Gun Control is Completely Useless.

Colpy

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Okay folks, I went crazy.

I got thinking about the insistence of the anti-gun folks that we don't want to be like the AMERICANS, with no gun control, and blood running in the streets! I had read that murder was so high in American ghettoes that it skewed national figures, as (obviously) there could be social causes for murder in those circumstances.........SOOOOOO

I went looking to isolate two populations, as close as possible in population make-up, culture, etc, with the ONLY difference being gun control laws. I settled on the west, the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and Alberta in Canada, and the three American states that border them, Montana, North Dakota, and Minnesota. These seemed to be the best examples, as they are the two areas of Canada and the United States that are the most alike in population culture, etc., yet most different in gun legislation.

Let me lay it out for you.

In Canada, before you buy a long gun, you must pass a safety course, undergo an investigation, get references including your spouse, obtain a license, and register the firearm. Most military semi-autos are prohibited. Semi-auto rifles can only have magazines with 5 rounds

In these states, if you want the semi-auto version of the American military M-16, you walk into the gun store, put down your cash, buy the piece and as many 30 round magazines as you like. You wait a federally-mandated 7 days, and go get your rifle. No license, no registration, no course, any rifle is OK.

In Canada, the vast majority of handguns are prohibited. If you want a handgun, you must either be a collector, or a target shooter. Self-defense is NOT allowed. You must have a long gun license (see above), pass ANOTHER course, and register your pistol. You must belong to a gun club, and you are ONLY allowed to transfer the weapon back and forth from the club to home, it must be trigger locked, and in a locked case.

If you want a handgun in any of these states, it is exactly the same as the process for buying a military "assault" rifle in the Sates, as laid out above. No license, no registration, no course, no NOTHING. NO handguns are prohibited.

In Canada, getting a license to carry a handgun is practically impossible.

In these states, the gov't MUST give you a license to carry a handgun for self-defense if you don't have a criminal record.

Just to make it clear, here are the ratings for the states given by the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence: Montana (F), North Dakota (D), Minnesota ( C-)

Believe me, Canada would get an A+++ from Sarah Brady.

So, Canada is a wonderful, peaceful place where everyone is safe and happy, but step across the border and you trip over bodies and fall into the mess of blood, guts and expended shell casings, right?

Well, maybe not.

MURDER RATES
------------------------2000...2001...2002...2003...2004
Manitoba------------ 2.61...2.95...3.12...3.70... 4.27 (per 100,000)
(2002 - 1,151,000)-----30.....34......36.....43..... 49 (murders)

Saskatchewan------2.58...2.70... 2.71...4.12...3.92
(2002 - 1,000,000).... 26.... 27..... 27.....41.....39

Alberta---------------1.96...2.29... 2.25...2.03...2.69
(2002 - 3,056,000).... 60.....70......69.....62 .... 82

Montana.............1.80...3.80....1.80...3.30...3.20
(2003 - 917,000).......17.....35......17......30.....29

North Dakota.......0.60...1.10... 0.80....1.90...1.40
(2003 - 633,000)........4.......7.......5......12.......9

Minnesota..........3.10... 2.40... 2.20... 2.50...2.20
(2003 - 5,059,000)..157.....121.....111....126....111

HERE'S THE SHOCKER!


MURDER RATES PER 100,000
----------------------------------2000...2001...2002...2003...2004
Canada West-----------------2.22----2.52----2.54---2.80----3.26 (per 100,000)
Population 5,207,000........116.... 131.....132....146....170 (murders)

USA Northwest---------------2.69----2.47----2.01---2.54----2.25
Population 6,609,000........178.... 163......133....168.....149

GUN CONTROL IS A COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME!
BTW Figuring this out took me HOURS.............Canadian stats are from Stats Canada, American Stats on population are from http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0004986.html

American Stats on murder rates are from http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=169

Facts on state gun laws are from http://www.stategunlaws.org/

Math concerned is by ME.

Edited to say: DAMN, I had those all set out in coherent tables, but all spacing disappeared when I submitted it........so (being computer illiterate) I've used spacers......sorry about that)
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
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Hon. Stockwell Day (Minister of Public Safety said:
Mr. Speaker, I can assure the Premier of Quebec, Mr. Charest, and everyone who is concerned by this situation that we are going to maintain the registry system. A police officer will be able to check whether a person owns a gun. As well, this information will remain available in the information system, for use by police. People who want to keep and buy guns will still have to register them. We are going to keep the system's strengths.

so let it be written...
 

Colpy

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Nov 5, 2005
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BitWhys said:
Hon. Stockwell Day (Minister of Public Safety said:
Mr. Speaker, I can assure the Premier of Quebec, Mr. Charest, and everyone who is concerned by this situation that we are going to maintain the registry system. A police officer will be able to check whether a person owns a gun. As well, this information will remain available in the information system, for use by police. People who want to keep and buy guns will still have to register them. We are going to keep the system's strengths.

so let it be written...

Yes, BitWhys, and if you are trying to piss me off you (and Mr. Day) are succeeding ROYALLY!

That the Liberals have the ARROGANCE to whip their members over this damned thing that has cost TWO THOUSAND times what they promised, and has been used to feed money to their gangster buddies in Quebec is bad enough...........that the NDP and Bloc, being socialist idiots, will do the same is to be expected.

The registry is USELESS.

It does NOTHING but cost BILLIONS to harass honest citizens.....THAT'S IT!!!!!!

Look at the (somewhat fixed) post above..........the comparison amazed me, and it has confirmed every belief I have in the responsibility of the average citizen, and confirmed the uselessness of practically ALL gun control. A waste of time and money.

Notice if you will, as our gun laws took effect, murder rates here went UP, and while the Americans loosened their laws, murder rates went DOWN, until we kill MUCH more than they do.......

Support this crap if you will, but understand it is money that could be spent putting cops on the street, or improving health care.

As for us shooters, we'll keeping ignoring what laws we can, and obeying those we absolutely must to carry on our sport.
 

#juan

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Aug 30, 2005
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Somehow gun control became insanely expensive and I don't know how that happened but I don't think it is useless.

link

link

One thing that was interesting was that the worst place for murders in the whole of the civilized world was the Northwest Territories.

FACT: Comparison of U.S. gun homicides to other industrialized countries:
In 1998 (the most recent year for which this data has been compiled), handguns murdered:

* 373 people in Germany
* 151 people in Canada
* 57 people in Australia
* 19 people in Japan
* 54 people in England and Wales, and
* 11,789 people in the United States
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
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#juan said:
Somehow gun control became insanely expensive and I don't know how that happened but I don't think it is useless.

I've always assumed it was runaway computerization costs.
 

Colpy

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#juan said:
Somehow gun control became insanely expensive and I don't know how that happened but I don't think it is useless.

link

link

One thing that was interesting was that the worst place for murders in the whole of the civilized world was the Northwest Territories.

FACT: Comparison of U.S. gun homicides to other industrialized countries:
In 1998 (the most recent year for which this data has been compiled), handguns murdered:

* 373 people in Germany
* 151 people in Canada
* 57 people in Australia
* 19 people in Japan
* 54 people in England and Wales, and
* 11,789 people in the United States

I don't doubt your figures, Juan, but I have to take issue with a couple of points:

Handguns murdered NO ONE. The first time I ever hear of a gun of any type loading itself and waiting in ambush for some unsuspecting innocent, and then firing itself to smite them fatally, I will melt all my guns down into a statue of Wendy Cukier. PEOPLE murdered those victims.

Also, murder rates by firearm are misleading. If I want to kill someone, and I have a choice of a machete, a baseball bat, and a .357 magnum, I'll use the pistol. That does not mean I won't kill without the pistol, nor does it even mean I'll have greater success with the pistol, it just means that's what you use if it is there.

As I demonstrated in the leading post, it seems murder rates in impoverished, drug-ridden ghetto areas where kids grow up without hope and especially without fathers seriously skew national rates. These murders would continue, with or without gun control, and there is a serious need to address the other social causes of violence.
 

Colpy

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BitWhys said:
#juan said:
Somehow gun control became insanely expensive and I don't know how that happened but I don't think it is useless.

I've always assumed it was runaway computerization costs.

Partly, and their $250 million dollar system STILL doesn't work well, and is accessible by hackers (according to the agency's own computer guy). Nice of the gov't to provide criminals with a nice list of addresses where they can find guns, isn't it?

Especially at the low, low price of a quarter of a billion (taxpayer)dollars.

As well, the Auditor-General blamed the fact that the administration of the registry distrusted anyone that owned guns, and viewed that as a questionable activity. This attitude ballooned costs as the bureaucrats wasted time and resources harassing honest gun owners. That's the A-G's opinion, mind you. And I don't think she secretly packs a 9mm.

In the old system it cost about 100 bucks to register a gun......when they set up this system, folks from the firearms community went before the Justice Committee and warned them the system could cost as much as ONE HALF BILLION DOLLARS!! They were ridiculed by the Liberal controled committee.

The system has now cost four times that much.
 

Researcher87

Electoral Member
Sep 20, 2006
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In Monsoon West (B.C)
Guns don't kill people, people kill people. If you want to kill someone you will kill someone, using a gun is just efficent. You don't have to get your hands as bloody.

However, there should be some controls.
 

#juan

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FACT: Every two years more Americans die from firearm injuries than the total number of American soldiers killed during the 8-year Vietnam War. In 2003, the total number of people killed by guns in the United States was 30,136.

30,136. or very close, to a tenth of the total population of Canada
 

Colpy

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Researcher87 said:
Guns don't kill people, people kill people. If you want to kill someone you will kill someone, using a gun is just efficent. You don't have to get your hands as bloody.

However, there should be some controls.

I was willing to compromise..............but the other side is never satisfied.

Licensing, with mandatory safety courses (which I used to teach, BTW), background checks, and safe storage regulation is a reasonable regime of gun control. Registration and an ever-increasing categorization of certain guns as bad is simply stupid, and may be counter productive.
 

Colpy

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#juan said:
FACT: Every two years more Americans die from firearm injuries than the total number of American soldiers killed during the 8-year Vietnam War. In 2003, the total number of people killed by guns in the United States was 30,136.

30,136. or very close, to a tenth of the total population of Canada

HUH?

Canada's a lot emptier than I thought........ :D
 

Researcher87

Electoral Member
Sep 20, 2006
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The system you seem to suggest is good but if a weapon doesn't have any potential use in canada, for example the weapon that Gill had, you didn't need to defend your family with that or go hunting with that, why have such a weapon in canada, unless being used by police and military people. It will only cause grief in the future.
 

Colpy

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How so?

In this case, Gill used a firearm chambered for a pistol cartridge, and shot 20 people, one of whom died.

He also had with him a 12 gauge shotgun, used by every bird hunter around, and the deadliest short range weapon in existence. If loaded with 00Buckshot shells, shooting a person ONCE with it would be roughly the same as shooting them 9 times with the Storm.

You'd have had 14 or 15 dead, anyway.

Thank God for "sexy" pistol calibre carbines.

A gun, is a gun, is a gun.
 

#juan

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Colpy

Have some of the guns you own, or aspire to own become "bad"? An aquaintence of mine in Winnipeg has three Stens and a couple Uzis. I believe the only way you can own those guns is to have the barrels welded closed. I've always thought this was a bit silly because about two hours with a milling machine would get a new barrel. A good machinist could build a Sten in about a day.
 

Colpy

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#juan said:
Colpy

Have some of the guns you own, or aspire to own become "bad"? An aquaintence of mine in Winnipeg has three Stens and a couple Uzis. I believe the only way you can own those guns is to have the barrels welded closed. I've always thought this was a bit silly because about two hours with a milling machine would get a new barrel. A good machinist could build a Sten in about a day.

Yeah.

I have an FN FAL (a C1 to you) rifle that is a paperweight, I am not even allowed to take it to the range, it has to stay in the house.

And, even though I carry a 4" barreled S&W revolver every day, and I am the training officer at work, I am not allowed to own one, as they are prohibited weapons. I can own a Browning hi-Power, because it has a barrel longer than 105mm.

It doesn't have to make sense, it is gov't policy.

Which is my point. Sorta.
 

#juan

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Colpy

In your job, do you supply your own weapons, or does the company?
 

Colpy

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#juan said:
Colpy

In your job, do you supply your own weapons, or does the company?

The company assigns us a firearm, which we keep until we quit or it breaks down, or we change weapons.

they stay at work, locked up.

Edited to say:

My boss in the training dep't was once on a tour of our LA branch, which is situated right in the barrio. He said he opened this gun locker, and it was full of fancy Glocks, a Kimber .45, all sorts of expensive handguns.

"What's this?" he asked.

"Oh, that's were our employees keep their personal guns they carry on the street on the way to work......"

So they take off their .45 ACP Glock or Kimber, strap on their .38 S&W, and go to work.......

:D

The world is a strange place.
 

sanch

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As for us shooters, we'll keeping ignoring what laws we can, and obeying those we absolutely must to carry on our sport. [quote]

Colpy Canada is not Dodge City.  These threats to ignore or break laws if your "sport" is interrupted really undermines the argument that you should be trusted with guns.  [/quote]