Human foetus feels no pain before 24 weeks

[Avro]

The answer has to be no, it depends upon circumstances. But that holds true for abortion at any stage. A woman cannot choose to have an abortion no matter what, even in the early stages. Her doctor has something to say in the matter. If doctor says that it is medically unsafe for her to have an abortion, then she cannot have one.

During delivery of course, the criterion is much tougher. There has to be serious danger to mothers health or some long term disability for her to have an abortion.

But if you want a simple answer, then the answer is no.

So you are not pro choice.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

No-one else is credible except NEJM, CMA, AMA, or GMC? That's like saying I'll only accept evidence from New Scientist about whether oil is bad for the environment. :tard:

Besides, if geneticists prove that life at least begins at cellular division, anyone else's opinion about further stages of development is rather moot, I'd say.

I did not say they are not credible, I just don't know. I know bodies such as AMA, CMA are credible and what they say carries a lot of weight.

As I understand, GMC, BMA, AMA and CMA support a woman's right to abortion. GMC's position is particularly interesting. When abortion was legalized in 1965, both GMC and BMA (British Medical association) opposed its legalization.

I was in UK when they tried to restrict abortion in the 80s. At that time, both GMC and BMA opposed any attempts to restrict abortion.

So you are not pro choice.

Really? How do you define pro choice?

 

[Avro]

I did not say they are not credible, I just don't know. I know bodies such as AMA, CMA are credible and what they say carries a lot of weight.

As I understand, GMC, BMA, AMA and CMA support a woman's right to abortion. GMC's position is particularly interesting. When abortion was legalized in 1965, both GMC and BMA (British Medical association) opposed its legalization.

I was in UK when they tried to restrict abortion in the 80s. At that time, both GMC and BMA opposed any attempts to restrict abortion.



Really? How do you define pro choice?

I'll repeat, can a woman, no matter the circumstances, choose to abort a baby during labor?

Yes or no.

 

[Tonington]

Show me a scientific textbook which says that life (or human life) begins at conception. Or show me a paper in reputable biological sciences journals, such as Nature, Lancet, New England Journal of Medicine etc.

I did.

So...what now?

 

[AnnaG]

I did not say they are not credible, I just don't know. I know bodies such as AMA, CMA are credible and what they say carries a lot of weight.

As I understand, GMC, BMA, AMA and CMA support a woman's right to abortion. GMC's position is particularly interesting. When abortion was legalized in 1965, both GMC and BMA (British Medical association) opposed its legalization.

I was in UK when they tried to restrict abortion in the 80s. At that time, both GMC and BMA opposed any attempts to restrict abortion.



Really? How do you define pro choice?

Textbook: Developmental Biology 9e Online: When Does Human Life Begin?

American Bioethics Commission: American Bioethics Advisory Commission

Canadian Physicians for Life - When do human beings begin?

Induced abortion, as interpreted by the CMA,
is the active termination of a pregnancy
before fetal viability. In this context viability
is the ability of the fetus to survive
independently of the maternal environment.
According to current medical knowledge
viability is dependent on fetal weight, degree
of development and length of gestation;
extrauterine viability may be possible if the
fetus weighs over 500 g or is past 20 weeks’
gestation, or both (Gestation begins at
conception).

http://policybase.cma.ca/dbtw-wpd/PolicyPDF/PD88-06.pdf

Determination of viability implies that there is life to begin with.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I'll repeat, can a woman, no matter the circumstances, choose to abort a baby during labor?

Yes or no.

I thought we have already been through this, I gave you my answer. So what is the point you are trying to make?

I did.

So...what now?

You did what? I asked you if it is used as a textbook at university level (and if so which university uses it as a text book), and you didn't answer.

Textbook: Developmental Biology 9e Online: When Does Human Life Begin?

Again, which high school or university uses it as a textbook?

 

[Avro]

I thought we have already been through this, I gave you my answer. So what is the point you are trying to make?

Yes or no SJP.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Yes or no SJP.

Look, I don't see any point in going over the same ground again and again. I gave you my answer in post #204. So again, what is the point you are trying to make?

 

[Avro]

Look, I don't see any point in going over the same ground again and again. I gave you my answer in post #204. So again, what is the point you are trying to make?

Yes or no?

One word.

 

[JLM]

The question of "when life begins" in conjunction with discussing abortion is getting kind of boring and tiresome. Show me one instance where someone had an abortion BEFORE life begins. :roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:

Yes or no?

One word.

Hey Avro- one piece of advise- direct your question to someone who is an expert on the matter and knows what the hell, he/she is talking about. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

[Avro]

The question of "when life begins" in conjunction with discussing abortion is getting kind of boring and tiresome. Show me one instance where someone had an abortion BEFORE life begins. :roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:



Hey Avro- one piece of advise- direct your question to someone who is an expert on the matter and knows what the hell, he/she is talking about. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Just trying to cement the goal posts in the ground so SJP can't keep moving them.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Yes or no?

One word.

One word. Post #199.

 

[Avro]

One word. Post #204.

I know what you said there SJP, among many other things.

I want a one word answer to the question.

Can you do it?

It's important, in that it defines your position on choice.

Now go ahead....yes or no?

 

[pezlops]

You seem to keep getting the goal post shot, you might as well pull out your own teeth than get a plain yes or no.

 

[Tonington]

You did what?

I showed you a text book that stated the life of a human being begins at conception. It's a textbook used for "medical students, undergraduate students, and nursing students" according to Elsevier's web listing.

I asked you if it is used as a textbook at university level (and if so which university uses it as a text book), and you didn't answer.

First, you didn't ask which universities use it. Second, the web listing from Elsevier did state it is used by students.

I can't show you which universities use Integrated Principles of Zoology as a introductory text for biology students. It's sitting on my shelf, I know it's a text book, but there's no website online where it says my university uses this text book.

Move goal posts much?

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I know what you said there SJP, among many other things.

I want a one word answer to the question.

Can you do it?

It's important, in that it defines your position on choice.

Now go ahead....yes or no?

OK, this is the second time I am answering it, there won't be a third time, no matter what you say.

No.

You did what?

I showed you a text book that stated the life of a human being begins at conception. It's a textbook used for "medical students, undergraduate students, and nursing students" according to Elsevier's web listing.

First, you didn't ask which universities use it. Second, the web listing from Elsevier did state it is used by students.

I can't show you which universities use Integrated Principles of Zoology as a introductory text for biology students. It's sitting on my shelf, I know it's a text book, but there's no website online where it says my university uses this text book.

Move goal posts much?

Saying that some students use it as a textbook does not really tell us much. The reason I asked for a textbook or a paper in a reputable, refereed journal such as Nature or Lancet is that there is peer review, any material written is judged by the peers before it is published (in journals).

If a university used a book as a textbook, that tells me that a team of experts at the university has looked over the book carefully and agrees with pretty much everything the book says. There are some standards involved there.

Anybody can write a book, that means nothing. And if some students use that as a textbook, again, that doesn’t mean much. A student may like parts of the book and not other parts; he may simply ignore the parts he doesn’t agree with.

That does not happen with a textbook adopted by the university or a paper published in a reputable journal.

That is why I asked for a textbook, not a book which is used by some students as a textbook. There is a big difference.

And if it is being used as a textbook by a university then one must look at calibre of the university. It is Harvard or Oral Roberts University?

 

[TenPenny]

Oh my god.

 

[Curiosity]

Sounding like an echo baying into the night....I repeat:
Were humans of all opinions regarding abortion to place as much energy into seeking and demanding an alternative to conception of pregnancy - there would be no argument regarding "when life begins" and what a relief it would be to have well-intentioned people finally having their wishes on both sides of the issue met.

 

[JLM]

Human foetus feels no pain before 24 weeks | News.com.au

Well once again, just as I originally thought in regards to brain development, etc..... this is yet another study that backs the position I had all along.

Which means anybody who continually used the argument about fetuses feeling pain as their defense against abortions can chuck that pile of crap out the window & try and think of something new.

What is the difference between a "foetus" and a "fetus"?

Sounding like an echo baying into the night....I repeat:
Were humans of all opinions regarding abortion to place as much energy into seeking and demanding an alternative to conception of pregnancy - there would be no argument regarding "when life begins" and what a relief it would be to have well-intentioned people finally having their wishes on both sides of the issue met.

I think "when life begins" Curio is irrelevent to the topic and is just a red herring some like to throw in ...................:iconbiggrin::iconbiggrin::iconbiggrin::iconbiggrin:

 

[Curiosity]

Thanks JLM The argument without fail deteriorates into the two sided issue when there is a possibility there could be no argument whatsoever if medical science could "get some cojones" and create what could potentially delete anydiscussion whatsoever being voiced/written without end. Perhaps it is the argument itself which keeps the solution shelved.