What would YOU want to hear at church?

In Between Man

The Biblical Position
Sep 11, 2008
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Quotes from two atheists who converted to Christianity. Both are smarter than me; both are more accomplished in matters of faith and reason.

Good post adopted! There's some really good ones here, but I'm going to choose the following as my "segway" to the video:

People almost invariably arrive at their beliefs not on the basis of proof but on the basis of what they find attractive.

Atheism Aside: Peter Hitchens' Journey to Faith - CBN.com - YouTube
 

L Gilbert

Winterized
Nov 30, 2006
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The point is, if faith is a gift from God, then you can't get there by reasoning yourself there.
That's a pretty big "if". The more science tears down this house of cards called Christianity and disproves its ridiculous claims, the smaller the probability of your god existing.
Secondly, if you lack the gift, your comments about it might be foolish. (Like the blind man commenting on what the seeing see.)
Lack the gift? lol Ah, a new fallacious argument: appeal to Star Wars and the "Force". lmao Now that we are into "ifs" and "maybes", what if this "gift" you mention is nothing more than a thought? Kind of like man creating gods in his own image. lol Then the "Force, or "gift" as you put it, is just a random bunch of fired synapses in your brain; a thought. And the argument about millions of people having the same thought is just another fallacious argument called "appeal to the masses". The masses also once thought that Earth was flat, too. Science showed that to be more junk.

But you had just said that you live on the earth. Presumably, if you live on the earth, you've noticed that the sun rises.
Yup, I live on this planet. I also paid attention in science classes. The sun in relation to Earth is fixed. The Earth in relation to the sun isn't. So the sun doesn't rise, the Earth just spins so the light of the sun is shining on different parts of the Earth as it rotates.
You can do an experiment showing this. If you put a lamp and a globe on a table, turn the lamp on and slowly spin the globe you'll see that the lamp stays still while it shines on different parts of the globe. Here's a picture show for you:

Science4Kids - Episode 2 - What causes day and night ? by Tanmayi - YouTube

If you want I can provide a picture show explaining that the Earth is round, not flat, too.

How you experience it generally depends which of the two you're standing on.
Nope. It doesn't matter which orb you stand on, the Earth rotates. That little experiment should show you that. Look at the globe from the direction of the lamp (careful you don't burn yourself). The globe spins. Now take a look from the globe. It still spins.

Our language reflects our real experience.

For example, we call the floor of a building "flat" or "level" because we experience it as such. But technically, it was built using a plumb-line, which means that it follows the curved surface of the earth -- it is not tangent to the earth; yet this is not an incorrect usage of the word "flat."
Plumb lines are perpendicular to Earth. They react to gravity. And levels are used to make floors tangential. Try using a laser level sometime.

I find that non-Christians try to explain reality as if they're floating out in the universe somewhere.
So? Most Christians can't seem to explain much of reality at all. Either way, it doesn't matter which perspective you use, the Earth rotates and shows a different face to the sun every second.

When I'm driving in my car, I say that the cup is stationary inside the cup-holder. I don't say that it is traveling at 60 km/h, at least not when I'm trying to have a meaningful conversation with, for example, other people in the car.
If the cup is in the car and the car's velocity is 60kph, then so is the cup's velocity. Perspective doesn't change the fact. Gr. 2 students could tell you that.
You sitting in your chair in front of your computer may seem or look like you aren't moving much but you are actually travelling at about 1600 kph. Sitting still is only an illusion.

Good post adopted! There's some really good ones here, but I'm going to choose the following as my "segway" to the video:

People almost invariably arrive at their beliefs not on the basis of proof but on the basis of what they find attractive.
Almost invariably doesn't count for the many people who rely on evidence to guide what they think. Do you think that YHVH poofed your computer into existence? Or do you know the evidence about people building your computer?
 
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adopted

Electoral Member
Sep 23, 2008
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Lack the gift? lol Ah, a new fallacious argument: appeal to Star Wars and the "Force". lmao Now that we are into "ifs" and "maybes", what if this "gift" you mention is nothing more than a thought?

You can't reason your way to faith. Faith comes by hearing, and is ultimately a gift from God. Reasoning is a human faculty for leading us to rudimentary principles in this world. Don't expect it to be your pathway to the Divine.

Yup, I live on this planet. I also paid attention in science classes. The sun in relation to Earth is fixed. The Earth in relation to the sun isn't. So the sun doesn't rise, the Earth just spins so the light of the sun is shining on different parts of the Earth as it rotates.

This is a childish discussion of semantics. We all know the earth spins. We also call the morning "sunrise" and the evening "sunset."

Plumb lines are perpendicular to Earth. They react to gravity. And levels are used to make floors tangential. Try using a laser level sometime.

Hold your level (the old fashioned kind with a bubble in the water). Keep that bubble in the middle, between the lines, and start walking. See where it leads you. You'll walk right around the earth and end up where you started and say, "yep, it's flat all the way around."

If the cup is in the car and the car's velocity is 60kph, then so is the cup's velocity. Perspective doesn't change the fact. Gr. 2 students could tell you that.

Grade 2 students could also tell you that the cup-holder holds the cup "still." Again, you're being childish with semantics, because you want to have a valid complaint about somebody talking about the sun rising.

Almost invariably doesn't count for the many people who rely on evidence to guide what they think. Do you think that YHVH poofed your computer into existence? Or do you know the evidence about people building your computer?

Sounds like an argument for intelligent design.
 

Spade

Ace Poster
Nov 18, 2008
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Adopted, your ideas are so bizarre, so alien, so different from orthodox Christianity, distasteful to the extreme, so insulting to reason, that I am not certain you aren't from Mars.
Klaata barada nikto?
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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You can't reason your way to faith. Faith comes by hearing, and is ultimately a gift from God. Reasoning is a human faculty for leading us to rudimentary principles in this world. Don't expect it to be your pathway to the Divine.
The thing is, my faith is divinely inspired too and my faith tells me that your version of god is probably more like Satan (even though I don't believe in Satan either but you do.) Are there absolutes? I don't think so. There were times when I thought Alleywayz was a whack job, but that title now goes to a new person.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
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Doesn't the 'big bang' happen when 'something' (material for the event) is made from 'nothing'? Some years back 'radiation' was bad for people. now that most of Japan is awarsh in it suddenly 'it' isn't as dangerous as once thought. The truth of that statement would be something that cannot be 'proven' for another 50 years (if that long) yet there they are (their Gov) promoting 'faith' as a 'fact' while making sure 'they' are not exposed to the same levels. Didn't one Politician eat some produce from the 'danger zone' and then develop leukemia almost immediately? Wonder where he strands on 'faith in science'?
 

adopted

Electoral Member
Sep 23, 2008
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No, you can't, and that's exactly what's wrong with it. If you can't get there by reason and evidence, there's no place to get to, you're just making it up out of nothing. .

You talk as if "reason" is the only human faculty. You don't possess intuition? You don't possess trust? You navigate your entire life via reason?

If faith is a gift from God, then (1) it's not made up out of nothing; (2) it aligns perfectly with logic, science, the prophets, the gospel, and the experience of others. This is exactly what we find it doing. Jesus talked a lot about witnesses and their testimonies aligning to make something sure. He talked about evidence.
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
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adopted, what "evidence" do you have from now. Something you can show from the present. Quoting a 2000 year old book is not presenting any kind of "evidence".
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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You talk as if "reason" is the only human faculty. You don't possess intuition? You don't possess trust? You navigate your entire life via reason?

.

Intuition and trust are just like icing on the cake, but without reason you have no "cake".
 

L Gilbert

Winterized
Nov 30, 2006
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You can't reason your way to faith. Faith comes by hearing, and is ultimately a gift from God.
You seem to think faith is some sort of treasure. Well, it isn't. All faith is, is just the hope that whatever you believe in is true. One could have faith in absolutely anything whether it has anything to do with reality, facts, illusion, or imagination.
Reasoning is a human faculty for leading us to rudimentary principles in this world. Don't expect it to be your pathway to the Divine.
I don't. You also seem to think that this pathway to the divine is something I should treasure. Well, I don't. I think it's all just a fart from the imagination. I have little use for faith. It serves as a very small function for me.

This is a childish discussion of semantics. We all know the earth spins. We also call the morning "sunrise" and the evening "sunset."
You brought it up. The fact is the Earth rotates. The illusion is the sun rises and sets. Live with it. And the definitions of reality and illusion is not just semantics.

Hold your level (the old fashioned kind with a bubble in the water). Keep that bubble in the middle, between the lines, and start walking. See where it leads you.
lol Sorry, but that's due to gravity, not because the level curves. Using a level and following the line of the straight edge with some mechanism that enabled me to defy gravity, I'd fly out into space. Especially if I used a laser level.
You'll walk right around the earth and end up where you started and say, "yep, it's flat all the way around."
Sorry, the planet isn't flat. It is an oblate spheroid and it also has mountains, canyons, oceans, etc. I don't care where you are, you can't walk the circumference.

Grade 2 students could also tell you that the cup-holder holds the cup "still." Again, you're being childish with semantics, because you want to have a valid complaint about somebody talking about the sun rising.
lol Again, the definitions of reality and illusion is not just semantics. And again, you brought it up into the conversation. The reality is that the cup is moving. The illusion is that the cup is sitting still.
So keep believing and having faith in illusions if you wish, but don't expect me to do the same.

Sounds like an argument for intelligent design.
Only in your head.

Doesn't the 'big bang' happen when 'something' (material for the event) is made from 'nothing'? Some years back 'radiation' was bad for people. now that most of Japan is awarsh in it suddenly 'it' isn't as dangerous as once thought. The truth of that statement would be something that cannot be 'proven' for another 50 years (if that long) yet there they are (their Gov) promoting 'faith' as a 'fact' while making sure 'they' are not exposed to the same levels. Didn't one Politician eat some produce from the 'danger zone' and then develop leukemia almost immediately? Wonder where he strands on 'faith in science'?
Something from nothing:

Theoretical physics breakthrough: Generating matter and antimatter from the vacuum

This god that created everything from nothing is becoming less and less relevant.
 
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JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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You can't reason your way to faith. Faith comes by hearing, and is ultimately a gift from God. .

Oh boy, you have a lot to learn about life! I have "faith" in things based on history. If I lent my friend some money 100 times and he paid me back promptly 100 times, then I would have the faith in him to give him another loan. Faith is nothing more than that. When you have faith that something is going to happen you are comfortable with the thought and have no doubts about it. Anything less is a sham.
 

L Gilbert

Winterized
Nov 30, 2006
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You talk as if "reason" is the only human faculty. You don't possess intuition? You don't possess trust? You navigate your entire life via reason?
Sorry, adopted, that's only your impression of what Dex says.

If faith is a gift from God, then (1) it's not made up out of nothing;
Everything we are, think, say, do, how we act and react, etc. is because of our DNA and brains. We are hardwired to be what we are. (2) it aligns perfectly with logic, science, the prophets, the gospel, and the experience of others. This is exactly what we find it doing.[/quote]Wrong. If faith is a gift from gods, it teaches us to ignore facts and data that conflicts with it.
Jesus talked a lot about witnesses and their testimonies aligning to make something sure. He talked about evidence.
lol Anyone can speak of evidence. Anyone can accept SOME evidence. Very few can accept ALL evidence. And faith allows people to ignore vast amounts of evidence.

Look at it this way, animals with little intelligence pretty much function as consumers and procreators. That's about all there is to their lives. It goes from the smallest animals, like bacteria and virii, all the way up to cetaceans and anthropods. So what's the difference? As animals get more intelligent, they think more. Does thought create things? Sure. But the only things thought creates are not made of materials, actions, energy, etc., all thoughts create are impressions, illusions, etc. People only THINK there are gods.
 
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Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
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If faith is a gift from God, then (1) it's not made up out of nothing; (2) it aligns perfectly with logic, science, the prophets, the gospel, and the experience of others. This is exactly what we find it doing. Jesus talked a lot about witnesses and their testimonies aligning to make something sure. He talked about evidence.
And this is how you got to the idiotic conclusion in the face of all reason and evidence that the planet is only 6000 years old?
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
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You talk as if "reason" is the only human faculty. You don't possess intuition? You don't possess trust? You navigate your entire life via reason?

I trust many things, I have faith in many things, of course I possess intuition, I am human.

You forgot to mention imagination, of which some have so much of, it is in runaway mode, and
some just enough to enjoy imaginary thoughts, which is a very enjoyable part of being human.

I've enjoyed many conversations where we say "can you imagine ?-----whatever, then the conversation
can get very carried away, and we can have fun with it, but when it is over, we come back to our
balance again.

I have stated before that the imagination is a very powerful tool in the human brain,
along with convincing oneself, or not,
and I see that, proven in many posts, in the form of religion and god.

I don't believe in any god at all, and I am comfortable and happy and content in my life, and have
no fear of being left out of anything, but very happy to be a child of this earth, of which
I have so much respect.

Nothing in my life has ever led me to believe there is a god, even though I had many years
of catholic teachings as a child, and went to catholic school, and actually, learning so
much about my religion and god, taught me that there is 'none'.

And nothing all thru my life, to the present has changed that, I am still very happy with my
non belief, and know I made the right choice way back then.

'I repeat, I would like to know the real balance of the church 'books', just as I would like to
know the real balance of many large corporate books.'

There are so many sad little sheep giving their money because they want to be on the right side
of things when all is done, well, keep your money, it doesn't matter.

We have to be true to ourselves, and being a follower on a road that tells me to believe in
some god or another is definitely not the road I am on, or wish to be.
 

Serryah

Hall of Fame Member
Dec 3, 2008
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You talk as if "reason" is the only human faculty. You don't possess intuition? You don't possess trust? You navigate your entire life via reason?

If faith is a gift from God, then (1) it's not made up out of nothing; (2) it aligns perfectly with logic, science, the prophets, the gospel, and the experience of others. This is exactly what we find it doing. Jesus talked a lot about witnesses and their testimonies aligning to make something sure. He talked about evidence.

You realize that the more you talk about faith, adopted, the more you are saying ANY faith is legitimate? Not just yours in your version of God, but everyone's? You canNOT say people of other religions don't have faith; some of them have the exact amount, or more faith, than even you.

If your faith is legitimate, so is theirs.

You keep digging yourself a hole, deeper and deeper.