There is the evidence.

[Serryah]

This was my example:
You know the site of the hospital, and you know that a man wants to go to the hospital, and you want to guide him to the hospital: so he is free to follow you or not; but God's guidance is that He lets that man be convinced of you to lead him to the hospital.

And your example was flawed, because it was.

You only see what you want to see, and blind yourself to all else. If that is not proof that you are not a true believer, that you have no true faith in your faith, I don't know what is.

God gave us brains to use and allowed us to grow and evolve, so we could use them. Pretty sure God doesn't want full on sheep who will follow ANY person who claims to serve Him. And that is what you're doing.

 

[Torch light]

The many ayat which I display, indicate the Quran gives many arguments against the claims of disbelievers: both idolaters and atheists, to disprove their falsehood, however and whatever they cunningly wrangle and dispute.

 

[Torch light]

These ayat in the Quran 22: 3-4 are related to your wrangling:

[And it was revealed concerning the idolaters among the Arab, who said about the Quran, that “it is the fables of the ancient”, and said “the angels are God’s daughters”, and said: “following death, there is no sending to the Hereafter”:]
(3. Among people is he who disputes about God without knowledge, and follows every corrupt a impostor b.
4. It is decreed that whoever ‘follows and likes’ that [devilish impostor], he will misguide him [away from the truth] and will lead him to the torment of the Blaze [: in Hell.])
.................................................................................................................................................................................

a i.e. one devoid of every kind of good.
b i.e. every cunning liar.

http://quran-ayat.com/pret/22.htm#a22_3

 

[Serryah]

These ayat in the Quran 22: 3-4 are related to your wrangling:

[And it was revealed concerning the idolaters among the Arab, who said about the Quran, that “it is the fables of the ancient”, and said “the angels are God’s daughters”, and said: “following death, there is no sending to the Hereafter”:]
(3. Among people is he who disputes about God without knowledge, and follows every corrupt a impostor b.
4. It is decreed that whoever ‘follows and likes’ that [devilish impostor], he will misguide him [away from the truth] and will lead him to the torment of the Blaze [: in Hell.])
.................................................................................................................................................................................

a i.e. one devoid of every kind of good.
b i.e. every cunning liar.

http://quran-ayat.com/pret/22.htm#a22_3

Again, not going to debate or even acknowledge your cherry picking of Ayat's just to fit your point. I'd rather read the full context myself and go from there.

At least then I won't have anyone else's interpretation of it.

 

[Torch light]

If you are an Arab, you can read the Quran, because it is Arabic.
So go and read it and contemplate its revelations.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

If you are an Arab, you can read the Quran, because it is Arabic.

If you can read.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

The evidence is that if we see a house with rooms and other parts, we will be certain there is someone who built it.
This is true of the solar system and the rest of the universe, there must be the Creator Who created all that.

Ah, the old argument from design again. It doesn't work very well, essentially because when you look closely the design isn't really very good and a designer isn't necessary to explain any of it. From an engineering standpoint, for instance, the human body is a terrible piece of design, which you as a doctor certainly should be aware of. On the larger scale, the solar system is generally inimical to life like us, there's only one place in it where we can live without major technology to preserve and protect us, and even large parts of the Earth are pretty dangerous to unprotected human life. But even granting the design argument, that there must have been an intelligent creator who put it all together, all your work is still ahead of you, because it doesn't demonstrate that the creator is necessarily the deity promulgated by Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The deity might have just set up the initial conditions then withdrawn to let things work themselves out without ongoing interaction and attention. You have no evidence to the contrary, or if you do you've never presented it here.

 

[Jinentonix]

Quran 67: 29, which means:
(Say, [O Mohammed, to the disbelievers]:
"It is He the Most Gracious: we have believed in Him [alone, as having no associate nor any son or daughter],
and in Him we put [all] our trust [in preaching the religion of the Islam];
then [after your death] you, will know which [of us] is in manifest error [: we or you.])

http://quran-ayat.com/pret/67.htm#a67_29

The evidence is that if we see a house with rooms and other parts, we will be certain there is someone who built it.
This is true of the solar system and the rest of the universe, there must be the Creator Who created all that.

Logical fallacy. You're assuming that because A=B, then C must also equal B.

 

[petros]

It's time for a new book. A "fuck tonne" has been revealed by Allahpeanutbuttersandwiches in the past couple millenia.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

If you are an Arab, you can read the Quran, because it is Arabic.
So go and read it and contemplate its revelations.

Most of the world's people cannot read Arabic, so the notion that the only truly definitive text is in Arabic leaves the revelations unavailable to most of the world, which as I've said before is not a good way to sell the product. Moreover, many Islamic sites, like Mecca, are closed to unbelievers. Both of those render Islam's claim to universality problematic. And as if that weren't bad enough, paraphrasing Christopher Hitchens from memory here, much of the Quran, closely examined by anyone familiar with Jewish and Christian scripture, is an obvious and badly organized plagiarism. Islam makes huge claims about itself as the final revelation that supersedes all others, demands prostration of its followers, and demands respect and deference from non-believers, with a credible threat of violence (remember the Danish newspaper cartoons? Salman Rushdie?) for those who refuse. There has never been an attempt, ever, to challenge or even investigate Islam's claims that hasn't been met with immediate and harsh repression. There's nothing in it that could justify such arrogant presumption.

 

[Torch light]

The Quran was revealed in Arabic, because the messenger was an Arab and his people were Arab. And it is not logical that the Quran might be revealed in another language.

Quran 41: 44, which means:
(Had We made it a Quran in a foreign [non-Arabic language], the [people of Mecca] would have said: "Why have not its revelations been expounded [in Arabic so that we can understand their meaning and know their implication]?
How can [the Quran] be in a foreign [non-Arabic language], and [the messenger] be an Arabian?"

Say, [Mohammed, to them]: "The [Quran], to those who believe, is a guidance and healing; [whereas] those, who disbelieve, have an 'impairment and deafness‘ in their ears, and it is a blindness for them.")

N.B. I write the Quran meaning in blue only to make a distinction from other words; it is not necessary to be written in blue or another color.

In fact, I have replied to these objections many times before: the Quran in Arabic, the plagiarism as you call it: because God Who revealed the Torah, the Bible, and the Quran is the same One God. Moreover, the Quran being the recent one: included some moderation according to the time and the culture of people: like the difference in many rites like the fasting and the prayers and the correction of many mistakes that inflicted the past Torah and Gospel.

Quran 2: 106, which means:
(Such of the revelations [of the Torah] as We may annul a [in the Quran] or preserve b , We will bring [in the Quran] one better than it c or one similar to it d .
Don't you know that God has the power to do all that He wills? e)
...................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

a i.e. any statement of the Torah which We invalidate (or put out of action) for you, Muslims.
b i.e. or We leave the law of the Torah aya as it is in the Torah: i.e. We impose it on you.
c i.e. better than that law and easier than it: in order to alleviate that for you, Muslims.
d i.e. We bring to you a statement similar to the statement of that aya of the Torah which has not been annulled.
e So that He will bring to you, statements that are easier and milder than the statements of the Torah. Therefore, the "abrogated" is that which is in the Torah, and the Quran is the "abrogating" or annulling of such laws.

http://quran-ayat.com/pret/2.htm#a2_106

 

[Serryah]

The Quran was revealed in Arabic, because the messenger was an Arab and his people were Arab. And it is not logical that the Quran might be revealed in another language.

Quran 41: 44, which means:
(Had We made it a Quran in a foreign [non-Arabic language], the [people of Mecca] would have said: "Why have not its revelations been expounded [in Arabic so that we can understand their meaning and know their implication]?
How can [the Quran] be in a foreign [non-Arabic language], and [the messenger] be an Arabian?"

Say, [Mohammed, to them]: "The [Quran], to those who believe, is a guidance and healing; [whereas] those, who disbelieve, have an 'impairment and deafness‘ in their ears, and it is a blindness for them.")

N.B. I write the Quran meaning in blue only to make a distinction from other words; it is not necessary to be written in blue or another color.

In fact, I have replied to these objections many times before: the Quran in Arabic, the plagiarism as you call it: because God Who revealed the Torah, the Bible, and the Quran is the same One God. Moreover, the Quran being the recent one: included some moderation according to the time and the culture of people: like the difference in many rites like the fasting and the prayers and the correction of many mistakes that inflicted the past Torah and Gospel.

Quran 2: 106, which means:
(Such of the revelations [of the Torah] as We may annul a [in the Quran] or preserve b , We will bring [in the Quran] one better than it c or one similar to it d .
Don't you know that God has the power to do all that He wills? e)
...................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

a i.e. any statement of the Torah which We invalidate (or put out of action) for you, Muslims.
b i.e. or We leave the law of the Torah aya as it is in the Torah: i.e. We impose it on you.
c i.e. better than that law and easier than it: in order to alleviate that for you, Muslims.
d i.e. We bring to you a statement similar to the statement of that aya of the Torah which has not been annulled.
e So that He will bring to you, statements that are easier and milder than the statements of the Torah. Therefore, the "abrogated" is that which is in the Torah, and the Quran is the "abrogating" or annulling of such laws.

http://quran-ayat.com/pret/2.htm#a2_106

And it was translated.

Just like other religious texts.

So again, it's no different than those at this point.

Unless you want to admit the Torah - which is supposed to be word for word copied from the original - is fake?

 

[Torch light]

Ah, the old argument from design again. It doesn't work very well, essentially because when you look closely the design isn't really very good and a designer isn't necessary to explain any of it. From an engineering standpoint, for instance, the human body is a terrible piece of design, which you as a doctor certainly should be aware of. On the larger scale, the solar system is generally inimical to life like us, there's only one place in it where we can live without major technology to preserve and protect us, and even large parts of the Earth are pretty dangerous to unprotected human life. But even granting the design argument, that there must have been an intelligent creator who put it all together, all your work is still ahead of you, because it doesn't demonstrate that the creator is necessarily the deity promulgated by Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The deity might have just set up the initial conditions then withdrawn to let things work themselves out without ongoing interaction and attention. You have no evidence to the contrary, or if you do you've never presented it here.

All this is wrong. And you evade the fact, that there should be a builder of the house.

Moreover, none can deny the marvelous creation of the human body, and its marvelous physiology: the heart that beats till death, all other organs work in a very strict and correct way; only the ignorant might say it is a terrible piece of design.

The solar system has not been completely discovered; only the ignorant, not you the physicist, might say such words: on the contrary, it is excellent in every aspect, and according to its marvelous creation: scientists can predict the solar and lunar eclipses tens of years beforehand.

Quran 55: 5, which means:
(The sun and the moon are made punctual.c)
..............................................................................................................................................

c i.e. they run their courses according to perfect calculations.

http://quran-ayat.com/pret/55.htm#a55_5

 

[Torch light]

And it was translated.

Just like other religious texts.

So again, it's no different than those at this point.

Unless you want to admit the Torah - which is supposed to be word for word copied from the original - is fake?

I said to you the Quran is available in Arabic; while the original Torah and the original Gospel in their original languages are lost.

 

[petros]

I said to you the Quran is available in Arabic; while the original Torah and the original Gospel in their original languages are lost.

Hebrew and Greek arent lost.

 

[Serryah]

I said to you the Quran is available in Arabic; while the original Torah and the original Gospel in their original languages are lost.

Actually no they're not. The Torah is copied word for word, letter for letter, sound for sound - in that copiests actually have to say the words to write the Torah - by it's scholars.

It's no different than the Quran in that sense.

So it's just as legitimate as the Quran.

Unless you want to agree that the Quran is just as fallible as the Torah because of it being copied as well over centuries? Because the Arabic of today is NOT the Arabic of Mohammed, that's for darn sure.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Like the Prairie Cree then? Forty words for ‘Snow’ and none for ‘Pawn Shop?’

 

[Dexter Sinister]

All this is wrong. And you evade the fact, that there should be a builder of the house.

No, it didn't seem worth commenting on, of course there's a builder of the house, that's obvious. What's not obvious is where the creator came from, you keep saying all things require a creator then claim there's one thing that doesn't, so by that logic clearly not all things require a creator. And if you're going to take the line that the creator has always existed, you might as well just say the cosmos has always existed and be done with it, instead of trying to avoid the infinite regress of your original claim by postulating one exception to it.

Moreover, none can deny the marvelous creation of the human body, and its marvelous physiology: the heart that beats till death, all other organs work in a very strict and correct way; only the ignorant might say it is a terrible piece of design.

You, a doctor, who presumably spends his working days dealing with all the things that can go wrong with it, can say that? You're fooling yourself, or in denial. It IS a terrible design, and in fact shows no signs of being designed at all, it's just a structure cobbled together from whatever was available. The eyes are built backwards, for instance, the light sensing cells are behind layers of tissue, including blood vessels and nerves (one of which creates a blind spot in each eye) and face away from the direction of incoming light, the knees bend in only two directions yet are at the juncture of two of the longest levers and some of the strongest muscles in the body, and thus are prone to injury, there are multiple bones in the foot and ankle held together by soft tissue which renders it easily damaged, the spine is very poorly structured for walking upright and almost all adults eventually suffer from lower back pain because of it, eating and breathing pass through the same structure, the pharynx, which guarantees some few of us will routinely choke to death unless somebody nearby happens to know the Heimlich maneuver, and our reproductive and excretory organs are structured like an open sewer through a recreation area.

The solar system has not been completely discovered; only the ignorant, not you the physicist, might say such words: on the contrary, it is excellent in every aspect, and according to its marvelous creation: scientists can predict the solar and lunar eclipses tens of years beforehand.

Actually science can do much better than that at calculating eclipses, but it's not relevant to the point. I made no claims about the solar system being completely discovered, or lacking excellence in any respect, I just pointed out that there's no place in it humans can live naturally except the Earth, anyplace else would be quickly fatal.

 

[Torch light]

No, it didn't seem worth commenting on, of course there's a builder of the house, that's obvious.

So stick to this; there is the Creator certainly.

What's not obvious is where the creator came from,

The Creator is eternal, none created Him: none begot Him, neither did He beget anyone.
This is above the imagination and the mind of man, including me and you and everyone else.
But to His existence and might: it is undoubtedly certain.

It IS a terrible design, and in fact shows no signs of being designed at all, it's just a structure cobbled together from whatever was available.

??

The eyes are built backwards, for instance, the light sensing cells are behind layers of tissue, including blood vessels and nerves (one of which creates a blind spot in each eye) and face away from the direction of incoming light,

The eye is the miracle in fact, and none can do better; your suggestions are very wrong.

the knees bend in only two directions yet are at the juncture of two of the longest levers and some of the strongest muscles in the body, and thus are prone to injury,

The knee is the miracle: do you want the knee to rotate, instead of being firm, especially by the patella?

there are multiple bones in the foot and ankle held together by soft tissue which renders it easily damaged,

Marvelous physiology.
By the way, the foot has 3D arches, which enable man to stand erect and to walk and run easily without shocking the brain and other vital body organs.

the spine is very poorly structured for walking upright and almost all adults eventually suffer from lower back pain because of it

The spine is an excellent creation.

, eating and breathing pass through the same structure, the pharynx, which guarantees some few of us will routinely choke to death unless somebody nearby happens to know the Heimlich maneuver,

That physiology is marvelous, particularly the existence of the epiglottis.

and our reproductive and excretory organs are structured like an open sewer through a recreation area.

Fine structures and miraculously created.
Or do you want man to be a god? That he does not die, and is unlimited in every aspect.
Man is created as a created man, the best creation about which scientists strive to discover its secrets, with their modest knowledge.
And scientists admit their ignorance about the human body's physiology, anatomy, and histology.

Actually science can do much better than that at calculating eclipses, but it's not relevant to the point.

It is relevant: the precise creation of the movement of the sun, moon, earth, and the rest of the planets.

I made no claims about the solar system being completely discovered, or lacking excellence in any respect, I just pointed out that there's no place in it humans can live naturally except the Earth, anyplace else would be quickly fatal.

And I said: their knowledge is defective now about the solar system, which is mysterious in many aspects and respects.
So with the exception of Mercury and Venus, the rest of the planets can bear life: (in spite of that it is not yet discovered.)
Mars: clouds, clear atmosphere, ice on tops of mountains, seasonal alterations of gulfs.
Planets: different axis inclinations with more exposure to sunlight and sun heat in some zones, particularly the distant planets.
Water is at least suspected on the moons of some planets.
You may have the right to say: life has not been discovered yet, but you have no right to say: there can never be life on the planets or their moons.

 

[Serryah]

and our reproductive and excretory organs are structured like an open sewer through a recreation area.

I read Anne McCaffrey's Dragonriders of Pern series and in one of the books when the Geneticists are first discussing dragons, they're talking about the human body and she makes a comment about how poorly designed it is, and points out this exact thought.

Even fictional scientists know humans aren't exactly the best designed species.