Egypt on the Verge of Collapse?

[coldstream]

I heard that Mubarak in 82 years old. For crying out loud, who wants this at that age, some people think they are going to live forever.

I expect that the Army will pressure him not to run in the 2011 election, and he'll be replaced by another strong man. The economic and social problems are far too deep to be solved in the near future, but i'm sure most people cringe at the prospect of another rogue Islamic state like Iran on the Middle East map.

Mubarak has been trying to position his son, Gamal, for succession, but i think that might be a non starter now.

 

[ironsides]

I am just waiting for the Army to pick another President, what they say is what is usually done. Mubarak was picked after the assassination of Anwar Sadat, and it was the Army that kept him in power all these years.

 

[Cliffy]

But it had nothing to do with the billions in US support, though, eh?

 

[darkbeaver]

You said: "The Muslim Brotherhood has already been co opted by Mosshad." This is where I get to ask you for proof of the truth of the matter you have asserted. Please provide probative evidence so that we can continue our discussion. Thank you.

So you're saying that we won't discuss anything unless I provide you with evidence for everything we discuss. Won't that be awkward and tedious? Are you a judge?

 

[ironsides]

But it had nothing to do with the billions in US support, though, eh?

Army kept all the Presidents in power no matter who gave them arms and money.

So you're saying that we won't discuss anything unless I provide you with evidence for everything we discuss. Won't that be awkward and tedious? Are you a judge?

Would be nice if somebody who says something to be at least close to being accurate or unless they are having a little memory problem, which reminds me.


http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=HzSaoN2LdfU

 

[CDNBear]

You said: "The Muslim Brotherhood has already been co opted by Mosshad." This is where I get to ask you for proof of the truth of the matter you have asserted. Please provide probative evidence so that we can continue our discussion. Thank you.

Good luck with that.

Facts aren't exactly what the beave deals in.

 

[earth_as_one]

Egypt protests show George W. Bush was right about freedom in the Arab world
Egypt protests show George W. Bush was right about freedom in the Arab world

I'm Just Sayin.. ;-)

There are a lot of obvious errors and spin in the article you referenced.

For example, Hamas didn't win elections because they were better organized that Fatah. Israel and the US interfered in that election by supporting Fatah with money and guns and limiting the ability of Hamas to raise funds and travel to canvas and turned a blind eye to Fatah intimidation at the polls. Hamas won because they weren't Fatah. Palestinians recognized that Fatah had become an American/Israeli puppet and they did not want to be ruled in a sham democracy by a Mubarak-like dictator who represented the interests of foreign powers. I could go through that article and point out many similar questionable/debatable assertions.

Regarding George Bush's stated support of Arab democracy:

While its true that Bush did make statements in support of Arab democracy, those statements were in the context of justifying his illegal invasion of Iraq and not directed at friendly dictators in Tunisia, Egypt or Saudi Arabia. It was pro-war propaganda designed to divert attention away from the fact that nothing was being found in Iraq which supported Bush's pre-war claims that Iraq had WMD stockpiles and was supporting the people who attacked the US on 9/11 and had nothing to do with supporting human rights in countries with pro-American dictators.

Follow the referenced link in the story you referenced, and you'll see his comments were directed at Iraq, not Egypt:
In November 2003, President George W. Bush laid out this question:

But it had nothing to do with the billions in US support, though, eh?

Most Egyptians are well aware of US support for Mubarak. Many Americans are just figuring out that US foreign policy and billions in military and economic have kept Mubarak in power all these years. Very likely Mubarak never paid for a single tear gas canister or rubber bullet used against the protesters. If Mubarak does manage to cling to power, he should thank American tax payers. Which is why Egyptian protesters don't want any more US "aid".

Christian Science Monitor

April 12, 2004
CAIRO

Amid fresh fighting by US forces in Iraq, Sunday's meeting between Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak and President Bush at his Texas ranch serves as a reminder of America's deep involvement in this other key Arab nation.


Aid is central to Washington's relationship with Cairo. The US has provided Egypt with $1.3 billion a year in military aid since 1979, and an average of $815 million a year in economic assistance. All told, Egypt has received over $50 billion in US largesse since 1975.

The money is seen as bolstering Egypt's stability, support for US policies in the region, US access to the Suez Canal, and peace with Israel.

$50 billion later, taking stock of US aid to Egypt / The Christian Science Monitor - CSMonitor.com

If you listen carefully to the words of US leaders and diplomats, none advocate free and fair elections or a true democracy in Egypt. What they support is "restraint" and "reforms". In other words, they still support Mubarak. The US hopes Egyptians will be satisfied with a slightly modified version of the status quo which leaves a pro-American dictator in control of Egypt and they are trying to distance themselves from Mubarak if he reacts to this challenge to his rule as ruthlessly as he has in the past. The American government is no friend of the Egyptian people and the Egyptians know this.

The instigators of the protests know US advocated reforms and restraint will lead back to the status quo and that they are in an all or nothing game. If the leaders of this revolt fail to overthrow Mubarak soon, they face arrest, torture and execution. In other words they are fighting for their lives now as well as freedom and democracy. So there is no going back to the status quo for them.

If Mubarak stays, the leaders of this uprising will die.

The Muslim Brotherhood has already been co opted by Mosshad. The losers will be Israel and the international banking scum. Western standards of living are set to bottom anyway, you're fear mongering is pathetic begging for the consumers ear. He's got no money left, all gone to bonusus you know.

While the Muslim Brotherhood is now part of the uprising, they did not initiate it. Their actions indicate they were as surprised and unprepared for this revolt as Mubarak.

Fear mongers who support Mubarak are trying to link this uprising to the Brotherhood in an effort to portray Egypt as in the process of becoming an Islamic Theocracy like Iran. IMO, this is not the most likely outcome of a successful popular revolt in Egypt. The instigators of this revolt are motivated by poverty and a lack of hope for the future because of rampant corruption and nepotism. Religion is a factor, but this revolt appears mostly driven by the fact that Egypt is divided. At the top is a small minority with connections and wealth. At the bottom is a huge majority who will never see a decent paying job in their lifetime, regardless of their education or how hard they work. The protesters have decided they have no stake in the status quo and nothing to loose by overthrowing their dictator.

If the US continues to support Mubarak and supply him with the tear gas, rubber bullets, armored vehicles and the tools required to ruthlessly suppress this revolt and the revolt succeeds, then I expect the new post revolt Egyptian government will be hostile to all Mubarak supporters both inside and outside Egypt.

 

[Kreskin]

BBC: Egyptian Tanks Surround US, UK Embassies
BBC: Egyptian Tanks Surround US, UK Embassies | World Threats

Oh ****! 8O

Did you forget that Sadat was assassinated during Reagan's watch? Mubarak is Reagan's legacy.

 

[earth_as_one]

It looks like Mubarak is finished.

The military isn't enforcing the curfew. The military appears to be trying to maintain order, preventing violence and looting while taking a position of neutrality. Meanwhile many prison guards have abandoned their posts and thousands of prisoners have been set free. No uniformed police have been seen in Cairo since Friday. Police representatives said they will not interfere with peaceful protests and will return to directing traffic and investigating crimes on Monday. The police have also stated they will not attempt to disperse crowds of peaceful protesters. Many prominent Egyptian citizens including judges, diplomats and business men joined the protesters in Tahrir square today. The United States is now calling for an orderly transition of power, indicating they no longer support reforming Mubarak's dictatorship.

I expect Mubarak will leave Egypt soon and that prominent Egyptian diplomat and Nobel Peace Prize laureate Elbaradei is going to head a transitional government. Hopefully Egyptians will have free and fair elections in the not too distant future.

Chalk one up for the people!

Meanwhile on the satirical side:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] White House Admits Policy Of 'Finger Wagging' At Egypt Has Failed[/FONT]

​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Finger Failure[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Attempts to finger wag Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak into doing the right thing has failed, admitted the White House late last night.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hosni Mubarak vs Barack Obama, during finger wag off[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Defending the finger wagging policy, a White House insider said: [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"It's a judgment call. Some foreign leaders respond to a good finger wagging, others don't.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Unfortunately President Mubarak of Egypt just wagged his finger back. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]It's virtually unprecedented for a world leader to be called to the White House for a full presidential finger wagging only for it to come back with interest. Normally they are scared."[/FONT]
​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Witnesses at the impromptu finger wag off told this website:[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"It was tense. Both were playing up to the cameras, neither was prepared to drop their finger mid wag as that would show weakness. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In the end they both walked out of the room with their fingers in the air, neither of them backing down. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]It was a diplomatic stand off and there were no winners."[/FONT]
​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Have your say.[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://www.thevoiceofreason.com/2011/01/EgyptUSAFingerWagging.htm
[/FONT]

 

[damngrumpy]

Darkbeaver I am not out of touch here. I said they have a rich history and a rich culture. However the
direction of history and culture is not in the hands of the people who built it. They have been taken over
by religious fundamentalists and crazy people who believe in repression and zealotry like no other. Yes
people are right to say there are two groups doing that the above group I mentioned and the other group
of dictators who keep ignorance at bey.
In addition the rich history and culture has not been used to step into the modern world they remain a
backward group of tribal interests, only now its tribal interests with money instead of nomads wandering
about. I love it when people accuse others of having an agenda when they have an agenda of their own.
When someone quotes a person in history is does not mean approval or disapproval, so there is no need
for attempted labels implied or otherwise. Nice touch as many know Mussolini was a fascist an National
Socialist on the extreme right wing. I being a mixture of social democrat and quasi conservative laugh
at the implied label.
Yes I quoted Mussolini, not because I liked him but because he made a famous quote in response to an
angry mob.
I read a lot of anti American rhetoric on most of these issues, and I am not anti American for the sake of being
anti American. I support constructive actions and decisions and I do criticize deficiencies in American policy
but like everyone else not everything is good or bad.
In the Middle East we do not want to see some anti western crazies take more and more of a foothold.
Retired soldier said if Egypt falls, it would make Afghanistan look like an argument. Well if Egypt falls it will
make Afghanistan look like whispers in the hallway of life. The sheer size and influence of Egypt in the Arab
world is enough to shift the balance of power in the entire region. No I don't like the current state of affairs,
but it is a hell of a lot better than allowing religious fundamentalists and radical tribal allegiances to take over
the nations in the Arab world.
As I said they have a rich history and culture all lessons and contributions from the past and now they have to
change their course and join the civilized world. With more social skills, with more economic development and
more education they can crawl out of the dark ages and really embrace democracy and personal freedom,
and get away from extreme conservative social views that institute tyranny on those who don't conform.
Do I like our western influence and actions in the Middle East? No But it is still a lot better than allowing the
fanatical, crazy people running the place. Uncle Sam is still preferable to the crazy people that run Iran, to me
the choice is pretty evident unless of course some prefer the new Dark Ages. Put what ever label you want on it
it still beats subscribing to nonsense.

 

[petros]

It hs to do with money moollah not an Islamic Mullah.

If you've ever been to Egypt you'd have noticed there is no middle class and the poor are dirt poor. Egypt makes incredible money from tourism but like all tourist nations, the further you stray from the glass and chrome the worse the poverty gets. In Egypt the range is from fat people in the north to skin and bone in the south and it's shocking. The govt seriously needs to spread it around.

 

[Nuggler]

;-)............A nifty little quote from the "news'

""
"My perception is these thugs on the street are in large part members of the security services," said Michael Bell, Canada's former ambassador to Egypt.
"If one is cynical enough, one could suppose that these guys are sent into the street to create fear about individual security" to draw people away from the protests and to make them more sympathetic to the president's autocratic style of rule, Bell told CTV News Channel on""""
------------------------

G20, anyone?? The Arcy MP probably trained these pricks; i.e. the guys in the black bellaclavas who where never accosted by the cops.

Just drawing a parallel. Now, back to the OP.................

 

[darkbeaver]

"They have been taken over
by religious fundamentalists and crazy people who believe in repression and zealotry like no other. Yes
people are right to say there are two groups doing that the above group I mentioned and the other group
of dictators who keep ignorance at bey."

They were taken over by Zionists using American hand puppets, machinery and money, and that's the way its been for three decades. Repression and zealotry are bulk commodities in our world and like oil they are bought by the barrel by the man with the bucks. Egypt has the tenth largest army in the world, they are neither backward nor incapable of forming stable government and they very soon will. They will take their rightful place as masters in their own house and Israel will quiver and shake like the cowardly back biting gut wagon dogs that they really are.

 

[gerryh]

"They have been taken over
by religious fundamentalists and crazy people who believe in repression and zealotry like no other. Yes
people are right to say there are two groups doing that the above group I mentioned and the other group
of dictators who keep ignorance at bey."

They were taken over by Zionists using American hand puppets, machinery and money, and that's the way its been for three decades. Repression and zealotry are bulk commodities in our world and like oil they are bought by the barrel by the man with the bucks. Egypt has the tenth largest army in the world, they are neither backward nor incapable of forming stable government and they very soon will. They will take their rightful place as masters in their own house and Israel will quiver and shake like the cowardly back biting gut wagon dogs that they really are.

Only got one drum eh.

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

Egypt is democratic in name only. While the country is far from being a paradise, Iran's government has majority support, contrary to anti-Tehran news media reports. Big difference.

"Democratic in name only" the people in Egypt have found that a sham not good enough anymore.
If Iran's govt has majority support, then why don't they allow free elections?

This could be why govts say nothing when democracy is emerging, an out of touch populous permits leaders to sit on their hands. History is being made, people are desiring freedom and caution is in order? Doesn't it sound like the people of Egypt are speaking? That they want a new dialogue? Yet so called western democracies seem unsure what to do. No wonder people think the west is in decline.

Mubarak must go.

 

[darkbeaver]

Only got one drum eh.

One drum at a time , it's new policy.

 

[petros]

Democracy is a joke.

 

[darkbeaver]

"Democracy is a joke." I think that conclusion has been reached many times since the policy was introduced, when ever that was. Still it has appeal but it is hard to keep it clean in the money jungle,eh. I believe that I would make a beloved benevolent dictator. The work week would be two days and the weekends five. There would be no importation of cloths boots furniture food or fuels, rebuilding domestic industry would be job two, kicking out the bankers would be job one.

 

[eh1eh]

Hey. Listen to a different drum

Al Jazeera English: Live Stream - Watch Now - Al Jazeera English

Certainly much more 'fair and balanced' than Fox.

 

[DaSleeper]

Hey. Listen to a different drum

Al Jazeera English: Live Stream - Watch Now - Al Jazeera English

Certainly much more 'fair and balanced' than Fox.

My computer says that website wants to put something on my computer and if I trust that web site........????

I don't