What would YOU want to hear at church?

[L Gilbert]

Congratulations, you just affirmed that Nazi Germany was justified for murdering millions of people.

According to Nazi Germany at the time, they were justified.

If justice for me meant putting a sword to the neck of the atheist and telling him "convert or die", again your reaction will prove that justice and morality is absolute.

Nope. The atheist would have a different idea of justice and he'd likely fight back (except he'd have sense enough to use a firearm).

You may say "but that's not my justice", well, TOO BAD, it's justice for me, and what grounds do you base your objection? Your opinion? I don't care about your opinion!

Now you've got it. It's relative and subjective, like I said.

Unless you stand on an absolute moral standard, a standard that is objective of yourself or me, then your objection to me forcing conversion on you is baseless because it's only a mere opinion. You might as well tell me "chocolate tastes better than vanilla".

Yep. You actually do have it now. BOOYAH!

 

[MHz]

One, some, or all of this is done today in various type Churches, especially the south.

The NT writers were showing those things to all nonbelievers. Today they would be emptying out hospitals, at least I would hope so.

As a general rule I'm content with my view that the Bible is a true document, the more that I find the 'stories' mesh and enhance each other, the more I am inclined to see that as proof that it is divine in nature. I would even hesitate to say that 30M American Evangelicans maybe wrong about the pretrib rapture and the RCC would be judged just as hard

If the last few years are in prophecies, saying the Lord's Prayer during those years will be useful. Christians should try and see what doctrine they are left with if the 70 weeks are over.

 

[L Gilbert]

3


= a + x + 42 divided by # sq rt ^ @ ).

Like I said, evidence following the conclusion.

 

[MHz]

According to Nazi Germany at the time, they were justified.

A few of them ended up in the Hague for it. Perhaps that court should have been more aggressive since then.

 

[lone wolf]

A few of them ended up in the Hague for it. Perhaps that court should have been more aggressive since then.

Who would be standing at Nuremburg if THEY won?

 

[MHz]

So no hope for Libya to get NATO in Court then?

Little chilly when the rules point to using tactics classified as war-crimes, just don't lose.

 

[lone wolf]

So no hope for Libya to get NATO in Court then?

Why? Were either of 'em at Nuremburg or Nazi?

 

[L Gilbert]

A few of them ended up in the Hague for it. Perhaps that court should have been more aggressive since then.

Perhaps? I'd have said "probably".

 

[MHz]

Why? Were either of 'em at Nuremburg or Nazi?

Think of the PR value to NATO for offering up the head of a Canadian General, granted it will be an in-house trial (military tribunal) and early retirement.

 

[adopted]

Quotes from two atheists who converted to Christianity. Both are smarter than me; both are more accomplished in matters of faith and reason.

The last function of reason is to recognize that there are an infinity of things which surpass it.

Men despise religion. They hate it and are afraid it may be true.

In faith there is enough light for those who want to believe and enough shadows to blind those who don't.

Faith is different from proof; the latter is human, the former is a Gift from God.

The gospel to me is simply irresistible.

Truth is so obscure in these times, and falsehood so established, that, unless we love the truth, we cannot know it.

God wishes to move the will rather than the mind. Perfect clarity would help the mind and harm the will.

People almost invariably arrive at their beliefs not on the basis of proof but on the basis of what they find attractive.
​

-- Blaise Pascal
​

A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell.

Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.

I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.

If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning.

There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, "All right, then, have it your way."
​

-- C.S. Lewis
​

 

[lone wolf]

Think of the PR value to NATO for offering up the head of a Canadian General, granted it will be an in-house trial (military tribunal) and early retirement.

You still haven't answered:

Who would be standing at Nuremburg if THEY won?

It all comes down to whose interpretation ... even in your book.

Quotes from two atheists who converted to Christianity. Both are smarter than me; both are more accomplished in matters of faith and reason.

The last function of reason is to recognize that there are an infinity of things which surpass it.

Men despise religion. They hate it and are afraid it may be true.

In faith there is enough light for those who want to believe and enough shadows to blind those who don't.

Faith is different from proof; the latter is human, the former is a Gift from God.

The gospel to me is simply irresistible.

Truth is so obscure in these times, and falsehood so established, that, unless we love the truth, we cannot know it.

God wishes to move the will rather than the mind. Perfect clarity would help the mind and harm the will.

People almost invariably arrive at their beliefs not on the basis of proof but on the basis of what they find attractive.
​

-- Blaise Pascal
​

A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell.

Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.

I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.

If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning.

There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, "All right, then, have it your way."
​

-- C.S. Lewis
​

You got your shoes fixed din'cha?

 

[L Gilbert]

Quotes from two atheists who converted to Christianity. Both are smarter than me; both are more accomplished in matters of faith and reason.

So?

The last function of reason is to recognize that there are an infinity of things which surpass it.

Men despise religion. They hate it and are afraid it may be true.​

Some do, some don't. Personally, religions are irrelevant to me.

In faith there is enough light for those who want to believe and enough shadows to blind those who don't.

and vice versa.

Faith is different from proof; the latter is human, the former is a Gift from God.

According to whom? Why, according to the Bible, of course. And who "inspired" that? Why, the critter the Bible is about, of course.

I can fly without wings, without engines, without flapping my arms even and you have to believe it because I said so.

The gospel to me is simply irresistible.

Not to me.

Truth is so obscure in these times, and falsehood so established, that, unless we love the truth, we cannot know it.

Apparently reason is rare, too.

God wishes to move the will rather than the mind. Perfect clarity would help the mind and harm the will.

Ah, so everything should be vague, ambiguous, etc.

People almost invariably arrive at their beliefs not on the basis of proof but on the basis of what they find attractive.

​

-- Blaise Pascal​

Like faith, for instance?
​

A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell.​

So? I admit it is pretty tough to squash faith in myths.

Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.

Sorry, I have Earth. I am living on it. I have no wish for some pie in the sky. At least not "heaven".

I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.

The sun doesn't rise. The Earth rotates.

If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning.

lol The meaning of life is to enjoy it as it is, not to enjoy only part of it and hope for the pie in the sky.

There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, "All right, then, have it your way."

​

-- C.S. Lewis
​

[/quote]Nah. There are lots of different kinds of people: atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Taoists, etc. ad infinitum.

 

[Cliffy]

Like Les said, people don't hate religion, they just have no use for it; it is irrelevant to them. On the other hand, they may hate self righteous dick heads who think they know better than anybody else what others need. People may also hate the fact that religion has been a major cause of death and suffering in the world for the last 2000 years.

 

[adopted]

So?According to whom? Why, according to the Bible, of course. And who "inspired" that? Why, the critter the Bible is about, of course.

The point is, if faith is a gift from God, then you can't get there by reasoning yourself there. Secondly, if you lack the gift, your comments about it might be foolish. (Like the blind man commenting on what the seeing see.)

The sun doesn't rise. The Earth rotates.

But you had just said that you live on the earth. Presumably, if you live on the earth, you've noticed that the sun rises.

People may also hate the fact that religion has been a major cause of death and suffering in the world for the last 2000 years.

That's a true thing. Just don't blame Christ for that. He himself was one of the most fierce critics of religion.

 

[Cliffy]

The point is, if faith is a gift from God, then you can't get there by reasoning yourself there. Secondly, if you lack the gift, your comments about it might be foolish. (Like the blind man commenting on what the seeing see.)



But you had just said that you live on the earth. Presumably, if you live on the earth, you've noticed that the sun rises.



That's a true thing. Just don't blame Christ for that. He himself was one of the most fierce critics of religion.

The sun rising is a saying and a misnomer. The earth rotates. The sun is pretty much fixed in its relation to the earth.

 

[adopted]

The sun rising is a saying and a misnomer. The earth rotates. The sun is pretty much fixed in its relation to the earth.

How you experience it generally depends which of the two you're standing on.

Our language reflects our real experience.

For example, we call the floor of a building "flat" or "level" because we experience it as such. But technically, it was built using a plumb-line, which means that it follows the curved surface of the earth -- it is not tangent to the earth; yet this is not an incorrect usage of the word "flat."

I find that non-Christians try to explain reality as if they're floating out in the universe somewhere.

When I'm driving in my car, I say that the cup is stationary inside the cup-holder. I don't say that it is traveling at 60 km/h, at least not when I'm trying to have a meaningful conversation with, for example, other people in the car.

 

[lone wolf]

...When I'm driving in my car, I say that the cup is stationary inside the cup-holder. I don't say that it is traveling at 60 km/h, at least not when I'm trying to have a meaningful conversation with, for example, other people in the car.

;-) Hit the brake and see what happens. That's reality....

 

[adopted]

;-) Hit the brake and see what happens. That's reality....

Yep, when that happens, that's reality. When that doesn't happen, then it not happening is reality.

 

[Cliffy]

That's a true thing. Just don't blame Christ for that. He himself was one of the most fierce critics of religion.

And that is what I have said for decades - Jesus was against religion and the self righteous who think they are holier than everybody else. So why do you think people decided to create a religion based on some guy who was against religion. Does that make a whole lot of sense to you guys? Jesus chastised the pharisees and other religious types because he was a spiritual person not a religious one. And don't get me started on money and religion.

 

[adopted]

And that is what I have said for decades - Jesus was against religion and the self righteous who think they are holier than everybody else.

I'm delighted to agree with you on something.

So why do you think people decided to create a religion based on some guy who was against religion. Does that make a whole lot of sense to you guys? Jesus chastised the pharisees and other religious types because he was a spiritual person not a religious one.

That's a fair point for discussion, and it helps me understand where you're coming from. We'd best first clarify the various senses in which we use the term "religion."

I know exactly what you're referring to here, in the sense of "religion" being a system of rituals that doesn't particularly touch down on reality, spirituality, or even humanity. Yes... this is the sort of religion denounced by Jesus -- the washing of the outside of the cup while the inside is full of rotten bones -- the straining at gnats while swallowing camels.

I must admit that various Christians, in various times and places, have done exactly this. Of course, we'd be surprised if this sort of thing never happened. It's predictable that people will take Christ and create a man-made system that entirely misses the point and betrays the very Christ whose name they invoke.

I'm not going to pretend this hasn't happened. I'm not even going to pretend that I've never been tempted to go down these paths myself. Humans want nifty little formulas. That's why the evangelicals have come up with this non-Biblical garbage: "You want to go to heaven? Just recite this prayer after me... Okay, you're saved! Isn't that fantastic!?"

Jesus doesn't give people the formula-based salvation they want. Look how he handled this situation (if I did this today, the evangelicals would say I did a butcher-job, because I didn't give Nicodemus a warm fuzzy invite into the church):

Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
​

Yeah, Jesus could have said, "You want to be born again Nicodemus? Hold my hand and repeat after me, 'I accept Jesus as my personal savior... Jesus, please come into my heart!'"

Instead, he invoked some OT imagery ("water" and "Spirit") that would mean something to Nicodemus, for he was a teacher in Israel, and then he basically says, "It's not up to you -- you can't save yourself -- the Spirit does what he does." After this, he rebukes Nicodemus for being so thick, preaches the gospel, and leaves him with it. (Later, after Christ's death, Nicodemus comes to the faith!)

On the other hand, sometimes we use the word "religion" to refer simply to a "set of beliefs." If this is the definition of religion, then I will say that I am religious, and my religion is the teachings of Christ. Under this definition, atheism, environmentalism, humanism, and feminism are also religions.

I want you to know that not all Christians are shallow ritual-driven system-loving formula followers who miss the depth of Christ's message, the depth of the Gospel, the meaning of love, and even the experience of the "journey" that you sometimes speak of. In fact, I might go so far as to say that those "religious" types are not even genuine Christians, but rather detractors who give occasion for unbelievers to slander and blaspheme, and so their condemnation will be most severe, unless they repent.

Yep, I am convinced that there are modern day Christian-Pharisees, and on the judgment they will hear Christ saying the same sort of words to them as he said to the Pharisees.

The hardest part of my faith is letting go of the little formulas and the little things I think I can do to get myself saved.

And don't get me started on money and religion.

We'd probably agree on that too.