Are Mexican Drug Lords Armed by the USA?

[Bar Sinister]

At the risk of sparking another acrimonious gun debate I just thought I would ask this question. What does a nation like Mexico do when the drug cartels it is fighting at the behest of the United States are being supplied with most of their weaponry from the US? It is now a fact that many of the members of Mexican drug cartels are better armed and have more ammunition than the Mexican police and armed forces. Drugs cross the border from Mexico to the US, generating large amounts of cash, much of which is used to purchase arms in the US for the arming of the cartels. Given the fact that the US has strongly encouraged Mexico to wage war on the drug cartels why is it that so little is done in the US to halt arms shipments to Mexico? Could it be that the US based NRA, in its eagerness to see every American armed to the teeth, is promoting the very activity that causes so much harm in both Mexico and the US? Based on the evidence it would seem that this is the case.

I am fully aware of the fact that many of the arms possessed by Mexican drug cartels do not originate in the US, but enough of them do that this seems to be a matter that the US should act on. Any suggestions?

Please check these links before replying. They might clarify the matter.

Mexican cartels amass better arsenals, mostly bought in U.S. - KansasCity.com

Mexico is Awash with Weapons - Is the USA to Blame?

Mexico cartels go bargain gun shopping in Houston | Reuters

 

[wulfie68]

I'm not familiar with the laws about buying firearms in the US and taking them to Mexico, but with that porous border I don't know how this can be addressed. The laws covering the sale of firearms, under the umbrella of the 2nd ammendment of their constitution make this pretty hard to control, especially when you consider border states like Arizona and Texas are some places where those gun rights are held most dear. Even if selling guns to foreigners is illegal, how do you stop the drug cartels from using naturalized individuals (not to mention fake IDs) from exercising a right that is constitutionally enshrined, as they look to be currently (the use of "straw buyers" was mentioned in some of the links)?

The only answers I can see would be a constitutional ammendment, which probably wouldn't fly, and if it did, it would still take months to account for a lot of the retailed weapons and ammunition, or someway of sealing the US-Mexican border... and while the US contributes a lot to the cartel arsenals, lets not kid ourselves into thinking that someone else wouldn't fill any void in supply should one arise...

 

[Praxius]

It's indeed pretty odd that the US creates the whole War on Drugs and creates the environment for illegal trafficking and organized crime can flourish...... then complain about all the illegal drug trade and crime that occurs in their own country from Canada and Mexico shipping drugs across the border and expect us all to do something about it..... and while we do, at the very same time, many inside the US are shipping their firearms across our borders in order to help supply and support the illegal drug trade and the organized crime they're complaining about.

But they won't do anything about their side of the problem because it's their God given right to be able to have a Man Made weapon and rather then do anything on their side because it would be a sign of oppression on their God given right, they continue to expect other countries to solve the damn problems they originally created and continue to keep thriving.

Just look at Afghanistan..... Oh we're supposed to protect the civilians, give them a democratic government, a free society and a wonderful life like what we all have..... at least that's what the US tells us what's expected of us..... we're supposed to win the hearts of the people of Afghanistan and let them know we're there to protect them.

....... and then just when our nations are just starting to make headway, suddenly the US Air Strikes a village due to one suspect being found there, they wipe out the suspect along with dozens of civilians..... they get in an uproar, start chanting death to American, death to Canada, death to everybody..... and while the US claims typical collateral, every other NATO nation is picking up the pieces and trying to win back their hearts....... and then another US Air Strike kills a bunch more civilians and we start all over again.

I swear to god it's like a joke to them or something..... they make a bunch of crap up, start whinging and moaning about how horrible something is..... they make a big side show by passing laws and thumping their chests on the camera to look like they're doing something.... then they try and pressure their "Allies" to fix their problems for them that they magically blamed on all of us..... we waste our manpower, resources and time jumping through hoops for them and just when we almost have everything done the way they want, they come along and screw it all up & smash it down..... then make a big stink about it not being done and that the pressure is on to get results..... and we start all over again.

All the while they sit back and laugh their asses off while they watch us mumble under our breaths and continue to put up with their BS.

Why?

Because we're allies for some damn reason?

Bent-over b*tches is more the proper term.

The point being is that if people in the US actually expect any of us to do anything to improve their problems that cross our borders, then they damn well better meet us halfway.... and sending more police to the borders isn't the solution. Do something about their exportation of weapons to our countries and perhaps we can do more against the drug trafficking crossing into their country.

Our nations are not the ones having the serious problem of people doing drugs in the privacy of their own homes/lives...... the US is. The only real issues we have towards crimes relating to firearms is due to drug gangs and trafficking.... which "normally" they're either killing one another or they're shooting at police shooting at them..... which our police are shooting at them because the US has hangups over people buying and using drugs and thus, they made our governments think there's some serious issue too and that it's in our best interests to stop these guys in order to maintain good relations with our neighbor who has the high demand from its people for the drugs they want stopped...... whom those dealing and exporting the drugs are armed by the same bunch who wants their products, yet at the same time doesn't, so they create the force trying to stop their supply, while also arming their supply to stop the force.

It's retarded.

^ And this is exactly what happens when you have a idiotic government in charge that thinks it's their job to determine our own morals on what's right and wrong and tries to enforce their views.

 

[mentalfloss]

Of course they are. It's the same strategy we used to go into Iraq and Afghanistan. Arm your enemies, then blow 'em up, pass go and collect your $200.

 

[Unforgiven]

Understand that while there is a considerable attempt to stop people and drugs from coming into America from Mexico, there is little stopping anyone or anything from getting into Mexico.

 

[Johnnny]

The army in Mexico is very well armed and so are the federal police, the municipal police sucks to be them. But alot of the mexican army and Federal Police that ive seen use some kind of Heckler & Koch G3 which looked pretty ****ty when i saw them. And i would bet money they cant stand up to an M16 bought from a flea market from Nevada or New mexico.... In the Northern mexican states ive seen Soliders with newer battle rifles and crazy tahoe trucks they siezed from cartels.

 

[bill barilko]

I can't see any drug cartel employee cruising flea markets looking to buy used AK 47s.

 

[Colpy]

At the risk of sparking another acrimonious gun debate I just thought I would ask this question. What does a nation like Mexico do when the drug cartels it is fighting at the behest of the United States are being supplied with most of their weaponry from the US? It is now a fact that many of the members of Mexican drug cartels are better armed and have more ammunition than the Mexican police and armed forces. Drugs cross the border from Mexico to the US, generating large amounts of cash, much of which is used to purchase arms in the US for the arming of the cartels. Given the fact that the US has strongly encouraged Mexico to wage war on the drug cartels why is it that so little is done in the US to halt arms shipments to Mexico? Could it be that the US based NRA, in its eagerness to see every American armed to the teeth, is promoting the very activity that causes so much harm in both Mexico and the US? Based on the evidence it would seem that this is the case.

I am fully aware of the fact that many of the arms possessed by Mexican drug cartels do not originate in the US, but enough of them do that this seems to be a matter that the US should act on. Any suggestions?

Please check these links before replying. They might clarify the matter.

Mexican cartels amass better arsenals, mostly bought in U.S. - KansasCity.com

Mexico is Awash with Weapons - Is the USA to Blame?

Mexico cartels go bargain gun shopping in Houston | Reuters

You knew I couldn't resist........

Okay, I read your articles........and people should realize a few things. First of all, usually reporters, especially British reporters, know absolutely nothing about firearms.

For example, the AK 47, most popular gun of the cartels, is not made in the USA. Full auto versions are not available in the USA.

One of the articles even states that 83% of the firearms are NOT traceable to the USA.

Next point.....the 5.7 mm pistols that will penetrate body armour probably do come from the USA.....but are Belgian made. Nowhere does it state how many have been recovered in Mexico.......and besides........ANY centre fire rifle round will penetrate the level II or level III kevlar vests commonly worn.........so the point is moot.

.50 caliber rifles will penetrate engine blocks. Big deal. So will most centre fire rifle rounds of .30 caliber...........50 cals are intended for 1000 meter plus shooting, a feat that requires an incredible amount of skill on the part of the shooter. When cops start getting sniped at 1200 meters, complain to me, until then, the presence of .50 cals is moot.

The murder rate in Mexico is not just higher than that in the USA, it is three times that of the USA, despite Mexico's very strict gun laws. And this is not a recent phenomenon.....in 1997, the Mexican murder rate was 17 per 100,000.................then it dropped to around 11 per 100,000, and has now increased to 15 per 100,000.........................the US rate is slightly over 5 per 100,000

It simply astounds me to hear people acknowledge that the cartels have rockets, grenade launchers, heavy machine guns, thousands of grenades, (none of which can be purchased in the USA), and (by definition) truck loads of money and a sophisticated smuggling system....................but the USA is at fault for Mexican gun crime..........

The Second Amendment is a recognition of a free peoples' right to keep arms to defend their freedom. The idea that it should be limited because of the actions of criminals is, by itself, outrageous.

And when you consider that the criminal element is not even in the USA.........

Outrageous does not even begin to describe it.

Of course they are. It's the same strategy we used to go into Iraq and Afghanistan. Arm your enemies, then blow 'em up, pass go and collect your $200.

Probably one of the most idiotic statements I have yet read on these threads...........displays a lack of knowledge of the facts, and a lack of coherence in the argument.

 

[Unforgiven]

Who needs a kit?

YouTube - Bump fire lesson

 

[Colpy]

Who needs a kit?

YouTube - Bump fire lesson

The Combatants Prayer....

Please Lord, may all my enemies be trained shoot in that fashion........

(as opposed to shoulder the weapon, acquire a sight picture, and squeeze....).

 

[Unforgiven]

The Combatants Prayer....

Please Lord, may all my enemies be trained shoot in that fashion........

(as opposed to shoulder the weapon, acquire a sight picture, and squeeze....).

That's the thing about those drug cartels, always playing by the rules!
My point being that you can buy a kit and make them burst or fully auto easily.
You didn't mention that while Mexico has some strict gun laws, they also have serious
corruption. The most important law is $.

Everyone knows where the guns come from. There is a multi billion dollar lobby that insists that
politicians don't cause a lot of problems for the gun industry in the US. Like massaging statistics
and making points like full automatic ak47s aren't available in the US yet you can buy a kit and make
the conversion yourself. Sure it's against the law but then so is selling a gun to a known felon. Best
to stick with don't ask don't tell.

The ultra-violent drug cartel's prayer, God bless the NRA and American war on drugs.

 

[Tonington]

It simply astounds me to hear people acknowledge that the cartels have rockets, grenade launchers, heavy machine guns, thousands of grenades, (none of which can be lawfully purchased in the USA), and (by definition) truck loads of money and a sophisticated smuggling system....................but the USA is at fault for Mexican gun crime..........

Fixed it for you. But why would drug cartels care about what is legal and what is not? They make their living outside of the law...the law doesn't govern them until they are caught, and even then....

 

[Colpy]

That's the thing about those drug cartels, always playing by the rules!
My point being that you can buy a kit and make them burst or fully auto easily.
You didn't mention that while Mexico has some strict gun laws, they also have serious
corruption. The most important law is $.

Everyone knows where the guns come from. There is a multi billion dollar lobby that insists that
politicians don't cause a lot of problems for the gun industry in the US. Like massaging statistics
and making points like full automatic ak47s aren't available in the US yet you can buy a kit and make
the conversion yourself. Sure it's against the law but then so is selling a gun to a known felon. Best
to stick with don't ask don't tell.

The ultra-violent drug cartel's prayer, God bless the NRA and American war on drugs.

Except that the articles listed by Bar Sinister show that the heavy weapons don't come from the USA, they come from other South American countries.....and why pay hundreds for an AK from the USA, when they available cheaper in full auto the world over?

i mean, these guys have sophisticated South african made grenade launchers.....

The NRA has little to do with the cartels being armed........83% of the firearms seized could NOT be traced to the USA....

As well, these Mexican arseholes appear to be crossing the border into rural areas of the southern states.....were I a US rancher in Texas or Arizona, my FN FAL or my AR 15 complete with 20 or 30 round mags, would be a constant companion.

It is the same old story,. gun control only disarms the honest.

 

[Bar Sinister]

You knew I couldn't resist........

Okay, I read your articles........and people should realize a few things. First of all, usually reporters, especially British reporters, know absolutely nothing about firearms.

For example, the AK 47, most popular gun of the cartels, is not made in the USA. Full auto versions are not available in the USA.

One of the articles even states that 83% of the firearms are NOT traceable to the USA.

Next point.....the 5.7 mm pistols that will penetrate body armour probably do come from the USA.....but are Belgian made. Nowhere does it state how many have been recovered in Mexico.......and besides........ANY centre fire rifle round will penetrate the level II or level III kevlar vests commonly worn.........so the point is moot.

.50 caliber rifles will penetrate engine blocks. Big deal. So will most centre fire rifle rounds of .30 caliber...........50 cals are intended for 1000 meter plus shooting, a feat that requires an incredible amount of skill on the part of the shooter. When cops start getting sniped at 1200 meters, complain to me, until then, the presence of .50 cals is moot.

The murder rate in Mexico is not just higher than that in the USA, it is three times that of the USA, despite Mexico's very strict gun laws. And this is not a recent phenomenon.....in 1997, the Mexican murder rate was 17 per 100,000.................then it dropped to around 11 per 100,000, and has now increased to 15 per 100,000.........................the US rate is slightly over 5 per 100,000

It simply astounds me to hear people acknowledge that the cartels have rockets, grenade launchers, heavy machine guns, thousands of grenades, (none of which can be purchased in the USA), and (by definition) truck loads of money and a sophisticated smuggling system....................but the USA is at fault for Mexican gun crime..........

The Second Amendment is a recognition of a free peoples' right to keep arms to defend their freedom. The idea that it should be limited because of the actions of criminals is, by itself, outrageous.

And when you consider that the criminal element is not even in the USA.........

Outrageous does not even begin to describe it.



Probably one of the most idiotic statements I have yet read on these threads...........displays a lack of knowledge of the facts, and a lack of coherence in the argument.

Yes, Colpy I knew you would be one of the first to reply, but I was hoping that you might be able to suggest a possible solution to the problem instead of denying that it exists. I posted three articles; two supporting the idea that the gun trade in Mexico was primarily a US problem, and one denying it. However, even the one denying it admitted that many of the guns in Mexico originate on the US side of the border. As you correctly point out many of the heavier weapons being used in Mexico probably don't come from the US, but weapons like the Barrett are built in the US originally. Does the US have no rules for tracing where these weapons end up? It appears to be a sad fact that the US love of firearms has a decidedly negative influence outside of the US. I suspect that even the strongest supporter of the NRA would hardly be in favour of the US exporting guns to criminals.

It is also worth noting that the best defence the article denying the problem could come up with it that most weapons could not be traced back to the US. However, not being able to trace the source of weapons imports is not the same as proving that the US was not the origin of these weapons. How do you account for the huge number of gun shops located in US cities close to the Mexican border (1500 alone in Houston according to one article). Obviously a good deal of the laxness of the gun laws in the US are a result of the huge profits to be made. Once again it seems that profits trump morality and common sense.

 

[Trotz]

Mexico as a country has always been in a state of civil conflict since it's independence from Spain. IMO, the Americans could have annexed them over a hundred years ago when Mexico only had a population of 8 million people and I bet Mexico wouldn't the trash dump it is today.

As I understand, Northern Mexico is still underpopulated so I think the Americans could do us all a favor and annex Northern Mexico and on the brightside it would decrease the distance of fencing needed.

 

[bill barilko]

Mexico as a country has always been in a state of civil conflict since it's independence from Spain. IMO, the Americans could have annexed them over a hundred years ago when Mexico only had a population of 8 million people and I bet Mexico wouldn't the trash dump it is today.

As I understand, Northern Mexico is still underpopulated so I think the Americans could do us all a favor and annex Northern Mexico and on the brightside it would decrease the distance of fencing needed.

It's painfully obvious the poster as quoted has never been to Mexico.

In fact what the tragically limited individual envisions is happening in reverse-as anyone who's travelled outside the trailer park knows.

Aerial Photographs of Mexico City (English)

 

[Colpy]

Yes, Colpy I knew you would be one of the first to reply, but I was hoping that you might be able to suggest a possible solution to the problem instead of denying that it exists. I posted three articles; two supporting the idea that the gun trade in Mexico was primarily a US problem, and one denying it. However, even the one denying it admitted that many of the guns in Mexico originate on the US side of the border. As you correctly point out many of the heavier weapons being used in Mexico probably don't come from the US, but weapons like the Barrett are built in the US originally. Does the US have no rules for tracing where these weapons end up? It appears to be a sad fact that the US love of firearms has a decidedly negative influence outside of the US. I suspect that even the strongest supporter of the NRA would hardly be in favour of the US exporting guns to criminals.

It is also worth noting that the best defence the article denying the problem could come up with it that most weapons could not be traced back to the US. However, not being able to trace the source of weapons imports is not the same as proving that the US was not the origin of these weapons. How do you account for the huge number of gun shops located in US cities close to the Mexican border (1500 alone in Houston according to one article). Obviously a good deal of the laxness of the gun laws in the US are a result of the huge profits to be made. Once again it seems that profits trump morality and common sense.

I certainly did not deny that there is a violence problem in Mexico, and that it is largely the fault of the Cartels.


The problem is I don't think there is a solution.......not an American one, at least.

In the USA, firearms are traceable to the shop where they are sold, at least...........but there the trail gets complicated, as it should. If the firearms are traceable to point of sale, then any firearm (83%) listed as untraceable did not come from the USA........at least that is how it would seem. As for 1500 gun shops in Houston.......that is a city of 2 million people......Texans all.........and I suspect you mean 1500 people that hold a license to sell firearms. Seems high, but a lot of people keep Federal firearms licenses in the US so they can order firearms out of state....I sincerely doubt there are 1500 storefront gun businesses in Houston.

Laxity in US gun laws is because the people there actually appreciate their hereditary freedoms, and will not tolerate their gov't interfering with same.....and good for them.

BTW, the only Texan gun owner that I know owns more than 60 firearms.

Let me restate one thing....there simply is NO WAY you can prevent a cartel that has hundreds of millions of dollars and a sophisticated smuggling apparatus from being heavily armed. It is not possible. You can make high quality submachine guns in the basement with a moderately sophisticated machine shop...........

No sense in infringing on peoples' freedoms........

 

[lone wolf]

Sure they are ... and wherever else they peddle their product. People give them money, they get dope. They have money; they get weapons. Quit chasing the drug. Legislate and control it. Take the incentive away from organized crime.

 

[petros]

Let me restate one thing....there simply is NO WAY you can prevent a cartel that has hundreds of millions of dollars and a sophisticated smuggling apparatus from being heavily armed. It is not possible. You can make high quality submachine guns in the basement with a moderately sophisticated machine shop...........

No sense in infringing on peoples' freedoms........

And because of this the Kalashnikov has been improved upon to become the most common and deadliest weapon ever made.

 

[Colpy]

And because of this the Kalashnikov has been improved upon to become the most common and deadliest weapon ever made.

Actually, there are a few weapons out there superior to the Kalishnakov......the AR 15/M4/M16/C7 family being one of them....

Superior ballistics, superior inherent accuracy, superior sights, superior optical sight system, super handling characteristics, lighter.......

And yes, I've fired both.