Gun Control is Completely Useless.

[JamesBondo]

Of course not.

Nobody believes that.

Do I believe it has to stop mass shooters in order to be a valid form of gun control?

ROTFLMAO!!

The Court in*R v Oakes*created a two-step balancing test to determine whether a government can justify a law which limits a*Charter*right.

1.****The government must establish that the law under review has a goal that is both*“pressing and substantial.”*The law must be both important and necessary. Governments are usually successful in this first step.

2.**The court then conducts a*proportionality analysis*using three sub-tests.

a.*The government must first establish that the provision of the law which limits a*Charter*right is*rationally connected*to the law’s purpose. If it is arbitrary or serves no logical purpose, then it will not meet this standard.

b.*Secondly, a provision must*minimally impair*the violated*Charter*right. A provision that limits a*Charter*right will be constitutional only if it impairs the*Charter*right as little as possible or is “within a range of reasonably supportable alternatives.”[4]*

c.*Finally, the court examines the law’s*proportionate effects. Even if the government can satisfy the above steps, the effect of the provision on*Charter*rights may be too high a price to pay for the advantage the provision would provide in advancing the law’s purpose.*

Of course, Americans feel their right to bare arms gives them a more absolute right. Many tend to think the Oaks test is asinine. While I like the Oakes test, I do not feel inclined to disagree with the Americans.

 

[JLM]

Of course, Americans feel their right to bare arms gives them a more absolute right.

Also makes them more susceptible to sun burns!

 

[Bar Sinister]

I can give you Step One off the top of my head: treating all gun homicides (or even gun deaths) as a single phenomenon, assuming there's a single solution, obviously doesn't work, and is therefore a flawed and ineffective approach.

Now, here's a question for you. You seem to think that banning guns is the solution. Given that gun ownership polls above 70% favorable in every poll conducted, how do you expect a democracy to ban guns?

Here's another: given that there are upwards of 300,000,000 guns in private hands in the U.S., exactly how do you propose to round 'em all up?

I suggest you look really hard and see if you can find the word "ban" in any of my posts. What I would like is proper regulation of firearms and proper screening of applicants. I own guns. I've never fired them, but I hang on to them because they are family heirlooms. And I had to go through a strict registration process to keep them.

Secondly, do you think the people of El Salvador, Honduras and Venezuela are violent because there are not white, or because they are poor?

Are you racist or elitist?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Now you're just sounding stupid. What the hell does racism have to do with a country like Honduras, Venezuela, and El Salvador, three counties who have a high rate of gun violence due to the free availability of guns smuggled in from the US and other nations?

As for suicide - yes. Many people who attempt suicide fail or back out at the last second. Many of those who fail never attempt it again. Those who attempt suicide using guns have a very high death rate and if they fail are often severely injured. And here is another bit of info for you

A new reportby the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, a gun safety advocacy group, delivers sobering stats based on data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and academic journal articles—perhaps the most eye-opening being that keeping a firearm at home increases the risk of suicide by three times. A whopping 82 percent of teens who commit suicide with a gun are using a family member’s firearm.

You are free to try and prove it wrong, but I am betting you can't.

And why did you use that statistical data in your argument? That is where I got my numbers. All you are doing is proving me right.

 

[JLM]

What if every gun was confiscated from the planet? What then? It wouldn't solve anything! Oh, I guess it would solve one problem....................people wouldn't be getting shot to death! (By a gun)

 

[Colpy]

Now you're just sounding stupid. What the hell does racism have to do with a country like Honduras, Venezuela, and El Salvador, three counties who have a high rate of gun violence due to the free availability of guns smuggled in from the US and other nations?

Seriously?

Seriously?

You didn't think this through, did you?

If the guns are smuggled, then the law doesn't touch them.. Which is our point. Honest gun owners are harrassed because of weapons outside their control, or the control of the state.

As for suicide - yes. Many people who attempt suicide fail or back out at the last second. Many of those who fail never attempt it again. Those who attempt suicide using guns have a very high death rate and if they fail are often severely injured. And here is another bit of info for you

Yeah right. From Switzerland's neighbours, plus Canada.

Suicides per 100,000

Europe overall 11.9

France 12.3
Austria 11.7
Switzerland 10.7
Canada 10.4
Germany 9.1
Italy 5.4

Obviously, the suicide rate in Switzerland is not out of the norm for the area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

A new reportby the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, a gun safety advocacy group, delivers sobering stats based on data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and academic journal articles—perhaps the most eye-opening being that keeping a firearm at home increases the risk of suicide by three times. A whopping 82 percent of teens who commit suicide with a gun are using a family member’s firearm.

If the Brady Center told be water was wet, I'd have to take a shower to confirm it.And, exactly how would you prevent suicide by gun?

I have no problems with you until you get to the part about the lack of a license not preventing mayhem. That can't be the litmus test or nothing would ever be a law. There is no law that could ever prevent mayhem.

.

Hmmm. OK.

I used "mayhem" in the broadest sense. I was not referring to mass shootings necessarily, but also to simple street violence.

I wish like hell that Canada had some sort of a firearms expert who could tell us how to prevent this - but all of them seem to be too busy arguing about bullshit.

Our entire point is that the vast majority of idiotic gun control is based on the philosophy "We have to do something!!!!". Unfortunately that mindset totally ignores the effectiveness of law, and the lessening of liberty and the shrinking of individual rights, all sacrificed on the altar of "doing something".

 

[JamesBondo]

So.....what you're saying is that it doesn't matter if the control has any effect, you just want control?

Colpy, I see your point.

Any law where the goal is a mediocre general 'let's get more control' is likely violating several principles outlined in the Oakes test.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

I suggest you look really hard and see if you can find the word "ban" in any of my posts. What I would like is proper regulation of firearms and proper screening of applicants. I own guns. I've never fired them, but I hang on to them because they are family heirlooms. And I had to go through a strict registration process to keep them.

In all sober seriousness, and all the gun nuttery/anti-gun nuttery aside, I strongly encourage you to take them down to the range 3-4 times a year and fire off a few rounds, then give 'em a good cleaning. If you're going to have them, you have an obligation to keep up your proficiency.

 

[petros]

Something tells me loud noises make her cower.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Something tells me loud noises make her cower.

The cure for that is to get used to it. I've taught cowering women (and men) to shoot with confidence and competence. So has Colpy. It ain't hard.

 

[DaSleeper]

I brought both my son and my daughter to the indoor range for some target shooting with a .357 (mild target handloads to start with)
My son showed little interest, and my daughter, since she was a natural and could have been a crack shot if she kept at it, was mildly interested..
After they left home, neither of them had any more interest.....

"c'est la vie"

 

[Hoid]

Seriously?



I used "mayhem" in the broadest sense. I was not referring to mass shootings necessarily, but also to simple street violence.



Our entire point is that the vast majority of idiotic gun control is based on the philosophy "We have to do something!!!!". Unfortunately that mindset totally ignores the effectiveness of law, and the lessening of liberty and the shrinking of individual rights, all sacrificed on the altar of "doing something".

What you are doing is suggesting that in order to be acceptable to you a gun control law will have to eliminate violence and effectively "solve" the gun problem.

That isn't going to happen. No set of laws or rules can do that or should be expected to do that.

Is there any action Canada can take to reduce gun violence - or are we just stuck with it like America?

 

[bluebyrd35]

I brought both my son and my daughter to the indoor range for some target shooting with a .357 (mild target handloads to start with)
My son showed little interest, and my daughter, since she was a natural and could have been a crack shot if she kept at it, was mildly interested..
After they left home, neither of them had any more interest.....

"c'est la vie"

Yah the younger generation have much higher goals that their parents.

 

[Hoid]

What if every gun was confiscated from the planet? What then? It wouldn't solve anything! Oh, I guess it would solve one problem....................people wouldn't be getting shot to death! (By a gun)

The gun is the perfect weapon for killing people.It has never been displaced as number one and frankly never will be. Maybe this ion beam thing will work too but the gun a marvel of simple technology. Anyone can use one. Cheap and effective. Durable. Portable. It can kill a person so much better than a club or a stick or a knife or a sword.

Give me a sword I might be able to kill a couple of people. Give me a gun and suddenly I can kill lots of them.

So obviously the removal of guns from society would not eliminate the evil in men's hearts - but murder rates would plummet.

 

[TenPenny]

Yep. I know.

The Nanny State must hold sway over all.

And you're right, criminals ignore the law. Which is one of the big reasons gun control is a waste of time.

By that logic, all laws are a waste of time.

 

[Hoid]

By that logic, all laws are a waste of time.

except background checks - for some unknown reason background checks are reasonable.

I brought both my son and my daughter to the indoor range for some target shooting with a .357 (mild target handloads to start with)
My son showed little interest, and my daughter, since she was a natural and could have been a crack shot if she kept at it, was mildly interested..
After they left home, neither of them had any more interest.....

"c'est la vie"

Just about nobody in Canada is a hand gun fan. Just has never been a thing here.

There are only about 22% of households that have a gun at all and only about 12% of those have a handgun. So we are talking 3% of Canadian homes?

So I guess we know why illegal handguns from America are used in 70% of shootings in Toronto.

There just aren't enough Canadian handguns to steal.

 

[DaSleeper]

Yah the younger generation have much higher goals that their parents.

It is well known in this forum that your conclusions are fanciful delusions.....



There you go Avro..............

 

[JLM]

It is well known in this forum that your conclusions are fanciful delusions.....



.......

Comes with age, Sleepy!

 

[bluebyrd35]

Really, ..... geez & I figured it is just the gun and climate control threads were where the less mentally strong hung out ......However, I do believe most of your views are held by a very small Canadian minority. Stands to reason as the majority of Canadians are very intelligent.

JLM,,,You had better hope not as that would really put both of you even lower on the intellectual scale.

 

[DaSleeper]

And the rest of us actually DO what know-it-all intellectuals can only dream of doing.....

 

[bluebyrd35]

And the rest of us actually DO what know-it-all intellectuals can only dream of doing.....

List things other than taking pride in owning and using arms. We await the great list with bated breath