abandoned the land - yet Palestinians are in the wrong for objecting as Israeli storm-troopers seize their property and evict them from homes and Arabs are not allowed their own historical (romantic) Persian roots, then you are arguing from two faces.

There you go, missing the point. It doesn't matter what happened in 1948.

The "Palestinians" are not from Palestine and not from Israel in most cases. Im not arguing any two points.

I don't think anyone who stole land in 1948 had any right to do so. But I think they are dead in 98% of cases. So it doesn't matter.

You keep harping about historical this and historical that. Doesn't matter.

If you are a native, then as I said , you are one of the few entitlted to that view without being a hypocrite. I still think its wrong mind you and don't agree with it. But I have no intention of believing that people are not entitled to live in the land of their birth because of their ancestors actions.

 

[lone wolf]

There you go, missing the point. It doesn't matter what happened in 1948.

The "Palestinians" are not from Palestine and not from Israel in most cases. Im not arguing any two points.

I don't think anyone who stole land in 1948 had any right to do so. But I think they are dead in 98% of cases. So it doesn't matter.

You keep harping about historical this and historical that. Doesn't matter.

If you are a native, then as I said , you are one of the few entitlted to that view without being a hypocrite. I still think its wrong mind you and don't agree with it. But I have no intention of believing that people are not entitled to live in the land of their birth because of their ancestors actions.

From where, then, did these people the Israelis so despise come? If during Israel's ethnic clensing of Palestine they removed people from their homes and olive groves from the land to make room for Jewish settlement, then the Palestinians have as much right to reclaim that land as Indians who lost something tangible. On the other hand - and you keep avoiding the question - what entitles European Jewry to reclaim land their ancestors left?

 

[Zzarchov]

Uh huh. Im not avoiding anything.

People have no right to land they were not born in, unless they have legally immigrated with the government of the land.

That sums it all up and answers all of your questions you repeatedly ask. If you still have questions, apply them to that line. If that does not answer it, then I will answer it. At this point, nothing you have said changes my stance based on that moral rule.

 

[lone wolf]

Uh huh. Im not avoiding anything.

People have no right to land they were not born in, unless they have legally immigrated with the government of the land.

That sums it all up and answers all of your questions you repeatedly ask. If you still have questions, apply them to that line. If that does not answer it, then I will answer it. At this point, nothing you have said changes my stance based on that moral rule.

It answers one question....

Woof!