Have any of you guys even been to mexico outside the resorts? The mexican military and federals have alot of organization there battle rifles may be a little more out of date but when they are on the move the dopers run.
Are Mexican Drug Lords Armed by the USA?
- Thread starter Bar Sinister
- Start date
Most of the arms used by the Mexican drug cartels can be bought over the counter legally in the U.S.. This fact has nothing to do with gun control, it is not the legally sold guns to individuals that are the problem. Heavy weapons (Stinger missiles, machine guns, mortars LAW M-72 etc.) can be and are hijacked in quantity either from State National Guard or just surplus military equipment sold by individuals who work at the depots. You want real bargains try the old Soviet Bloc nations. Weapons can be found all over the world.
...or the classifieds in Soldier of Fortune....
...M-60. Great condition. Barrel obstructed.....
six ads later:
...Six replacement barrels for M-60
...M-60. Great condition. Barrel obstructed.....
six ads later:
...Six replacement barrels for M-60
Yes I've travelled/lived/worked in Mexico @ various points of my life since the early 80's-and Yes the Army is a force to be feared-if someone gets into a battle with the Army it's generally because they have their back to a wall/are crazy jacked up on Coke or both.
Actually I think it has a great deal to do with gun control. When hundreds of American gun shops are selling to people whose only motive is making a quick buck by passing on their purchases to gun runners that is carrying the right to bear arms to an extreme not intended by those who framed the US constitution. At the very least the arms trade originating in the US is immoral. I wonder what would happen if US criminals were arming themselves with weapons purchased in a another country? Actually, we already know the answer to that; they send predator drones after them or engage in carpet bombing.
Why not use the Predator Drones against the drug cartels in Mexico, all we have to do is let Mexican goverment operatives handle the targeting.
Bar, we need B-17's, B-29's or B-52's for carpet bombing. Need the right weapon to do the right job. You ought to try going into a U.S. gun shop and ordering 1,000 weapons of any kind and watch how fast your carried off.
Bar, we need B-17's, B-29's or B-52's for carpet bombing. Need the right weapon to do the right job. You ought to try going into a U.S. gun shop and ordering 1,000 weapons of any kind and watch how fast your carried off.
So much for the opening line of the thread...
Next time you want to start an argument like this, just man up and do it, instead of pretending otherwise.
I'll confess that I agree with some of what you are saying (personally, I don't have any use for handguns). My biggest issue is the fact that you seem to want to plant the problem exclusively at the feet of the United States, and not the criminals in Mexico, or even the legal system in Mexico that allows this situation to exist. Does not the lion's share of any and all blame reside with those who make the conscious decision to indulge in lawless behaviour? The United States HAS laws that prohibit the smuggling of these weapons but people choose to break them, as they do laws on any otyher type of criminal activity. The stance you echo is eerily similar to groups like MADD, when they want to go after liquor stores, bars and serving staff because some idiots don't make proper choices and insist on drinking and driving. The "immorality" of the arms trade also isn't solely a US thing: its something that can be shared with various European nations (FN weapons are made in Belgium, Steyr is Austrian, Heckler & Koch is German, FAMAS is French), and this doesn't get into the source of the most popular assault rifle in the world, the venerated AK-47, developed in Russia and exported by both Russia and China.
Wiki's link on the arms industry ( Arms industry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) shows us the top 15 arms exporters and, oh shucks, even us Canadians have a place on the list at number 14!
We get it that most Canadians (and some Americans) don't like the lack of gun control in the US (I don't particularly like it and I now live in Pennsylvania with my American wife and American-born son) but its not something the vast majority of us can honestly say we are fully informed on or that we have the right to complain about. We have enough of our own issues to deal with before we can start telling everyone else how to run their own countries.
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You are displaying something of a gift for misreading my posts. I made no effort to blame the entire gun problem on the US, but I would like to see the US make some effort to curb an arms trade it would not tolerate if the situation was reversed. Gun control from the point of view of this issue is making certain that the freedoms of one country do not cause problems in neighbouring countries. In other words the right of Americans to own guns should not result in some of those guns being used to kill Mexicans and Canadians.
You appear to be blithely unaware of the fact that arms dealers in the US make a practice of selling large quantities of arms to individuals who are clearly gun-running. All it would take is a simple law requiring bulk arms sales to be screened before delivery of the arms is completed. However, states like Texas, Georgia, and a number of others will not do this, thus contributing to the
flow of illegal guns to neighbouring countries. Since some of those arms end up in Canada as well in Mexico that gives me every right to comment on events in your country. Or does democratic thought end at the US border?
As for "manning up" I have never liked the expression as it seems to infer that women do not have the intelligence to comment. My comments are generated by my brain and not my testicles.
I also note that your post contains not a single suggestion to the problem. Instead you attempt to spread the blame to other nations even going so far as to imply that Canada engages in illegal gun exports. Have you any proof of this or is it so much smoke blown up to obscure the real issue?
I find this a bit irritating. The thread title suggests the U.S. government might be officially providing armaments to Mexican drug lords when the real question is where are the weapons being purchased. It's fairly easy to buy a variety of guns in the U.S., I could go across the border to North Dakota and buy one tomorrow if I had the appropriate fake IDs, but that in no sense means the U.S. is providing me with firearms.
Yet the US is the only country you single out. Despite the fact that most of the weapons in question are not traceable to the US. Despite the fact that the most popular weapon, the AK-47 is something developed and exported from former communist countries and up until a decade or so ago couldn't be legally sold in the US, if it is even now.
And if the Americans made similar demands to Canada, you would no doubt be angered for them intruding upon our sovereignty and interfering with our affairs.
You're right. I am unaware that US arms dealers make legal sales to illegal gun runners. I haven't seen any proof, nor have you provided anything to back up that assertion. All I've EVER seen,even remotely related to this tangent are allegations by Toronto politicians that the hand guns used on their streets are American in origin, with little proof presented to back them up.
BTW, my passport is still Canadian, not American. My country is really irrelevant, but if nothing else it ought to show you that jumping to incorrect conclusions is way too easy...
I implied that other nations are involved because it obvious from the articles, which talk about heavy weapons coming from other nations, mainly via supposed South American routes of import. It also cannot be discounted when the point of origin for the vast majority of the weapons is unknown, and that means ALL arms exporting countries, including us up in Cannuckistan are possible contributors. The problem isn't American, its Mexican. Yes, US authorities should try to work with the Mexican authorities to stop any flow but the solutions need to originate where the laws are being broken, and so far the main place where it can be seen/proven it is broken is Mexico.
I'm always fascinated by how people are insistent on due process for so many things, yet are willing to assume guilt, based on allegations and nebulous evidence on others, as long as it suits their own world view or ideology...
Here is a page linking to the US manufacturers of AK-47s. I hope that helps with your first point. AK-47 Manufacturers & Builders
Actually, no I wouldn't. If Canada was trading aims to US criminals I would be appalled and encourage the Canadian government to prevent such an action. But it is a bit of a moot point isn't it since Canada does not engage in such arms sales?
I suspect your ignorance of the matter may be largely due to the fact that you have chosen to ignore it. Evidence of illegal gun sales from the US to Canada and Mexico are easy to find online. However, since you have decided not to check things out for yourself I have done it for you.
Feature Focus: The Illegal Firearms Market in Canada
Story of an Illegal Handgun : Firestar 45 - New York City Initiative : the fifth estate : CBC News
Sorry, I was mislead by this statement: I don't particularly like it and I now live in Pennsylvania with my American wife and American-born son. What did you expect me to think? I wasn't born in Canada - did you assume I was?
No disagreement on the fact that a good deal of the problem originates in Mexico. However, it seems to be a bit of a double standard to ask Mexico to combat the drug trade in its side of the border and then do nothing to prevent drug dealers from arming themselves using sources of arms that are almost certainly inside the US. I note that you have not attempted to explain the presence of the thousands of gun shops located in states near the Mexican border. Even in the gun-crazed US that seems a bit extreme.
You might also want to look at the problem of drug trafficking from a Mexican point of view. If Mexico was so inclined it could simply ignore the drug trade, after all it brings billions in US dollars across the border. Instead, encouraged by the US, Mexico has attempted to fight the drug trade at great cost to its society. The least the US could do would be to institute some sort of simple check on where arms sales in the border states end up.
Here is a US source that you might be more inclined to believe. Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence : Limiting Bulk Sales
I think I have provided more than enough evidence to support my position. It looks to me as if you are accusing me of having a point of view that is closer to the way you think. So far all you have provided is simple denial. Do you actually have any evidence to support your claim that almost no US weapons are traded illegally across the the Mexican border from the US? If so please provide it. I haven't been able to find any and in answering your post I instituted about 20 Google searches. Provide me with an argument supported by some evidence and I will admit the correctness of your position.
You still "prove" nothing. The entire approach is like taking a hand full of wet sand, throwing it at a wall and seeing how much sticks. You have precious few facts to support your stance that the vast majority of weapons in Mexico come from the US, yet you are insistent that they bring in laws that would likely be found to be unconstitutional to try and curb this issue.
You ignore the fact that most guns recovered in Mexico are untraceable. Now, given the availability of firearms in the US, it seems likely that many more could originate there, but it is NOT PROVEN. Since it is not (can not be?) proven, how can anyone insist that the American gov't turn their entire society upside down, on what has been a politically contentious issue for decades, trying to rectify the situation. You willingly ignore the fact that other countries do export arms (while the USA is #1, we have companies that export arms from Canada as well, as I pointed out to your indignation) which means there are other possible sources for the weapons, and in some cases there is strong evidence to believe there are other sources (citations of heavy weaponry from South America and Africa were in the articles... why would someone use a different supplier for their lighter arms if they could get them all from one source? Its seems a reasonable question to me in the absence of real data).
You post up next to meaningless fluff links about current US manufacturers of the AK-47, blithely ignoring my statement that most of those weapons originated in either former Soviet Bloc or Chinese armouries (where literally millions were manufactured and exported to all corners of the globe, including South and Central America) and has only been produced in the US for the past 10-15 years.
The other leap of faith-disguised-as-logic you seem to be requiring is that we think of all these weapons in terms of handguns, when many of the weapons used by the cartels are assault rifles and fully automatic weapons, which are not available to the American public. Yes, I am aware many assault rifle knock-off semi-automatics can be converted to full auto by someone with some knowledge and mechanical aptitude, but how far do we expect the manufacturers and retailers to go? I may roll my eyes at someone who wants a semi-automatic M-16 look alike to go hunting deer but as long as he obeys the laws, is that cause to make his rifle illegal vs my old .30-30 lever action?
In the end, I don't mean to be acting as a defense for the US arms industry, but more of a jury that says you don't provide enough evidence to convict. There are intuitional links that I can follow and make sense but they are just that: intuition, not evidence.
You ignore the fact that most guns recovered in Mexico are untraceable. Now, given the availability of firearms in the US, it seems likely that many more could originate there, but it is NOT PROVEN. Since it is not (can not be?) proven, how can anyone insist that the American gov't turn their entire society upside down, on what has been a politically contentious issue for decades, trying to rectify the situation. You willingly ignore the fact that other countries do export arms (while the USA is #1, we have companies that export arms from Canada as well, as I pointed out to your indignation) which means there are other possible sources for the weapons, and in some cases there is strong evidence to believe there are other sources (citations of heavy weaponry from South America and Africa were in the articles... why would someone use a different supplier for their lighter arms if they could get them all from one source? Its seems a reasonable question to me in the absence of real data).
You post up next to meaningless fluff links about current US manufacturers of the AK-47, blithely ignoring my statement that most of those weapons originated in either former Soviet Bloc or Chinese armouries (where literally millions were manufactured and exported to all corners of the globe, including South and Central America) and has only been produced in the US for the past 10-15 years.
The other leap of faith-disguised-as-logic you seem to be requiring is that we think of all these weapons in terms of handguns, when many of the weapons used by the cartels are assault rifles and fully automatic weapons, which are not available to the American public. Yes, I am aware many assault rifle knock-off semi-automatics can be converted to full auto by someone with some knowledge and mechanical aptitude, but how far do we expect the manufacturers and retailers to go? I may roll my eyes at someone who wants a semi-automatic M-16 look alike to go hunting deer but as long as he obeys the laws, is that cause to make his rifle illegal vs my old .30-30 lever action?
In the end, I don't mean to be acting as a defense for the US arms industry, but more of a jury that says you don't provide enough evidence to convict. There are intuitional links that I can follow and make sense but they are just that: intuition, not evidence.
Well, I stand corrected.....at least partially, as none of these I looked at (very quickly) actually builds the AK from scratch....most either customize them or assemble them from off-shore parts. And NONE are built in full auto.
My point still stands, I bet the cartels are not buying expensive US assembled semi-auto AKs, when cheap full autos can be had for a tenth of the price around the world.
And who the heck would buy an AK when an AR 15 was available????
Some of the very best combat pistols on earth are made at Para-ordnance.....in Toronto, Ontario. Are you sure none of them are in the hands of criminals? By your logic, if they are, Canada is responsible.
Personally, I think the entire subject is a red herring........an excuse to castigate the Americans for being a free country, a grasping attempt to once again engage in that sickening Canadian pastime of feeling morally superior, with or without reason.......rich smuggling organizations will be armed to the teeth, with or without lax American gun laws.....that are guaranteed under their Constitution.
Never met many Texans....have you?? LOL And, btw, the majority do NOT come from the USA, according to your own article........
How the hell would you do that????
BTW, every firearm made or imported to the USA is traceable to point of sale........83% untraceable in the USA means 83% were NOT bought there from federally licensed firearms dealers.......this is a backdoor excuse to criticize the Americans for not having Canadian style abusive firearms legislation....which inevitably leads to confiscation..........the Yanks are perfectly correct in resisting any additional gun control. In fact, the trend for 20 years has been loosening restrictions in the IUSA.
LOL!!!! ROTFLMAO!!!
If the Brady Campaign told me water was wet, I'd have to check it out !!!
Nobody said NO weapons went across the border......
As for your position, the only legitimate way to tackle this (unimportant) problem is to promote a Constitutional amendment to the US Bill of Rights.
Simple as that.
The U.S. AK-47's are not cheap copies starting at $388+ for new ones, Semi- Automatic only), ones bought from the European and Asian countries can be had for $10 - $75 per in quantity (fully and semi automatic). (enough to start a small revolution)
The Mossad is behind it all.
Do you use the fake ID before you go buy the gun and get the import permits from Canada Customs?
There are not hundreds of people trying to make a quick buck by selling to the cartel. An individual cannot just go and buy a thousand or two weapons legally or otherwise from a gun shop. Now if that gun shop was involved with smuggling weapons that is another thing. (organized crime can get anything in any quantity) The penalties for smuggling a gun into Mexico or selling a legally purchased firearm to a non-resident is just to high and not worth the risk. Right to bear arms has nothing to do with arms trading. We do get weapons purchased in other countries, almost any small weapon in the world can be purchased by anyone with a permit (legally). The right to bear arms is one of the few rights we still have that has remained relatively unchanged. As you have found out, we are a proud and stubborn people. There are some things worth dieing for and the Constitution is one of them. By the way, weapons move by ship across the border. Border crossings usually only stop individuals carrying weapons for self protection.
Now looking at the problem from a Mexican point of view. Mexico is basically a two class society, rich and poor. When oil was discovered 20-30 years ago, they had such high hopes for a strong middle class. That ended quickly and evolved to what we have today. The rich have the National Army to protect them from the cartel, the poor have no one or maybe a cartel. Mexico refuses to allow U.S. troops to cross the border because of fear (by the poor, cartel propaganda) that we will stay or take territory as we did in 1845. If the Mexican national Army in unison with the U.S. Army launched a coordinated attack against the cartels the Mexican drug war would be squashed at least for a few years.
No to Brady bill. just opinion.
I said I could, not that I do, all my firearms were legally acquired in Canada and are properly registered. I had a long chat about this with a guy at a sporting goods shop in Minot a few years ago (I bought fishing equipment). The fake ID is necessary--and it has to be pretty good and thorough, a North Dakota drivers license won't do it, you have to prove citizenship and residence, but it can be done--because they can't sell to Canadians. If I were going the illegal route I wouldn't be concerned about import permits either.