Mountain pine beetles transition to new species

[Cliffy]

The forest industry also has to change their planting patterns. Now they plant fast growing, quick to harvest trees.
When a disease hits – pine bettle etc – it spreads rapidly – Bio diversity is basically nonexistent on replanted areas.

It is not just planting. They need to stop clear cutting because it destroys the micro organisms and mushroom mycelium that is necessary in breaking down the forest debris to fertilize new growth. Clear cutting is the number one cause of this warming. Old growth is necessary for absorbing the pollutants from the air and converting it to oxygen. I have heard that there is as much as 30% less oxygen in the atmosphere than 100 years ago. We have less than 5% of our old growth left in Canada thanks to greed and stupidity.

 

[Tonington]

Ahh, so then can I lump you in with the do-nothing camp Kakato is in? The current outbreak is larger than any of the previous outbreaks, including those Kakato mentioned, by orders of magnitude. That means it's way above the standard variation...which means something has changed to place this outbreak as unrepresentative of the rest of the outbreaks. Having a management plan doesn't mean it's best practice....doing nothing is a management plan, and that's not best practice. There are a number of factors involved, some can be controlled, and others cannot.

If humans did as Kakato suggests every time we come up against a problem, well people would still be dying from now preventable disease. That's just rubbish.

 

[Cliffy]

Ahh, so then can I lump you in with the do-nothing camp Kakato is in? The current outbreak is larger than any of the previous outbreaks, including those Kakato mentioned, by orders of magnitude. That means it's way above the standard variation...which means something has changed to place this outbreak as unrepresentative of the rest of the outbreaks. Having a management plan doesn't mean it's best practice....doing nothing is a management plan, and that's not best practice. There are a number of factors involved, some can be controlled, and others cannot.

If humans did as Kakato suggests every time we come up against a problem, well people would still be dying from now preventable disease. That's just rubbish.

Ton, I did not say do nothing. What I am saying is that "Degrees" do not have practical knowledge of how forests work. All they have is book learnin' which is not only not enough, they approach the problem as if they know something. It is pure arrogance. I lived in the forest for ten years. By that I mean, I was part of the eco system, learning to live in balance with it. What is happening is a man made problem. "Degrees" have introduced other species to deal with problems and in the long run have made it worse. We have got to stop playing god when it comes to nature. Case in pint would be the introduction of moose into Newfyland without providing a natural predator. If we are going to find a solution to the bug problem, "Degrees" have got to acknowledge that they need help from people who have practical knowledge gleaned from personal experience.

 

[Goober]

Ton, I did not say do nothing. What I am saying is that "Degrees" do not have practical knowledge of how forests work. All they have is book learnin' which is not only not enough, they approach the problem as if they know something. It is pure arrogance. I lived in the forest for ten years. By that I mean, I was part of the eco system, learning to live in balance with it. What is happening is a man made problem. "Degrees" have introduced other species to deal with problems and in the long run have made it worse. We have got to stop playing god when it comes to nature. Case in pint would be the introduction of moose into Newfyland without providing a natural predator. If we are going to find a solution to the bug problem, "Degrees" have got to acknowledge that they need help from people who have practical knowledge gleaned from personal experience.

Many species are introduced in ways never thought of. For instance they believe the Pine Beetle arrived in ships ballasts – same with Zebra Mussels – Another is that Kudzu – It is another problem.
With trade and products coming from everywhere – Fruits from China to S America – Road or ship – New forms of infestation will only increase.

With Global Warming – it will cause feast for some species and famine for others.

But look at the pine across the country – See the impact on the ecosystem. It is a game changer – and a massive one – once these hit a warmer winter climate – they will spread like wildfire – Just introducing a natural predator does not always work and can cause unforeseen problems.

 

[darkbeaver]

Some of the coldest winters on record in the NH have been recorded in the last decade. This pine beetle conspiracy fable is just more warming planet rubbish meant to stampede the green pretenders into coughing hunks of money to stuff the gobs of crooked scientists and politicians. You ain't getting any.
Wait for it he will ask you to support legislation to prevent unsanctioned biotic migrations he will recommend suspending animal and bug rights of free passage.
This man is a anthrofascist who preaches death to bugs and the birds and reptiles who feed on them. He wants to override mother natures directives and institute an horrific technocratic insect police force that will cost Canadians dearly. Do not vote for him. Send your message at election time. I am told that the mountain beetle babies are very soft and cuddly something like baby seals.

The beetle that ate NYC.

 

[Tonington]

Ton, I did not say do nothing. What I am saying is that "Degrees" do not have practical knowledge of how forests work.

Wide brush strokes... You're assuming that someone who goes to forestry school had zero practical knowledge both before and during their schooling. Further, you're assuming foresters don't learn anything after they leave school.

I lived in the forest for ten years. By that I mean, I was part of the eco system, learning to live in balance with it.

That's great.

What is happening is a man made problem. "Degrees" have introduced other species to deal with problems and in the long run have made it worse.

Reference? That's a pretty bold claim.

If we are going to find a solution to the bug problem, "Degrees" have got to acknowledge that they need help from people who have practical knowledge gleaned from personal experience.

Well that goes without saying...I don't see many scientists actually clearing wood for harvest or working on fire crews along the edges of infected wood stands, or spraying chemicals...their job is to investigate relationships and report on risks and benefits.

Some of the coldest winters on record in the NH have been recorded in the last decade. This pine beetle conspiracy fable is just more warming planet rubbish meant to stampede the green pretenders into coughing hunks of money to stuff the gobs of crooked scientists and politicians. You ain't getting any.

Ahh, now that the beaver is here, the anti-science brigade can really march along.

 

[Goober]

Wide brush strokes... You're assuming that someone who goes to forestry school had zero practical knowledge both before and during their schooling. Further, you're assuming foresters don't learn anything after they leave school.



That's great.



Reference? That's a pretty bold claim.


Ton

Think Australia - Rabbits - Camels - Cane toads - Antigua - Trying to remember the name of that polecat they (Brits) imported to kill snakes - That worked well. No snakes - So now they go after other things -

 

[damngrumpy]

And just think those wonderful tree huggers, and some of my relatives are included
in this statement, are the same people who argue against some form of ariel spray
porgram. We should spray the forest with what ever works and never mind this
nonsense about being environmentally correct about everything.
I say find something that works and use it.
First we didn't want forest companies to log these trees. Then we wanted a natural
state in the woods, so don't clean up the forested areas leave them be.
Then we fought Ariel spraying as harmful to society.

It comes down to this, if we don't log the area, the trees become old and fall, if we
don't clean up the forest floor, the fuel hazard is incredible. If we don't do anything
the pine beetles will eat it all anyway. The area becomes dead and dried out and
fire takes its toll damaging the forest and the neighbouring homes and towns in its
path.
The best way is, kill the pine beetle with Ariel spray programs of some kind, and
log the forest in a responsible manner and replant for renewable growth.
We should use good husbandry and farm the forests not mine them or leave them
to neglect.

 

[bill barilko]

And just think those wonderful tree huggers, and some of my relatives are included
in this statement, are the same people who argue against some form of ariel spray.....

Doesn't work Old Fella never has never will-did you not know that?

 

[Retired_Can_Soldier]

Is it possible that the beetles are actually forestry provocateurs who are invoking this crisis to secure their jobs?

 

[petros]

Pine beetles are all part of the forest life cycle and not moonbeam "global warming" bull****.

 

[Goober]

Pine beetles are all part of the forest life cycle and not moonbeam "global warming" bull****.

But like the zebra mussel they arrived due to emptying of ships ballasts. We will see more and more of this over time. Natural progression.

 

[Tonington]

Pine beetles are all part of the forest life cycle .

Not the Boreal forest. That's what climate change does...species migrate, some faster than others, some farther than others. When they enter new ecosystems there's no way to know what will happen.

 

[taxslave]

The forest industry also has to change their planting patterns. Now they plant fast growing, quick to harvest trees.
When a disease hits – pine bettle etc – it spreads rapidly – Bio diversity is basically nonexistent on replanted areas.

Where on earth did you get that little gem of BS? I've stomped around lots of regen on the coast and even the natural regen is never monoculture. Planted areas often have 3 or 4 species mixed together.

It is not just planting. They need to stop clear cutting because it destroys the micro organisms and mushroom mycelium that is necessary in breaking down the forest debris to fertilize new growth. Clear cutting is the number one cause of this warming. Old growth is necessary for absorbing the pollutants from the air and converting it to oxygen. I have heard that there is as much as 30% less oxygen in the atmosphere than 100 years ago. We have less than 5% of our old growth left in Canada thanks to greed and stupidity.

Young trees produce oxygen. over mature trees USE oxygen. Clearcutting in most areas is the safest and most closely resembles nature.

 

[Cliffy]

Where on earth did you get that little gem of BS? I've stomped around lots of regen on the coast and even the natural regen is never monoculture. Planted areas often have 3 or 4 species mixed together.



Young trees produce oxygen. over mature trees USE oxygen. Clearcutting in most areas is the safest and most closely resembles nature.

Clearcutting is beyond stupid. Bio-diversity has nothing to do with the number of species in a cut block. It includes all the life forms that make up a forest - animal, vegetable, bugs and micro-organisms. Clearcutting, scarifying, prescribed burns kill off the micro organisms, destroys the duff that they decompose to make compost for new growth. I have planted trees and two years later had to go in and cut all the new trees down because of mistletoe, dead and other growth anomalies because they were planted in nothing more than mineral soil, devoid of life. Tree plantations are not forests. They are not much more than orchards and require more care than natural regen, It takes hundreds of years to develop a forest naturally, as it has to go through cycles of plants, shrubs, deciduous and then confers. Break that cycle and you mess with the natural order of the planet. Case in point is the once great cedar forests of Lebanon that are now desert.

And I won't lower myself to your childish use of negative reps.

 

[petros]

Not the Boreal forest. That's what climate change does...species migrate, some faster than others, some farther than others. When they enter new ecosystems there's no way to know what will happen.

Still all part of the cycle and they aren't going to make it to the boreal. Not past anything transitional.

 

[Kakato]

Ahh, so you have evidence that they were infecting jack pine? I call BS on that one. There have been multiple localized outbreaks in Alberta, who is denying that?

One wonders exactly what it is you think is BS...

Dude,in a bad infestation they will attack pine,spruce and even you!
Our entomoligist we had in the field showed me this and when useing a chainsaw lots of sap gets on you from the saw including bare arms and they would literally be chewing on your skin thinking it was a pine tree.When we started not letting mother nature keep the forest balanced by fire we changed things for the worst,now mother natures going to balance it out.
Thanks to the beetle infestation that was allready out of control in the flathead we lost most of our forest as the lost creek fire raged out of control for a month,most expensive fire ever fought in Canada.

 

[petros]

The beetles only attack aging trees. They serve a purpose.

 

[Kakato]

The beetles only attack aging trees. They serve a purpose.

They will also attack young trees in a bad infestation,the trees defense mechanism is to try kick the beetle out with sap flow and thats why young trees stand a better chance but when overwhelmed they will kill younger trees also.
While working on the beetle program we choppered all over southern Alberta and it was bad,they were so thick in some places it was like black flys up north and they were chewing on everything including spruce trees.On a quiet day you could literally hear them chewing under the bark.
This was all experimental stage for fighting beetles so we tried lots of different things in lots of places and I can go back now 31 years later and see that it was all a waste of time.
If it wasnt an infestation then yes,the beetles would have plenty to eat and the younger trees would be spared.Ive seen the smaller timber just covered with sap tubes from attacks.

 

[Cliffy]

The beetles only attack aging trees. They serve a purpose.

If this is so, and they have attacked vast tracts of land (millions of hectares), then there is something seriously wrong with our forests. I wonder if we had anything to do with that?