So you are not sure then?
If your wife were giving birth and the baby was beginning to crown and she changed her mind about having the child would you concede?
Why?
What if it's her choice to abort?
Human foetus feels no pain before 24 weeks
- Thread starter Praxius
- Start date
So you are not sure then?
If your wife were giving birth and the baby was beginning to crown and she changed her mind about having the child would you concede?
Why?
What if it's her choice to abort?
Like I said, you can cling to your belief if you like. I posted a link where scientists claim fetuses feel pain after 20 weeks. Ignore it if you wish but don't claim no-one showed differing evidence.
Well, yes, they feel pain after the gestation period. And that's why late abortions seem less acceptable than early ones. It is up to the doctor's to ensure the right type of anesthetics are provided at that time, though those types of drugs complicate the issue for the mother - which also makes late abortions less likely.
But again, there are indeed options for late abortions that satisfy the requirement to minimize pain and suffering for both parties involved.
This is too late though..
Avro said:
Well, I'm pretty sure that if we have a head poking out, it's probably a bit too late to begin considering an abortion - since it would be difficult for the doctor to get the proper materials ready and ensure the child and mother do not suffer any pain during the murder/killing/uterus scraping.
Keep in mind that free choice is within the context of real world variables.
No, I said it is not a simple yes/no question and the proper answer is determined based on the situation at hand.
As remote and illogical as your hypothetical is, by that stage whatever her decision is would be irrelevant and the child would be born regardless.... this has nothing to do with rights, but to do with medical procedures and what the Doctors would deem be the most appropriate course of action. If she was suddenly so dead set against having the child at that very moment, which is kind of ridiculous, then one (the doctor) would probably determine there is a mental distress at that point and could possibly argue she was not of sound mind to make that decision at that particular time, that their oath of do no harm would apply if the child is just about to be born and there is no physical harm to the child or the mother, her right to choose would be too late and to even sway to her decision of aborting the whole thing wouldn't work, because there wouldn't be enough time and the most logical course of action would be to continue the birth and if she still doesn't want the child after the fact, adoption is available. If she hypothetically didn't like this course of action, then A) She should have thought about it before the baby was falling out of her and B) She is more then free to bounce this situation around in the courts to determine what the right course of action was.
And if you do not like that answer, then I would suggest you stop asking me questions, cuz that's about as clear and good as my answers are going to get.
I must have missed that... I will review next chance I get, which will probably be tomorrow.
Exactly.
I think "murder" is a legal term and as the courts don't seem fit to see that a child is a human being before it is out of the womb, "murder" is not applicable. "Killing" is applicable and the small thing inside a woman's womb is definitely alive and is definitely human.
Quite so. Anti-abortionists glibly claim that abortion is murder, but where is the evidence, other than in Bible?
There is no consensus as to when life or human life begins. Show me a scientific textbook which says that life (or human life) begins at conception. Or show me a paper in reputable biological sciences journals, such as Nature, Lancet, New England Journal of Medicine etc.
That depends upon the woman, doesn't it? Some may never abort, some others may have no problem aborting in the earlier stages of pregnancy.
Under some circumstances, yes. If mother's life is in danger or mother may suffer some permanent disability, it is perfectly OK to abort during the labour, the so called partial birth abortion.
I think such situations used to occur in the old days, when medicine was not as advanced as today. The doctor would give the woman (or rather, the man) the choice, save the mother or save the baby?
That is where we disagree. I can well imagine circumstances where it is OK, perhaps even necessary to abort during childbirth.
It is alive, yes. But then it was also alive before conception, in the form of sperm and egg. As to its being human, we don't know when it becomes human. There is no scientific consensus on this.
Here's just one.
Amazon.com: Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects (Before We Are Born:…
Page 1:
Zygote: This cell, formed by the union of an oocyte and a sperm, is the beginning of a new human being.
There's no consensus, but consensus is not proof of anything other than that many agree on something. Consensus told us that the universe was geocentric at one time.
Scientific books? I would think there is just as many scientific books claiming life begins around conception as otherwise.
As far as papers in journals go, read what geneticists say. Over the months I have been here, I posted many links to journals, essays, etc. authored by geneticists (and other real scientists).
Developmental Biology 9e Online: When Does Human Life Begin?
American Bioethics Advisory Commission
Canadian Physicians for Life - When do human beings begin?
There are loads more publications if you look.
Is that a textbook? Is it used to teach courses in Embryology at the universities?
That wasn't the question.
If a woman chooses, no matter the circumstance, can she abort during delivery?
It's a simple yes or no.
Who cares? Whether it is a textbook or not is irrelevant as to its accuracy. :tard:
Do some looking for yourself:
embryology textbook - Google Search
That is the problem, for something as important as abortion, there has to be a consensus, otherwise nothing gets done. Weighty, influential bodies like GMC (in UK), AMA or CMA have to say openly that fetus is a human life since conception. That will carry some weight.
If one expert says that human life begins at conception and another says we don’t know, it does not really carry any weight. It is a question of choose your viewpoint and then choose an expert who agrees with you.
I don’t know about others, but for me, if GMC, AMA and CMA all come out saying that human life begins at conception, that it fetus is human since conception, I will change my views on abortion.
I would have thought the "6th Edition" prominently displayed on the cover would have been a give away.
It's printed by Elsevier (a prominent publisher of scientific material, both textbooks and scholarly journals):
Before We Are Born - Elsevier
"Audience:
Medical students, undergraduate science students, nursing students"
No-one else is credible except NEJM, CMA, AMA, or GMC? That's like saying I'll only accept evidence from New Scientist about whether oil is bad for the environment. :tard:
Besides, if geneticists prove that a human life at least begins at cellular division, anyone else's opinion about further stages of development is rather moot, I'd say.
The answer has to be no, it depends upon circumstances. But that holds true for abortion at any stage. A woman cannot choose to have an abortion no matter what, even in the early stages. Her doctor has something to say in the matter. If doctor says that it is medically unsafe for her to have an abortion, then she cannot have one.
During delivery of course, the criterion is much tougher. There has to be serious danger to mothers health or some long term disability for her to have an abortion.
But if you want a simple answer, then the answer is no.