AnnaG
That is why Drano has warning labels - Do Not Drink - Lots of dumb out there. I see them everywhere I go.
Human foetus feels no pain before 24 weeks
- Thread starter Praxius
- Start date
That is why Drano has warning labels - Do Not Drink - Lots of dumb out there. I see them everywhere I go.
As JLM pointed out, it's just simple logic. SJP doesn't handle logic very well though. I've tried logic, I've tried biology and chemistry, I've indulged his requests...
If we compared him to a football match, he could never be offside....
If we compared him to a football match, he could never be offside....
Been of the threads for a bit - only had time for off and on - Did you get the other house?Everything except the pot holes.
Or is it always on field Nope. A bit premature I think. Ahh well. Many years ahead of us yet.
I am not aware that anybody has tried to shut down prolife organizations on university campuses.
Life does not begin at fertilization, the sperm and egg are very much alive before fertilization.
I am not sure what number you are asking for, Goober. Is it number of late term abortions for frivolous reasons? Then try zero. In Canada, no doctor will perform an abortion after 20 weeks of pregnancy unless there is a serious risk to mother’s health.
Even though there is no law regulating abortions in Canada (and I don’t think any law is needed), the medical community does a pretty good job of policing itself.
Most of the references in this website say that development of human life begins at conception, I don't have a problem with that. The relevant question is, when does it become a human being? We don't know.
Incidentally, the website also affirms the view that life is a continuous process, it is a continuum.
This website simply lists a bunch of books without telling us what they say.
This website does not say that human life begins at conception. This is what it says:
Each human life begins with a single, microscopic cell. This single cell contains no bones, liver, brain, or any other adult tissue, but does contain a full complement of genetic instructions (genes) to specify all these tissues. In this very real sense, our genome is a blueprint for people. The genetic blueprint encodes the sequences of all the proteins within our bodies and also programs human development for all stages of our lives from the single cell to old age.
Which sounds reasonable to me, I don't think anybody would have a problem with that. But how does this translate into fetus being a human being since conception?
College of Family physicians is the official body representing Canadian Family Physicians and a such, its views carry a lot of weight. This is a very long publication. I skimmed thought it, but I did not see it say anywhere that human life begins at conception.
Incidentally, saying that human development begins at conception is not the same as saying that fetus is a human being from conception. All it means is that the process of becoming human starts at the conception. We still cannot say at what stage it becomes a human being.
Sаbine;1297864 said:
OK, let us take a look at a couple of the quotes, most say pretty much the same thing.
"[The Zygote] results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm ... unites with a female gamete or oocyte ... to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual."
"In this text, we begin our description of the developing human with the formation and differentiation of the male and female sex cells or gametes, which will unite at fertilization to initiate the embryonic development of a new individual. ... Fertilization takes place in the oviduct ... resulting in the formation of a zygote containing a single diploid nucleus. Embryonic development is considered to begin at this point... This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development."
What they are saying is that human development begins at fertilization. Which is true enough (and obvious enough), I don’t think there anybody would have a problem with that.
What they are saying is that the process of forming a human being begins at fertilization. But where does it end? That is the crucial question. When the process is complete, we have a human being. At the beginning, the human being is beginning to be formed. It is a potential human being.
I looked at all the quotes. But none of them say that the fetus is a human being at conception. In fact, they steer clear of the question as to when fetus becomes a human being, because we just don’t know.
I think most of us would agree that development of human being starts at conception. But many of us will disagree as to when the process has reached a point at which we may refer to the fetus as a human being.
Last edited:
First point - Read up on Calgary and other Universities - if you read other newspapers besides the Globe and TO Star you would be aware - but to you they are Conservative types and so not worth reading.
As to after 20 weeks - you state no doctor would do that - Do some goggling on it - you will be surprised. Other wise prove that point - It should be readily available as the hubby of a doctor that every prov and Fed association of Doctors prohibits this excepting, rape, incest, mothers life in danger. Don't look to hard because you will not like the answer - that is if you can get a straight answer.
Professions policing themselves is equivalent to the RCMP investigating the Tasering of that fellow in the Vancouver Airport - Why should professions be exempt from oversight of qualifies individuals - are we all to stupid to understand i think not - Reason they are left alone is Political power - They are all corrupt in one forum or another - no oversight - what does it lead to - The old adage applies - Absolute Power corrupts - And prov Govts are scared stiff of the Doctors Associations -
As to saying when a human being becomes one is another argument - some will say 20 weeks - some will state 24 weeks - some will state upon fertilization - You have you opinion I have mine - But AnnG and Sabina should have killed off your other aguements. That is unless you are so wrapped up you cannot accept being in error.
"I looked at all the quotes. But none of them say that the fetus is a human being at conception. In fact, they steer clear of the question as to when fetus becomes a human being, because we just don’t know."
Anyone that doesn't know is a frickin' idiot, it is human the instant it becomes a fetus..........it's obviously not dog, cat or porquepine.
Anyone that doesn't know is a frickin' idiot, it is human the instant it becomes a fetus..........it's obviously not dog, cat or porquepine.
They have not killed off anything, Goober. They have not put up any evidence to show that fetus is a human being since the moment of conception. The literature they have cited say that conception is an important landmark, it forms the blueprint for a human being and human development begins at conception (and I don’t have a problem with that). But when has the development gone far enough so that we may call the fetus a human being?
We don’t know the answer to that.
Answer my other questions - Calgary U - banned Pro Life org - Late term Abortions - yes the frivolous types - Medical staff ordered to shut up - check it out - ask your wife what the polices as i stated and are they followed. Eagerly waiting for that reply - You will not like the answer.
There is no question of denial here, Goober; prolifers just have not made their case. Not in this forum, not in the society in general. Saying that human development begins at conception (with which most would agree) is a far cry from saying that fetus is a human being at conception.
Did Calgary ban a pro life organization? Could you put up a link for that? I don't think any university did that, but it is possible, I suppose. anyway, if they ban a pro life organizaton, they can always go to the court. If the ban was unjust, courts will overrule the university. That is what the courts are for.
Interesting discussion on a usually worn out topic - enjoyed reading it this morning.
If people agreed in toto we would have no discussion and I appreciate SJP for hanging in there without fleeing the scene as some writers would - or lowering his level of communication - but maintaining enough response to
generate further commentary.
That's what is great about forums - not to "win" an argument but to engage fully in one where nobody is trying to rape your mind - but confirm what you believe (or not).
Thanks for the good read. Curio
If people agreed in toto we would have no discussion and I appreciate SJP for hanging in there without fleeing the scene as some writers would - or lowering his level of communication - but maintaining enough response to
generate further commentary.
That's what is great about forums - not to "win" an argument but to engage fully in one where nobody is trying to rape your mind - but confirm what you believe (or not).
Thanks for the good read. Curio
Having a bunch of letters after one's name does not preclude them from being an idiot. :smile:
You should know enough about me by now to know that I never run away from a discussion. The more adversaries there are, the better it gets my juices going.
But I have been thinking about it and really, what Anna or Sabine have posted indirectly supports pro choice position. Saying that human development begins at conception (with which I agree) implies that at least for a while after that, it really cannot be called a human being.
Let me illustrate by a couple of examples. I am an IT professional, suppose I am writing a computer program that will run into several thousand statements. Now the development of the program may begin with a simple declarative statement, defining the size of an array.
DIM A(100)
I am sure most will recognize this simple statement. The development of the program starts with this statement. Does that mean that we now have a program? It doesn’t, it will have to be developed considerably more before we will have a recognizable program.
Or let us say I want to make an apple pie. The development of the apple pie will start with washing and slicing the apples. But can we say that we have an apple pie after we have sliced apples? We cannot, the pie has to at least proceed to the point where it can be put in the oven, before we can say that we have an apple pie.
Similarly, if we say that human development starts at conception, it implies that at least for a while after that, it cannot be considered a human being.
SirJoseph
I congratulate you on your tenacity and your ability to keep the discussion level on a higher plane
than so many I have read regarding "the beginning of life".
In truth I have pretty much turned my own opinions over to "what does it matter?" until some day in
the future perhaps I will be required to make a statement official in a vote or some kind of determination but hopefully I will outlive mankind's ongoing exercise to examine creation to suit lifestyle.
There is room for everyone and we need to appreciate that we are allowed to argue in public about so many things when in earlier times humans lost their lives in so doing.
The internet may be adding to what previously television removed from our learning processes.
I congratulate you on your tenacity and your ability to keep the discussion level on a higher plane
than so many I have read regarding "the beginning of life".
In truth I have pretty much turned my own opinions over to "what does it matter?" until some day in
the future perhaps I will be required to make a statement official in a vote or some kind of determination but hopefully I will outlive mankind's ongoing exercise to examine creation to suit lifestyle.
There is room for everyone and we need to appreciate that we are allowed to argue in public about so many things when in earlier times humans lost their lives in so doing.
The internet may be adding to what previously television removed from our learning processes.
I imagine for you the subject may be of personal importance. At some future date, you (being a woman) may well have to make the tough decision as to whether to have an abortion. Also, it is quite possible that you may be asked to vote in a referendum on abortion at some future date.
If your Supreme Court overturns Roe vs. Wade and hands the issue of abortion back to the states, I assume many of them will hold referendum on the issue, and you may be called to vote on it.