Hamas attacks Israel

[Ron in Regina]

Yeah…this isn’t gonna happen tonight & I’ll have to come back to this.

Ok, time is limited, but I’ve got a little snippet of time here. Israel is far from the colonial power it is being accused of being since 1967. I know that’s the current narrative.

Yes, it’s a shitty situation, in an almost constant rolling series of wars & disputes, & it’ll probably never end until Israel ceases to exist. Both the Israelis & Palestinians have claims to the same chunks of ground, & they’re either going to have to play nice with each other, or shit’s gonna hit the fan further & to a larger extent than we’ve seen so far in the last 75-ish years.

Israel exited Gaza in 2005, & what did it repeatedly get them? I don’t see Israel ever completely voluntarily exiting what’s currently called the West Bank, so that’s something they’ll (Israel & a future Palestine, if that ever happens) both have to sort out with mutually agreed upon land swaps, etc…

I see what is currently called the “West Bank” as being a illegally occupied by Israel, but other than myself, I don’t think anybody else here has mentioned the fact that Jordan did the same thing previous to Israel (1948-1967) taking that same chunk of land from Jordan (not Palestine) in mid-1967.

When Jordan annexed Judea & Samaria….who did they annex it from?

Jordanian annexation of the West Bank - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Whom did Israel declare its independence from in 1948 (?) which in turn lead to five neighbouring Arab armies to invade Israel?

Anyway, that’s my window and time and I’ve got to go.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

I'm a little more optimistic than you are. Of the Three Big Problems of my adulthood; Israel, Ireland, and South Africa, two have been resolved at least to the point of no organized fighting. SA did it by ending apartheid and establishing the Truth & Reconciliation Commission. Made a whole new country. Ireland did it by the Brits quitting playing footsie with the NI loyalists and cracking down on them, while Ireland gave up on "Free and United." Still divided, far from perfect, but not murdering each other and feeling good about it anymore.

In both cases, people decided they'd rather be alive and rich than dead and. . . dead. We have reason to hope that the Middle East can go the same way.

 

[petros]

Ok, time is limited, but I’ve got a little snippet of time here. Israel is far from the colonial power it is being accused of being since 1967. I know that’s the current narrative.

Yes, it’s a shitty situation, in an almost constant rolling series of wars & disputes, & it’ll probably never end until Israel ceases to exist. Both the Israelis & Palestinians have claims to the same chunks of ground, & they’re either going to have to play nice with each other, or shit’s gonna hit the fan further & to a larger extent than we’ve seen so far in the last 75-ish years.

Israel exited Gaza in 2005, & what did it repeatedly get them? I don’t see Israel ever completely voluntarily exiting what’s currently called the West Bank, so that’s something they’ll (Israel & a future Palestine, if that ever happens) both have to sort out with mutually agreed upon land swaps, etc…

I see what is currently called the “West Bank” as being a illegally occupied by Israel, but other than myself, I don’t think anybody else here has mentioned the fact that Jordan did the same thing previous to Israel (1948-1967) taking that same chunk of land from Jordan (not Palestine) in mid-1967.

When Jordan annexed Judea & Samaria….who did they annex it from?

Jordanian annexation of the West Bank - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Whom did Israel declare its independence from in 1948 (?) which in turn lead to five neighbouring Arab armies to invade Israel?

Anyway, that’s my window and time and I’ve got to go.

It's 2024 Ron. Illegal means illegal even in 1967 or 1948 or 70AD. PERIOD! As a secular Christian you're being used, lied to and emotionally manipulated.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

It's 2024 Ron. Illegal means illegal even in 1967 or 1948 or 70AD. PERIOD! As a secular Christian you're being used, lied to and emotionally manipulated.

In 1948 it was illegal for a Black person to sit at a Whites-only counter in the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave.

Not that it matters much. "Illegal" is a concept that only wishful thinkers and idiots would apply to international relations. Without a neutral decision-maker with authority to enforce its decisions, there is no law.

 

[55Mercury]

Like law on the high seas, internationally watered down.
Might is right.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Like law on the high seas, internationally watered down.
Might is right.

From the mouths of. . . guns.

 

[petros]

In 1948 it was illegal for a Black person to sit at a Whites-only counter in the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave.

Not that it matters much. "Illegal" is a concept that only wishful thinkers and idiots would apply to international relations. Without a neutral decision-maker with authority to enforce its decisions, there is no law.

From the mouths of. . . guns.

You need an update.

The International Criminal Court (ICC) has jurisdiction over the West Bank and other territories occupied by Israel since 1967:
ICC investigation

In 2021, the ICC opened a formal investigation into alleged war crimes in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem since June 2014. The ICC has the authority to prosecute those accused of war crimes, genocide, and crimes against humanity.

ICC jurisdiction
The ICC Pre-Trial Chamber I ruled in February 2021 that the ICC has jurisdiction over the territories. The court's decision rejected Israel's argument to the contrary.

ICC victims
The ICC allows victims to participate in judicial proceedings and receive reparations if convicted. Victims can communicate with the ICC's Office of the Prosecutor to share information about alleged crimes.

The ICC's jurisdiction is based on the Rome Statute, the ICC's founding treaty. The ICC is the first permanent international criminal court.
Other developments related to the occupation of the West Bank include:

In July 2024, the International Court of Justice (ICJ) ruled that Israel's occupation of the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem is unlawful. The ICJ also ruled that Israel's settlement policy amounts to annexation.

The UN Commission says that international law obligates the UN, member states, and international organizations to end Israel's unlawful presence in the Occupied Palestinian Territory.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

How many battalions does the ICC have?

 

[petros]

How many battalions does the ICC have?

All of them cuz it's illegal. Same goes for attacking UNFIL and restricting UN aid.

 

[petros]

After U.S. Ultimatum, United Nations Aid Trucks Enter North Gaza for First Time in 40 Days

According to Palestinian reports, the IDF attacked immediately after trucks entered, so it remains unclear whether they reached their destination

Nir Hasson
Nov 15, 2024 1:18 am IST

For the first time in 40 days, three UN food trucks entered the besieged town of Beit Hanoun in the north Gaza Strip

3 trucks? So kind of them to allow aid they lied about stopping creating a crisis. Another war crime.

It wouldn't have been a war crime had Israel declared war on Palestine instead of Hamas but that would be admitting openly that Palestine exists as it does in the eyes of the civilized world and inexcusable to halt humanitarian services.

Its why Ukraine can legally cross the border into Russia without it being a war crime. Even with Ruskies using Ruskies as human shields Ukraine didnt level entire towns to get 2 Russians whilst killing 120 civilians. Ukraine is maintaing all the civil services. Power, water food, health, education and even postal services.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Damn… not even Canada has postal services at this point.

 

[petros]

Damn… not even Canada has postal services at this point.

How will I get my burger coupons and Canadian Tire flyers?

 

[Ron in Regina]

After U.S. Ultimatum, United Nations Aid Trucks Enter North Gaza for First Time in 40 Days

Are the UN Trucks the only trucks bringing aid to Gaza? Sorry, North Gaza?

For the first time in 40 days, three UN food trucks entered the besieged town of Beit Hanoun in the north Gaza Strip

3 trucks? So kind of them to allow aid they lied about stopping creating a crisis. Another war crime.

Three UN food trucks entered the besieged town of Beit Hanoun in the north Gaza Strip. OK. What about food trucks entering and delivering food to other places in Gaza? Or north Gaza?

 

[petros]

Where do aid levels stand?​

Aid into Gaza is typically measured in terms of truckloads of food and supplies entering the territory. The U.S. has demanded 350 trucks daily — still below the 500 a day that entered before the war.

In October, aid entry plunged to its lowest level since the first month of the war. Israeli government figures show roughly 57 trucks a day entering on average. The average has risen to 100 a day so far in November, slightly lower than the same month last year.

The U.N., however, says even less is entering. It reports receiving an average of 39 trucks daily since the beginning of October. This is largely because it says it cannot reach the main crossing point in the south to collect cargos due to Israeli military restrictions and lawlessness.

The U.N. says virtually no food or other aid has reached the northernmost part of Gaza since the beginning of October. That’s when the Israeli military launched a major offensive against Hamas fighters in the area of Jabaliya, Beit Lahiya and Beit Hanoun, cutting them off.

Israel says October’s drop in aid was because it closed crossings into Gaza during the Jewish high holidays. It said it couldn’t allow deliveries to the far north in October because of the fighting.

Under international pressure, COGAT allowed two deliveries to the far north this month.

But little of it got through. Last week, the World Food Program said troops on the ground ordered its trucks to unload their cargo before reaching their destination. In another planned shipment on Monday, the WFP could only deliver three out of 14 trucks because of delays in getting movement permits from the troops. When it tried to deliver the rest the next day, it said the military denied permission.

Denial of passage and entry​

One reason for the large difference between Israel’s and the U.N.’s count of aid trucks entering Gaza: Hundreds of truckloads are piled up on the Gaza side of the main crossing in the south, uncollected by the U.N. for distribution.

Israel accuses UNRWA, the U.N. agency for Palestinian refugees, of not doing enough to retrieve the cargos.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Ok, What are the borders of Palestine based off of then? Just curious? The borders as of today? 1967? 1966? 1948? Etc…? What is Israel leaving based upon what criteria? I’m not saying you’re wrong, but I’m saying I don’t know & have questions, & I am probably not the only one.

67 is when the occupation of West Bank and Gaza started as posted above.

Started by whom? Jordan & Egypt? Oh wait, they were already being occupied (Gaza by Egypt, & the West Bank by Jordan) since…not ‘67…but ‘49. Hmmm…so why 1967 for your point? Because it’s not Muslims occupying Gaza & the West Bank while ignoring those who identify as Palestinians?

Tens of thousands of US citizens are among the 700,000 Jewish residents of illegal settlements in the occupied West Bank.

Occupying another's lands violates Geneva Convention. Israel doesnt recognize the ICC, should occupied Palestine recognize it?

Is Azov a terrorist group or military?

Who’s occupying whose land, according to what? Israel wasn’t in Gaza on Oct 6th, but Palestinians & Hamas & Friends were sure in Israel Oct 7th.

Or are you going back to 1967 borders, 1948 borders, 1919 borders, etc…? Or are you referring to something else again that you haven’t expanded upon yet?

Is it ‘cuz Israel is on land that’s between the Jordan River or the Mediterranean Sea?

Is it ‘cuz the 1967 borders changed with that war? Is it ‘cuz the 1948 borders changed with that war?

Palestine. Is Gaza not Palestine? Are they (Palestinians) declaring independence by any chance? What year borders should they claim? 1947?

What are Palestine’s borders? What are Israel’s borders? Depends on who you talk to I guess. Is Gaza part of Palestine? Is Israel part of Palestine? From the river to the sea, money for nothing and the chicks for free?

From 1948 to mid-1967….


But…but illegally occupied territory?

Yes, it’s a shitty situation, in an almost constant rolling series of wars & disputes, & it’ll probably never end until Israel ceases to exist. Both the Israelis & Palestinians have claims to the same chunks of ground, & they’re either going to have to play nice with each other, or shit’s gonna hit the fan further & to a larger extent than we’ve seen so far in the last 75-ish years.

I see what is currently called the “West Bank” as being a illegally occupied by Israel, but other than myself, I don’t think anybody else here has mentioned the fact that Jordan did the same thing previous to Israel (1948-1967) taking that same chunk of land from Jordan (not Palestine) in mid-1967.

When Jordan annexed Judea & Samaria….who did they annex it from?

…& yes, Jordan did eventually walk away from their claim on the West Bank in 1988, over two decades after Israel (not Palestine) took it away from them (from Jordan & not from Palestine), in 1967.

Whom did Israel declare its independence from in 1948 (?) which in turn lead to five neighbouring Arab armies to invade Israel?

Loading…

www.reuters.com

 

[petros]

Dude. Its 2024. 1948 or whatever doesnt make the illegal occupation of 57 years go away.

The State of Palestine is a partially recognized sovereign state, similar to Kosovo and Taiwan, which is currently classified as a "non-member observer state" by the United Nations. As of April 2022, Palestine 138 of the United Nations' 193 members (and one observer) have recognized Palestine.

https://worldpopulationreview.com › ...
Countries that Recognize Palestine 2024 - World Population Review

Does China have a delusional right to invade and occupy Taiwan?

 

[Ron in Regina]

Dude. Its 2024. 1948 or whatever doesnt make the illegal occupation of 57 years go away.

The State of Palestine is a partially recognized sovereign state, similar to Kosovo and Taiwan, which is currently classified as a "non-member observer state" by the United Nations. As of April 2022, Palestine 138 of the United Nations' 193 members (and one observer) have recognized Palestine.

https://worldpopulationreview.com › ...
Countries that Recognize Palestine 2024 - World Population Review

Assuming the two-state solution actually eventually happens. What happens?

Do Israel & Palestine (whomever controls what chunks, etc…) negotiate something between themselves (?) or some outside entity dictates what will happen?

Do the Palestinians/PLO/Hamas/Islamic Jahad, etc…recognize Israel as a thing that exists & can continue to exist (?) & not just on an “interim” basis? Or is that not relevant in negotiations/treaties, etc…? Does the “From the River to the Sea!” go away, or just festers until Israel no longer exists?

Then the West Bank that both claim & occupy. Land swaps or not quarter, etc…?

Then security, mutual & individual, nationally?

 

[petros]

Assuming the two-state solution actually eventually happens. What happens?

Do Israel & Palestine (whomever controls what chunks, etc…) negotiate something between themselves (?) or some outside entity dictates what will happen?

Do the Palestinians/PLO/Hamas/Islamic Jahad, etc…recognize Israel as a thing that exists & can continue to exist (?) & not just on an “interim” basis? Or is that not relevant in negotiations/treaties, etc…? Does the “From the River to the Sea!” go away, or just festers until Israel no longer exists?

Then the West Bank that both claim & occupy. Land swaps or not quarter, etc…?

Then security, mutual & individual, nationally?

What happened when the terrorists Irgun became the Govt of Israel?

King David Hotel bombing - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Ron in Regina]

What happened when the terrorists Irgun became the Govt of Israel?

You’re answering a question with a question, so what did happen?

I’m talking about after the latest inning of this current goat rodeo, assuming both sides want peace over martyring their children.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

What happened when the terrorists Irgun became the Govt of Israel?

King David Hotel bombing - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Same thing that happened when the traitors in Philadelphia won.