Criticism of Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity is not Anti-Semitism

[Machjo]

Honestly, the Israeli record is appalling and Jews should be ashamed of it whether they supported it or not, and when they fail to be humane and tolerate the pathetic ways their religious nation state behaves they are doing the world an injustice. It's not enough to just say that Israel is acting as a nation and not as the Jewish people because we all know that's BS.

Why should Jews be ashamed of Israel's record any more than Christians of Canada's or Muslims of Iran's? Not all Jews are Israeli, just as not all Christians Canadian and Muslims Iranian.

If we believe each person is responsible for his own actions, then a Jew is no more responsible for Israel's actions as a Christian is of Canada's or a Muslim of Iran's. No Jew needs be ashamed of Israel's actions. Israel is a state, and certainly those who lead the country ought to take responsibility for their actions, especially their violations of international laws and human rights abuses in Israel. But that does not mean Jews should be held responsible for the actions of those in the Israeli government.

By the way, I as a Canadian don't feel ashamed of the discriminatory clauses of the British North America Act that discriminate in favour of Catholics in education, or the Bill of Rights 1689 which restricts the monarch's freedom of religion, laws designating some religious holidays as statutory, or discriminatory language laws such as the Official Languages Act. Why not? Because I do not support them. So in like manner, an Israeli who does not support his government's unfair laws should likewise not feel ashamed.

So, even ignoring your claim that the Israeli record is "appalling".....I need to ask.......why in the world would you say "Jews should be ashamed of it whether they supported it or not" ??????

If Israel and the Jews are one, then indeed criticizing Israel is anti-Jew.

Good point. The Jewish Faith and the state of Israel are just as separate issues form one another as the Christian Faith from the Dominion of Canada.

And why pick out Israel?

They have a much better record on Human Rights than Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, ...........or Iran. Or Saudi Arabia, or Lebanon, or the UAE......it has BY FAR the best record on Human Rights of any of the established political entities in the region.......all of which are Israel's enemies..........

You are right. However, the thug still doesn't get a pass just because the murderer is worse. Add to that that who is Canada to criticize Israel when we ourselves have discriminatory clauses in our very constitution!

For us to Iran without criticizing Israel is like going after the murderer but ignoring the thief. Then again, criticizing Israel without criticizing Canada is like criticizing the thug while letting the thief go Scott free. Before Canada criticizes any nation, how about we look in the mirror. We restrict our monarch's freedom of religion, give certain religious communities a privileged status in the constitution with regards to education, and discriminate explicitly against Canada's indigenous language communities in the Official Languages Act, not to mention Bill 101. And we've violated treaties entered into in good faith. And we could go on. So really, how can we criticize Israel and be taken seriously ourselves. The idea that 'we're not as bad as they are', or that 'they're worse than us so it's OK' is shameful.

 

[Just the Facts]

I have to wonder why those very same Muddled East Arabs who utter: "death to Israel" didn't eliminate native people of Jewish persuasion before it became a post WW2 warzone

Not for lack of desire or effort:

Photos and Documents of Amin Al Husseini: Nazi Father of Jihad, Al Qaeda, Arafat, Saddam Hussein and the Muslim Brotherhood

 

[lone wolf]

What effort?

 

[Machjo]

Interesting video here on the question of the criticism of Israel and antisemitism. The speaker tends to speak a little too slowly and repeats himself a little too much at the beginning in my opinion, but still a very good speech that breaks things down and makes the complicated quite uncomplicated.

YouTube - Is Criticism of Israel Anti-Semitic? Part 1

This video is a killer. It breaks everything down so logically that in the end, anyone who respects the rule of law has no choice but to admit that Israel must withdraw from occupied Palestinian territory (which from the beginning legally included East Jerusalem), and stop targeting civilians. While the video acknowledges that Palestine is guilty of targeting civilians too, the speaker utterly shreds to pieces any notion, by referencing evidence and international law, that Israel does not target civilians as a matter of policy. The distinction has to do with a good example he gives:

Israel claims that the Palestinian civilian casualties are collateral damage. According to international law, this is inadmissible, and he gives a good example of why. Imagine a Palestinian saying that when they'd bombed a bus full of civilians, they weren't intent on killing the civilians in the bus but just destroy the bus. So when Israel attacks indiscriminately and drops a bomb on a building which kills civilians, and says it did not intend to kill the civilians in the building but just wanted to kill one terrorist in the building, it's the same argument. Force needs to be proportional, and statistically, Israel kills a ratio of four times as many civilians to Palestinian militants as Palestine does IDF soldiers to civilians.

Let the facts speak for themselves. I'm not taking sides here but merely looking at the facts of international law and history. This is not to deny that Palestinians have committed terrorist acts too, nor is it to excuse Palestine on the grounds that Israel is a worse offender in that it has occupied territory (which Palestine has not), built a wall on Palestinian territory, and killed a higher ratio of civilians to militants than Palestine.

The speaker even defends the embargo against Palestine on the grounds that Palestine does engage in terrorism. What he takes issue with though is lack of equal treatment against Israel, and the US' use of its veto power at the UN to allow for any effective action on the part of the UN.

 

[Colpy]

Machjo....that is ridiculous.

Israel did completely withdraw from Gaza in 2005, with intentions of withdrawing from the West Bank as well, if things went well.
They even removed (forcibly) all Jewish settlers from Gaza. Only to have it turned into a launch pad for attacks against them.

They have tried to negotiate the return of Gaza to Egypt, and the West Bank to Jordan.....neither entity is interested.

Jerusalem was taken after Jordan attancked Israel in 1967.....it is not on the table. It could have been an "open city" had not Arafat rejected the peace offered by Ehud Barak to cover his own corruption.....

Israelis killed 700 militants in Operation Cast Lead.....obviously THAT is what they were targeting.

 

[Machjo]

So what part of his speech specifically do you disagree with? Can you quote?

Even the parts you refer too implicitly acknowledge Israel's culpability. According to International la, Gaza was never Israel's to give to anyone to begin with, but only return what never rightfully belonged to Israel in the first place. As for the West Bank, same thing. It has always legally been recognized as occupied territory. As for removing settlers from Gaza, that was not a courtesy but a legal obligation. Israel was merely righting its own wrongs, just as with Gaza and just as it's trying to do with the West Bank. And as for Jerusalem, from the founding of the nation to today, at least East Jerusalem (I'll have to look it up for Wet Jerusalem) ever belonged to Israel to begin with. Looking at it that way, it's not even Israel's to negotiate over.

As for the Palesinians, they are refugees caused by ethnic cleansing. Even prominent Israeli historians acknowledge that. Where the difference lies is:

1. Was it intentional ethnic cleansing or caused by the circumstances of war? Even some Israeli academics believe it was likely intentional.
2. Whether intentional or not, some Israeli academics state that ethnic cleansing may have been a good thing just as that of the indigenous peoples of North America was as a means of creating a new great country.

If all of this is not true, then certainly that professor of history in the video is spreading some pretty vile untruths in the university classroom.

 

[gopher]

''You missed the right thread, the topic, the point and the boat. But don't let that stop you from posting stupidity.''

LOL! That never stopped you from posting your stupidity and making such an ass of yourself that you got banned four times.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!

''As for the Palesinians, they are refugees caused by ethnic cleansing. Even prominent Israeli historians acknowledge that.''

Previously, I have posted links from several Israelis and from American Jewish scholars which confirm that statement. In fact, they are the first ones to attack the notion that anyone who dares to criticize Israeli bigotry and ethnic cleansing is somehow anti-Semitic.

''Photos and Documents of Amin Al Husseini: Nazi Father of Jihad, Al Qaeda, Arafat, Saddam Hussein and the Muslim Brotherhood''

Now compare this:

Lenni Brenner: 51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis

51 Documents:
Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis


Both sides have many skeletons in the closet. Unfortunately, the Islamophobes have a tendency to highlight one side while ignoring the truths about the other.

 

[earth_as_one]

OK. Consider yourself reminded.

If you applied the same critical scrutiny to the evidence you present to us as fact, I would have great respect and admiration for you. If you have any evidence whatsoever that this interview was a fraud, present it, and I will never refer to it again. That's how it's done, when a fact is proven to actually not be fact, one ceases treating it as fact. I trust you will do the same from here on in.

Off topic, but,a single quote out of context proves little and it certainly doesn't support your conclusion that war crimes weren't committed. I'm not sure you understand that this was a "fact finding" mission. Based on the facts, the report concludes both sides committed war crimes. Goldstone had no mandate, or authority to determine individual guilt. I read the highly subjective opinion piece you referenced and its deliberately manipulative propaganda. Its not even good propaganda and I'm fairly certain anyone capable of rudimentary critical thought would have no problem seeing right through it.

Here is an example of a quote in context:

Goldstone:

...Mr. Shalit, thank you very much for your – for your very moving statement and appeal. I can assure you all four of us are parents. Some of us are grandparents so we can empathize with what you and what your family are going through. I think I said that to you in the first e-mail which I sent to you in response to your approach to, uh, to – to the mission. Um, in answer to your – in response to one of your earlier statements I want to make it clear that this is not a judicial commission. It’s a fact finding mission and I think I speak again for all of us in saying that we – we hope above all that our work can assist in bringing about peace and reconciliation. That – that would be our first – our first wish...[/B]

Reference:
United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza conflict
Transcripts of the Public Hearings
Geneva, Morning Session of 6 July 2009

Exactly....anecdotal reports and allegations. You seemed to be amused by me referring to the Goldstone report as anecdotal reports by Gaza citizens. I made it clear that I referred to it as such based on the words of Goldstone himself.

Off topic, but you obviously have not read the report or examined the supporting evidence. Yes eye witness testimony was accepted as evidence, but that was hardly the only evidence. The forensic evidence which supported the eye witness testimony included photographs, chemical analysis, photographs, satellite imagery...

Satellite image analysis in
support to the United Nations
Fact Finding Mission on the
Gaza Conflict

...The available commercial very high resolution satellite imagery proved to be an essential
resource to undertake detailed damage assessments and analyses of destruction patters,
both spatially and temporally. The imagery allowed for time-stamping observed destruction
between specific dates and combined with field reports also to draw conclusions on the
likely cause of the observed building and infrastructure damage, typically found to be aerial
attacks by the IAF or IDF ground forces, including also damage to cultivated land and paved
roads.

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodie...ion/9/docs/UNITAR_UNOSAT_FFMGC_31July2009.pdf

JTF, Can you explain a military purpose for destroying an area in pattern of a "Star of David." on page 13?

.... and so on. The evidence is overwhelming and conclusive, not anecdotal as you mistakenly believe.

Consider this part of the Goldstone Report:
XIII. ATTACKS ON THE FOUNDATIONS OF CIVILIAN LIFE IN GAZA:
DESTRUCTION OF INDUSTRIAL INFRASTRUCTURE, FOOD
PRODUCTION, WATER INSTALLATIONS, SEWAGE TREATMENT
PLANTS AND HOUSING

Based on multiple independent corroborative eye witness testimony and satellite imagery taken before, during and after the operation, objective experts from multiple neutral nations determined that the IDF deliberately destroyed civilian infrastructure as they entered, occupied and exited Gaza. Most civilian infrastructure damage to Gaza industry, food production, water and sewage treatment was deliberate demolition by IDF ground forces as they exited Gaza. Deliberately destroying the ability of a civilian population to produce food, sanatize water and treat sewage is a war crime.

These are "beyond reasonable doubt" level of certainty facts, not an anecdotes.


You referred to it as ""beyond reasonable doubt" certainty". Upon what did you base that assertion?

The facts in the Goldstone Report as supported by personal testimony, forensic evidence and the opinions of neutral experts.

....

Well what about your posting that the Media is Jewish Controlled - What would that be Fify??????????????

I've noticed that many Jews work in the MSM. I've also observed that the MSM tends to report mostly the Israeli narrative, with few exceptions.

Do you disagree that the many Jewish people work in the MSM?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_American_entertainers

So the media industry tends to attract Jewish people. Big deal.

BTW, That's just an observation, just like most of my favorite comedians are Jewish. I'm a huge Woody Allen fan. I also like Jon Stewart, Jerry Seinfeld, Mel Brooks, Al Franken, Bill Maher, Howie Mandel, Gilda Radner and the Marx Brothers. What of it?...
Category:Jewish comedians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't have a problem with Jewish participation in the media industry, nor do I think its a conspiracy. Many Jews are gifted, creative people.

My problem is the tendency of the MSM to be biased in support of Israel. I'd go so far as to say huge segments of the MSM are deliberately manipulative and pro-Israel and many of the most manipulative purveyors of pro-Israel propaganda aren't even Jewish.

Honestly, the Israeli record is appalling and Jews should be ashamed of it whether they supported it or not, and when they fail to be humane and tolerate the pathetic ways their religious nation state behaves they are doing the world an injustice. It's not enough to just say that Israel is acting as a nation and not as the Jewish people because we all know that's BS.

I disagree Skatchie.

Jews have no reason to be ashamed and every reason to be angry that many Zionist war crimes and crimes against humanity have been committed in the name of Judaism. Who gave these people the right to high jack and distort Judiasm???? Many of Israel's fiercest critics are Jews.

The situation facing many Jews is that they do not support Zionist war crimes and crimes against humanity, yet get the blame like they are part of the problem when they are neutral, innocent or even part of the movement to help Palestinians achieve freedom and justice.

The Jews who oppose Zionists who commit war crimes and crimes against humanity in the name of Judaism have as much right to be angry as Canadians who travel abroad have every reason to be pissed that Israeli assassins traveling with Canadian passports and identities endanger Canadian lives:
Mossad's Use of Canadian Passports: Two Reports: Canadian Press Calls for Inquiry into Allegations Regarding Mossad Use of Passports

A Canadian passport could mean you are Canadian, or a Mossad agent on an assassination mission.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Skatchie:
For your information and back on topic:

I tend to agree with the statements made by this Jewish organization

Not in Our Name (NION):
Jewish voices opposing Zionism

We came together to form the Not In Our Name (NION) network in Toronto, Ontario, during the summer of 2006, in solidarity with the people of Lebanon and Palestine against Israel’s wars and in opposition to the complicity of the Canadian government with Israel’s criminal actions.
Our basic principles are:

1. Jewish voices.
We are Jewish Canadians who oppose Israel’s wars, and Israel’s expropriation of Palestinian indigenous lands from 1948 to the present. For centuries prior to such expropriation, Jews and Arabs lived in peace in the region. This expropriation must be acknowledged and its effects, to the extent possible, halted and reversed if there is to be peace once again.

2. Against Israeli apartheid.
We reject the state of Israel’s enforcement of apartheid-like, racist laws that offer privileges to Jews while assigning non-citizenship status to non-Jews, in particular to Arab Palestinians. We oppose the so-called “Law of Return” that offers any Jewish person, from anywhere in the world, the “right” to live and work with full citizenship in the Israeli state, while denying this to expelled Palestinians. We support the right of the indigenous Palestinian population, forced to flee as refugees, to return to their lands, and to receive the fullest possible compensation for their losses in accordance with international law. A democratic secular state that does not enact racist laws holds the only promise that Jews and Arabs, Palestinians and Israelis, can live in peace.

3. We know anti-Semitism, and we oppose it.
We are no strangers to anti-Semitism – in this sense meaning anti-Jewish racism – in Canada and in other countries around the world. Among us are Holocaust survivors and family members of survivors. We and members of our immediate families have suffered discrimination that has forced us to abandon our homes and flee for our lives; to change our names in hopes that we can “pass” as non-Jews; to hide from authorities for fear of risking torture or death. We have witnessed prospects for education and employment vanish for ourselves and for our families. All because of our Jewish identity. But we find no solace from anti-Semitism, no safe haven, in the establishment and existence of a “Jewish state”. As horrendous as the experience of the Jewish Holocaust was, there is no compensation for anti-Semitism in the creation of an ethnically-exclusive state. Instead, we identify with civil rights movements that have organized and built solidarity to resist racism in all its forms wherever it occurs.

4. Judaism is not Zionism.
We understand that Judaism, a religion and/or cultural identity, is not the same as Zionism. Zionism stands for an exclusive Jewish nation-state. Jews – like Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, or those who adhere to any faith – are in no way a single, homogenous population. There are no grounds to assume that all Jews share a single view towards the state of Israel. A number of high profile, well-financed Zionist organizations – including B’Nai Brith, the Canadian Jewish Congress, the Canadian Jewish Political Affairs Committee, the Canada-Israel Committee, and the Friends of the Simon Wiesenthal Centre – claim to represent the Jewish community in Canada. They do not. What they share is a Zionist political stance, an unconditional defense of the policies of the state of Israel. These organizations speak and act for themselves alone, and not in our name.

5. Stop the harassment.
Some Zionist organizations and individuals have falsely charged that solidarity with Palestinian human rights, and opposition to the policies of the state of Israel are tantamount to anti-Semitism. There is no legitimacy to such an equation. Israel is a political entity, a national state, not a house of worship. Zionist organizations or individuals have carried out campaigns of harassment in an attempt to silence legitimate and democratically expressed opposition to the policies and practices of the state of Israel. Such harassment denies freedom of speech and threatens to de-legitimize the Palestinian struggle for human rights. The false charges of anti-Semitism also trivialize the actual experiences of anti-Jewish racism.

The list of overt acts of harassment and interference is extensive. Some recent targets include: democratic labour union processes, where motions of solidarity with the international campaign of boycott, divestment and sanctions against Israel have been advanced (CUPE, May 2006 and OSSTF, January 2007); faith organizations that have adopted campaigns for boycott of Israeli products from illegally occupied Palestinian land (United Church Toronto Conference, June 2006); elected Members of Parliament who visited Lebanon and called for negotiation to advance peace in the region (MPs Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, Ms. Nash and Ms. Mourani, August 2006); students and professors who criticize the state of Israel and who oppose interference in university affairs by Zionist organizations (York University, 2003-2006); artistic and literary expressions (“My Name is Rachel Corrie”, Katherine Viner and Alan Rickman, 2006; Three Wishes: Palestinian and Israeli Children Speak, by Deborah Ellis, 2006).

6. Crimes of the Israeli state.
The attempt to silence dissenting and critical voices belies and obscures Israel’s actions on the ground. It is a myth that Israel was founded on “a land without a people.” In 1948, 800,000 Palestinians were uprooted, 531 villages destroyed and 11 urban neighbourhoods emptied of their inhabitants. As a result of Israel’s wars of 1948 and 1967, there are over 4.3 million Palestinian refugees living in countries in the Middle East. There are an estimated 7.2 million Palestinian refugees worldwide. In Israel, 93 percent of land is reserved for Jews only. Since the 1967 war and illegal occupation of Palestinian territory, 12,000 homes have been demolished and 180,000 olive trees uprooted. Israel maintains control of all land, sea, and air access. Palestinians living in Israel are treated as third class citizens, while Israel exerts total control over Palestinians living in the Occupied Territories, where 75 percent live on less than $2/day. 450,000 Israelis have moved into Palestinian territory on the West Bank, while East Jerusalem, Gaza and the West Bank are under siege. The Apartheid Wall, illegally under construction, will mean that some 50,000 Palestinian farmers will be trapped, separated from their land and access to water. Israel controls and restricts Palestinian access to water, which has had a devastating effect on agriculture.

7. Oppose Canadian government complicity.
The Canadian government has been among the most aggressive in defending the criminal actions of the Israeli state. In July 2004, 150 states in the UN General Assembly voted to demand that Israel comply with the ruling of the International Court of Justice that found Israel’s construction of the Apartheid Wall illegal. Canada, then led by Paul Martin’s Liberals, shamefully was one of only ten countries to abstain. In March 2006, Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s Conservative government made Canada the first country outside of Israel to cut off financial aid to the democratically elected Palestinian Authority government of Hamas. In July 2006, as thousands of innocent Lebanese citizens suffered untold death and injury under Israeli military attack, Stephen Harper declared Israel’s response as “measured”. While Zionist organizations and supporters have pressured the Canadian government to take such positions, we and many Jewish Canadians condemn this complicity. Instead, we support the calls for solidarity in challenging Israel’s wars and occupations that have come from over 170 Palestinian civil society organizations and are endorsed by prominent Israelis and human rights groups, for a comprehensive international campaign of boycott, divestment and sanctions. Both Israel and Canada must be held accountable to international law and international standards of human rights.
Not In Our Name – Jewish voices opposing Zionism
E-mail: info@nion.ca

Not In Our Name (NION) - Statement of Purpose (English)

 

[lone wolf]

Are you part squid?

 

[CDNBear]

Interesting video here on the question of the criticism of Israel and antisemitism. The speaker tends to speak a little too slowly and repeats himself a little too much at the beginning in my opinion, but still a very good speech that breaks things down and makes the complicated quite uncomplicated.

It isn't complicated if you read the actual laws, and how those laws have been historically applied.

Be careful to avoid accepting other peoples opinions as a source.

This video is a killer. It breaks everything down so logically that in the end, anyone who respects the rule of law has no choice but to admit that Israel must withdraw from occupied Palestinian territory (which from the beginning legally included East Jerusalem), and stop targeting civilians.

They did, and they don't.

Finkelstein is a bit of a quack, who also believes that Israel is a lunatic state. His words, not mine. His objectivity is in serious question, in my opinion. But that hasn't stopped me from actually having some similar opinions to his.

While the video acknowledges that Palestine is guilty of targeting civilians too, the speaker utterly shreds to pieces any notion, by referencing evidence and international law, that Israel does not target civilians as a matter of policy.

That being the most monumental difference between Israel and her neighbours.

Force needs to be proportional...

Why?

This silly interpretation of proportional force is manifested in the "on the local street" thinking people seem to try and apply to combat. And foisted as some sort of fact, by groups such as HRW, AI and the UN.

Nowhere in international law does it state that a country under attack, must retaliate with a feather duster. What Israel does, in my honest opinion, is disproportional to the acts it retaliates against. (My opinion is based on my moral code, not law or fact. This is what separates me from the anti semites we see around here. I don't make stuff up or believe anecdotal evidence as if it were fact, to bolster, justify or legitimize my opinion.) But it is just, and legal. Because it retaliates against a specific target. There is no written calculation in international law, as to the amount of lives each side can take. Just because a rocket from Gaza doesn't kill anyone, doesn't mean Israel is breaking the law when it retaliates to that act of war and kills fifteen, civilians or combatants.

Groups like HRW, AI and to some extent, the UN, have adopted the notion that war in and of itself is a crime. Thus any act pursuant to or in the making thereof, is a crime.

It's stupid and counter productive.

Force is met with force. If you attack someone, something, make sure that that someone or something, isn't capable of annihilating you. If you don't and proceed, you receive what you asked for. That's why we have military deterrents in the first place.

What causes the phenomenon we see in the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, where the weaker Palestinians keep losing, but keep causing their own suffering, is the fact that the Palestinians feel justified and vindicated when their acts are equated to "freedom fighters". And Israel is attacked for responding "disproportionately". This simply legitimizes the acts, groups like Hamas use to create more bloodshed, to perpetuate a silly war of propaganda.

That is why it has to stop. If you we cease making either sides acts "righteous", and condemn them equally, there can no longer be any room for interpretation, and the the whole of the conflict is deemed wrong.

LOL! That never stopped you from posting your stupidity and making such an ass of yourself that you got banned four times.

Really? This all you have? A deluded and pathetic little man aren't you.

What exactly does the left progressives, my being banned for attacking the Mods, twice, and then again for making an avatar and a profile pic (note: 3 times and nothing to do with my posts) have to do with the topic of this thread?

Nothing.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!

Quite.

Now stop trying to make this about me, and projecting you inadequacies and post in the right thread, or keep looking like a jackass and don't.

I've noticed...

I've noticed you ignored my challenge.



Thanx for proving me right.

 

[earth_as_one]

Interesting video here on the question of the criticism of Israel and antisemitism. The speaker tends to speak a little too slowly and repeats himself a little too much at the beginning in my opinion, but still a very good speech that breaks things down and makes the complicated quite uncomplicated.

YouTube - Is Criticism of Israel Anti-Semitic? Part 1

....

Norman G. Finelstein's official website:
Norman G. Finkelstein

and
Norman G. Finkelstein If It’s Tuesday, This Must be Anti-Semitism

 

[CDNBear]

 

[ironsides]

Machjo....that is ridiculous.

Israel did completely withdraw from Gaza in 2005, with intentions of withdrawing from the West Bank as well, if things went well.
They even removed (forcibly) all Jewish settlers from Gaza. Only to have it turned into a launch pad for attacks against them.

They have tried to negotiate the return of Gaza to Egypt, and the West Bank to Jordan.....neither entity is interested.

Jerusalem was taken after Jordan attancked Israel in 1967.....it is not on the table. It could have been an "open city" had not Arafat rejected the peace offered by Ehud Barak to cover his own corruption.....

Israelis killed 700 militants in Operation Cast Lead.....obviously THAT is what they were targeting.

Not to many here are interested in the truth, only what terrorist and ultra left wing organizations spout out. Palestinians had their chance and blew it with the rockets they kept shooting at Israel whenever Israel tried giving them back land conquered. Now it is to late, Jerusalem belongs to Israel. Facts can never be proven wrong.

 

[Colpy]

EAO....about Finkelstein.......

Way back at the first of this thread, I posted the following litmus test:

If you hold the Jewish state to a much higher standard than any other state on earth.......

if you approve of the Durban Conference....

if you continue to accuse Israel of murdering police cadets after HAMAS admits they were militants....

if you continue to accuse Israel of target civilians with WP and artillery after HAMAS admits it uses civilians as human shields....

if you make the ridiculous charge of genocide against the Israelis....

if you describe the Palestinians as "starving" and blame the Israelis....in the face of all evidence to the contrary....

if you still call the blockade a "war crime" despite the passage of all food and medical supplies.....

if you accuse the Israelis of murder on the Turkish boat, despite film and eyewitness evidence to the contrary....

Then YES, you are a "joo-hater'

Finkelstein walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, and has feathers....

He is probably a duck.

And yes, I know he is Jewish.......that just makes him more disgusting.

 

[lone wolf]

I wonder why they were so pissed off they fired rockets into their former homeland

 

[earth_as_one]

EAO....about Finkelstein.......

Way back at the first of this thread, I posted the following litmus test:



Then YES, you are a "joo-hater'

Finkelstein walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, and has feathers....

He is probably a duck.

And yes, I know he is Jewish.......that just makes him more disgusting.

Yes Finkelstein is Jewish. Saying Finkelstein is a Joo-hater, means you believe he irrationally hates his Mom, Dad, brothers and sisters, cousins... Frankly that defies common sense. What he hates are the same thing other rational human beings with a sense of empathy and a conscience also hate... war criminals and people who commit crimes against humanity. I share Finkelstein's aversions. You can't even condemn IDF child abductions to force them at gun point to open suspicious packages to check for bombs. Would you care to offer an opinion on this practice???

I'm not Jewish, but Finkelstein is what Israeli apologists would describe as a "self hating Jew" (a ridiculous critical thought defying propaganda term). IMO, Finkelstein, as a Jew, is entitled to hold Israel to higher standards than myself because Israel claims to speak for all Jews. Israel is a nation which practices religious based discrimination and oppression. Judaism is a religion which advocates peace and justice.

 

[Goober]

Yes Finkelstein is Jewish. Saying Finkelstein is a Joo-hater, means you believe he irrationally hates his Mom, Dad, brothers and sisters, cousins... Frankly that defies common sense. What he hates are the same thing other rational human beings with a sense of empathy and a conscience also hate... war criminals and people who commit crimes against humanity. I share Finkelstein's aversions. You can't even condemn IDF child abductions to force them at gun point to open suspicious packages to check for bombs. Would you care to offer an opinion on this practice???

I'm not Jewish, but Finkelstein is what Israeli apologists would describe as a "self hating Jew" (a ridiculous critical thought defying propaganda term). IMO, Finkelstein, as a Jew, is entitled to hold Israel to higher standards than myself because Israel claims to speak for all Jews. Israel is a nation which practices religious based discrimination and oppression. Judaism is a religion which advocates peace and justice.

EWWhat I find irrrational is your aversion to condemning Cubert AKA the Freak for his Nuking Isreal comment - Seems you have that duck quality down to a science.

 

[taxslave]

All you holier than thou jew haters should stop and think about the atrocities carried out by christian Europeans against North American Indians and the many suicide bombings of Israeli schools and busses before you condemn Israel.

 

[Colpy]

Yes Finkelstein is Jewish. Saying Finkelstein is a Joo-hater, means you believe he irrationally hates his Mom, Dad, brothers and sisters, cousins... Frankly that defies common sense. What he hates are the same thing other rational human beings with a sense of empathy and a conscience also hate... war criminals and people who commit crimes against humanity. I share Finkelstein's aversions. You can't even condemn IDF child abductions to force them at gun point to open suspicious packages to check for bombs. Would you care to offer an opinion on this practice???

I'm not Jewish, but Finkelstein is what Israeli apologists would describe as a "self hating Jew" (a ridiculous critical thought defying propaganda term). IMO, Finkelstein, as a Jew, is entitled to hold Israel to higher standards than myself because Israel claims to speak for all Jews. Israel is a nation which practices religious based discrimination and oppression. Judaism is a religion which advocates peace and justice.

So, if you and Finkelstein hate war crimes and crimes against humanity so much, why do you not focus on Hamas, a organization that has as its very reason for existence the extrermination of a nation and a people.....as clearly laid out in its Charter?

Why do you focus on Israel, where two individuals that used a Palestinian boy incorrectly are punished by Israel, while Hamas cries out that the people are a shield for their fighters, loving death...... and no one is punished?

Why do you focus on Israel, which has a large and mostly peaceful Arab population.....when there are no Jews in Gaza........and soon no Christians?

Why do you focus on liberal Israel, while Hamas murders Palestinian homosexuals??? (Who get sanctuary in....Israel!!).....and you turn a blind eye accusing Israel of discrimination and oppression!!!!

Why do you focus on Israel, while Hamas happily approves the arranged marriage of girls not yet to double-digit age???

Why do you focus on Israel, while so many other nations on earth are so much worse, including China and Cuba, both of which have earned your enthusiastis defense......????

Personally, and this is a personal opinion only, I think Dr. Finkelstein is mentally ill. Any man that looks at the ME and accuses Israel alone of being a "lunatic state" has lost his grip on reality.

So, what's your excuse?????

 

[Skatchie]

I've noticed that many Jews work in the MSM. I've also observed that the MSM tends to report mostly the Israeli narrative, with few exceptions.

Do you disagree that the many Jewish people work in the MSM?

List of Jewish American entertainers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So the media industry tends to attract Jewish people. Big deal.

BTW, That's just an observation, just like most of my favorite comedians are Jewish. I'm a huge Woody Allen fan. I also like Jon Stewart, Jerry Seinfeld, Mel Brooks, Al Franken, Bill Maher, Howie Mandel, Gilda Radner and the Marx Brothers. What of it?...
Category:Jewish comedians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't have a problem with Jewish participation in the media industry, nor do I think its a conspiracy. Many Jews are gifted, creative people.

My problem is the tendency of the MSM to be biased in support of Israel. I'd go so far as to say huge segments of the MSM are deliberately manipulative and pro-Israel and many of the most manipulative purveyors of pro-Israel propaganda aren't even Jewish.



I disagree Skatchie.

Jews have no reason to be ashamed and every reason to be angry that many Zionist war crimes and crimes against humanity have been committed in the name of Judaism. Who gave these people the right to high jack and distort Judiasm???? Many of Israel's fiercest critics are Jews.

The situation facing many Jews is that they do not support Zionist war crimes and crimes against humanity, yet get the blame like they are part of the problem when they are neutral, innocent or even part of the movement to help Palestinians achieve freedom and justice.

The Jews who oppose Zionists who commit war crimes and crimes against humanity in the name of Judaism have as much right to be angry as Canadians who travel abroad have every reason to be pissed that Israeli assassins traveling with Canadian passports and identities endanger Canadian lives:
Mossad's Use of Canadian Passports: Two Reports: Canadian Press Calls for Inquiry into Allegations Regarding Mossad Use of Passports

A Canadian passport could mean you are Canadian, or a Mossad agent on an assassination mission.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Skatchie:
For your information and back on topic:

I tend to agree with the statements made by this Jewish organization

Not in Our Name (NION):
Jewish voices opposing Zionism

We came together to form the Not In Our Name (NION) network in Toronto, Ontario, during the summer of 2006, in solidarity with the people of Lebanon and Palestine against Israel’s wars and in opposition to the complicity of the Canadian government with Israel’s criminal actions.
Our basic principles are:

1. Jewish voices.
We are Jewish Canadians who oppose Israel’s wars, and Israel’s expropriation of Palestinian indigenous lands from 1948 to the present. For centuries prior to such expropriation, Jews and Arabs lived in peace in the region. This expropriation must be acknowledged and its effects, to the extent possible, halted and reversed if there is to be peace once again.

2. Against Israeli apartheid.
We reject the state of Israel’s enforcement of apartheid-like, racist laws that offer privileges to Jews while assigning non-citizenship status to non-Jews, in particular to Arab Palestinians. We oppose the so-called “Law of Return” that offers any Jewish person, from anywhere in the world, the “right” to live and work with full citizenship in the Israeli state, while denying this to expelled Palestinians. We support the right of the indigenous Palestinian population, forced to flee as refugees, to return to their lands, and to receive the fullest possible compensation for their losses in accordance with international law. A democratic secular state that does not enact racist laws holds the only promise that Jews and Arabs, Palestinians and Israelis, can live in peace.

3. We know anti-Semitism, and we oppose it.
We are no strangers to anti-Semitism – in this sense meaning anti-Jewish racism – in Canada and in other countries around the world. Among us are Holocaust survivors and family members of survivors. We and members of our immediate families have suffered discrimination that has forced us to abandon our homes and flee for our lives; to change our names in hopes that we can “pass” as non-Jews; to hide from authorities for fear of risking torture or death. We have witnessed prospects for education and employment vanish for ourselves and for our families. All because of our Jewish identity. But we find no solace from anti-Semitism, no safe haven, in the establishment and existence of a “Jewish state”. As horrendous as the experience of the Jewish Holocaust was, there is no compensation for anti-Semitism in the creation of an ethnically-exclusive state. Instead, we identify with civil rights movements that have organized and built solidarity to resist racism in all its forms wherever it occurs.

4. Judaism is not Zionism.
We understand that Judaism, a religion and/or cultural identity, is not the same as Zionism. Zionism stands for an exclusive Jewish nation-state. Jews – like Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, or those who adhere to any faith – are in no way a single, homogenous population. There are no grounds to assume that all Jews share a single view towards the state of Israel. A number of high profile, well-financed Zionist organizations – including B’Nai Brith, the Canadian Jewish Congress, the Canadian Jewish Political Affairs Committee, the Canada-Israel Committee, and the Friends of the Simon Wiesenthal Centre – claim to represent the Jewish community in Canada. They do not. What they share is a Zionist political stance, an unconditional defense of the policies of the state of Israel. These organizations speak and act for themselves alone, and not in our name.

5. Stop the harassment.
Some Zionist organizations and individuals have falsely charged that solidarity with Palestinian human rights, and opposition to the policies of the state of Israel are tantamount to anti-Semitism. There is no legitimacy to such an equation. Israel is a political entity, a national state, not a house of worship. Zionist organizations or individuals have carried out campaigns of harassment in an attempt to silence legitimate and democratically expressed opposition to the policies and practices of the state of Israel. Such harassment denies freedom of speech and threatens to de-legitimize the Palestinian struggle for human rights. The false charges of anti-Semitism also trivialize the actual experiences of anti-Jewish racism.

The list of overt acts of harassment and interference is extensive. Some recent targets include: democratic labour union processes, where motions of solidarity with the international campaign of boycott, divestment and sanctions against Israel have been advanced (CUPE, May 2006 and OSSTF, January 2007); faith organizations that have adopted campaigns for boycott of Israeli products from illegally occupied Palestinian land (United Church Toronto Conference, June 2006); elected Members of Parliament who visited Lebanon and called for negotiation to advance peace in the region (MPs Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, Ms. Nash and Ms. Mourani, August 2006); students and professors who criticize the state of Israel and who oppose interference in university affairs by Zionist organizations (York University, 2003-2006); artistic and literary expressions (“My Name is Rachel Corrie”, Katherine Viner and Alan Rickman, 2006; Three Wishes: Palestinian and Israeli Children Speak, by Deborah Ellis, 2006).

6. Crimes of the Israeli state.
The attempt to silence dissenting and critical voices belies and obscures Israel’s actions on the ground. It is a myth that Israel was founded on “a land without a people.” In 1948, 800,000 Palestinians were uprooted, 531 villages destroyed and 11 urban neighbourhoods emptied of their inhabitants. As a result of Israel’s wars of 1948 and 1967, there are over 4.3 million Palestinian refugees living in countries in the Middle East. There are an estimated 7.2 million Palestinian refugees worldwide. In Israel, 93 percent of land is reserved for Jews only. Since the 1967 war and illegal occupation of Palestinian territory, 12,000 homes have been demolished and 180,000 olive trees uprooted. Israel maintains control of all land, sea, and air access. Palestinians living in Israel are treated as third class citizens, while Israel exerts total control over Palestinians living in the Occupied Territories, where 75 percent live on less than $2/day. 450,000 Israelis have moved into Palestinian territory on the West Bank, while East Jerusalem, Gaza and the West Bank are under siege. The Apartheid Wall, illegally under construction, will mean that some 50,000 Palestinian farmers will be trapped, separated from their land and access to water. Israel controls and restricts Palestinian access to water, which has had a devastating effect on agriculture.

7. Oppose Canadian government complicity.
The Canadian government has been among the most aggressive in defending the criminal actions of the Israeli state. In July 2004, 150 states in the UN General Assembly voted to demand that Israel comply with the ruling of the International Court of Justice that found Israel’s construction of the Apartheid Wall illegal. Canada, then led by Paul Martin’s Liberals, shamefully was one of only ten countries to abstain. In March 2006, Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s Conservative government made Canada the first country outside of Israel to cut off financial aid to the democratically elected Palestinian Authority government of Hamas. In July 2006, as thousands of innocent Lebanese citizens suffered untold death and injury under Israeli military attack, Stephen Harper declared Israel’s response as “measured”. While Zionist organizations and supporters have pressured the Canadian government to take such positions, we and many Jewish Canadians condemn this complicity. Instead, we support the calls for solidarity in challenging Israel’s wars and occupations that have come from over 170 Palestinian civil society organizations and are endorsed by prominent Israelis and human rights groups, for a comprehensive international campaign of boycott, divestment and sanctions. Both Israel and Canada must be held accountable to international law and international standards of human rights.
Not In Our Name – Jewish voices opposing Zionism
E-mail: info@nion.ca

Not In Our Name (NION) - Statement of Purpose (English)

I can dig this.