Israel 'attacks' Gaza aid fleet

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
53
48
Yeah, huh. If Israel just stopped killing people, the entire ME would be such a peaceful place; a veritable utopia....
I make no such claims.

People who commit war crimes and crimes against humanity should be held accountable for their actions. I certainly don't think they should be supported or ignored.

People should know more about this conflict than what normally makes our news, which includes the evidence behind the serious war crimes and crimes against humanity charges leveled at Israel by the ICRC, Amnesty International, the UNCHR, and pretty much every human rights group which has looked at this conflict.

I'm researching many things and if I come across something I think may/should concern people, I share. You don't have to read my posts and you are certainly welcome by me to add your own thoughts on this subject. I try not to be rude or disrespectful of others.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
21,887
848
113
70
Saint John, N.B.

A massacre! A holocaust! A Genocide! the guy from Gaza says....


A massacre!

Yep. One that killed 1400 people in 22 days of attacks by one of the world's most advanced military....on one of the world's most densely populated areas.......and a high percentage of those killed were armed militants. That is called RESTRAINT, no matter what the individual tragedy.....

A holocaust!

uh huh.........yep.......that's what I saw! 135,000 dead AT MOST in 62 years of warfare.......that includes everyone, Palestinians, Israelis, Arab soldiers, in every situation, 4 all-out wars, several incursions, day to day conflict.........and includes an unverifiable accusation of 50,000 Arab civilians killed. Need I point out a REAL Holocaust?

A genocide!

Yep, one so effective that the population of Gaza has jumped from 497,000 in 1980 to 1.34 million today, and one where the life expectancy of a Gazan at birth is 5 years LONGER than the world average. If the Israelis are attempting genocide, they are incredibly BAD at it!

You can post the emotional blackmail all you want, swallow the poison pill of Islamist propaganda........but the facts speak for themselves.
 

AnnaG

Hall of Fame Member
Jul 5, 2009
17,507
117
63
I make no such claims.

People who commit war crimes and crimes against humanity should be held accountable for their actions. I certainly don't think they should be supported or ignored.

People should know more about this conflict than what normally makes our news, which includes the evidence behind the serious war crimes and crimes against humanity charges leveled at Israel by the ICRC, Amnesty International, the UNCHR, and pretty much every human rights group which has looked at this conflict.

I'm researching many things and if I come across something I think may/should concern people, I share. You don't have to read my posts and you are certainly welcome by me to add your own thoughts on this subject. I try not to be rude or disrespectful of others.
But the trouble is, you seem only to research and post stuff against one side. There are a couple more posters that do the same thing. That shows a distinct bias.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
53
48
Judge for yourself. Compare my above post with the wiki defn.

wiki:
The intentional killing of a considerable number of human beings, under circumstances of atrocity or cruelty, or contrary to the usages of civilized people.

the massacre on St. Bartholomew's Day (Modern estimates for the number of dead vary widely between 5,000 and 30,000 in total)

St. Valentine's Day massacre (the murder of seven people as part of a Prohibition Era conflict between two powerful criminal gangs in Chicago, Illinois, in 1929)

Amritsar massacre (Official British Raj sources placed the fatalities at 379, and with 1,100 wounded)

the w:Wounded Knee massacre (about 146 men, women, and children of the Lakota Sioux)

IMO, massacre was the correct noun.

I've observed that Israeli massacres against these people which have been going on for decades are becoming bigger and more frequent. The real question is at what point do repeated and ever increasing massacres become genocide?
 

AnnaG

Hall of Fame Member
Jul 5, 2009
17,507
117
63
Judge for yourself. Compare my above post with the wiki defn.

wiki:


IMO, massacre was the correct noun.

I've observed that Israeli massacres against these people which have been going on for decades are becoming bigger and more frequent. The real question is at what point do repeated and ever increasing massacres become genocide?
If it is genocide, why are there still Pallies inside Israel? Why not just off them in one big push and get it over and done with?
Genocide is a exaggerative stretch.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
53
48
Colpy, do you believe these statements are accurate?
Israeli war crimes

Using chemical weapons including using white phosphorus to scorch and burn people and structures.

Using civilians including children as human shields. (IDF soldiers forced innocent civilians at gunpoint to walk in front of them as they advanced into enemy territory; Innocent civilians were held bound in pits surrounded by razor wire adjacent to tanks and artillery as they shelled the victims' family, friends and neighbors; ...more examples in various HR reports)

Summary detention, torture and execution of innocent civilians for purposes which include extracting intelligence, blackmailing people into collaborating with the IDF, revenge, out of boredom...

Bombing hospitals, firing upon ambulances and deliberately killing unarmed medics and ambulance drivers...

...
WARNING: Powerful First Person Testimony (no graphic images)
YouTube - Testimonies from Gaza [english subtitles]

No one can watch that video and support what Israel has done and continues to do to this people....

You should watch the above video Colpy. If you are going to claim Israeli actions are completely justified, you should at least know what Israel does.

If it is genocide, why are there still Pallies inside Israel? Why not just off them in one big push and get it over and done with?
Genocide is a exaggerative stretch.

AnnaG,
I said massacre, not genocide. Massacre is the correct noun to describe that incident which cruelly killed between 1,166 and 1,417 Palestinians and 13 Israelis.

At what point do repeated massacres become genocide? Also, does deliberately causing a plague and famine cross any lines for you? I describe that action as a crime against humanity, since it affects 1.5 million people.


I don't support war crimes or crimes against humanity by anyone.

IMO, A person would have to be willfully ignorant or cruelly callous to support what Israel does.
 

AnnaG

Hall of Fame Member
Jul 5, 2009
17,507
117
63
I said massacre, not genocide. Massacre is the correct noun to describe that incident which cruelly killed between 1,166 and 1,417 Palestinians and 13 Israelis.
"The real question is at what point do repeated and ever increasing massacres become genocide?" And yes, you have used the term before.

At what point do repeated massacres become genocide? Also, does deliberately causing a plague and famine cross any lines for you? I will describe that action as a crime against humanity, since it affects 1.5 million people, about a million of whom are refugees displaced during Israel's repeated ethnic cleansing activity...

I don't support war crimes or crimes against humanity. A person would have to be willfully ignorant or cruelly callous to support what Israel does.
And just as ignorant and callous to ignore what is done to Israelis.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
41,030
43
48
Red Deer AB
And just as ignorant and callous to ignore what is done to Israelis.
Being a civilized Nation they should demand the ICC fully investigate each incident, so far all there complaint only make it as far as the soap-opera press.

The idea of being civilized means the score for both sides should be as close to zero as possible. So far it is lopsided and that is purpose built. Rather than it being called it's real name they will just have a note beside their grave, 'fought to the last man'. Who do you think they will be coming after Gaza and the West Bank no longer exist.

Look how pissed they are at Turkey, the ship that could have halted the flotilla was disabled while still in port. And you think that attitude will ever change no matter how many people are destroyed by her paranoia.

They can already get a Canadian MP in hot water, when do we get to add a Star of David to our flag? They even have death threats sent to their own MP's. The security staff is probably going to end up being the ones that finally kill her for the crime of going on a boat ride to see Gaza from the sea.

We should be able to demand Israel not say anything bad about who we have chosen to be one of our NATO partners. Instead you will cheer Israel on.

lol patriotic to an extreme, it is called collective blindness.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
21,887
848
113
70
Saint John, N.B.
EAO In a massacre, only the intended victims are slaughtered. However unbalanced, 13 Israelis (by your count) were killed in the Gaza operation.

Do I believe the Israelis used WP to scorch and burn people and structures???

Yep. It is a fuking WAR.....structures get scorched....and so do people that are in the way. Guess they should get rid of Hamas, eh?

Do I believe the Israelis used human shields??

Perhaps. Certainly Hamas does, and I could see a level of frustration that would make the Israelis loose it. Absolutely no excuse for this kind of behaviour......no excuse good enough. I never said the Israelis were perfect.

Do I believe the IDF practises summary detention, torture and execution of civilians......?

No. Well, except for detention......but torture and execution as a policy of the IDF??? No. There is no capital punishment in Israel.....even the worst scum terrorist child killers serve out a life sentence. Pure propaganda.

Do the Israeli bomb hospitals, shoot at ambulances, kill medics?

As a policy? No. If they are being fired upon from a hospital? Yes, as they have no choice. as for ambulances, they have been used by Hamas and Hezbollah to move men and material, which puts them directly on the shoot list. Killing medics "on purpose"? Not as a policy. Although it might happen sometimes. Medics always get it in the neck in war.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
117,211
14,250
113
Low Earth Orbit
Yep. It is a fuking WAR.....structures get scorched....and so do people that are in the way. Guess they should get rid of Hamas, eh?
Why is there a Hamas? I keep hearing you blame Hamas for pulling triggers on Palestinian women kids and elderly, stealing aid, using white phospherous, obliterating the entire infrastructure of Gaza with Hamas F-16's and Hamas Apaches. Blame shifting is pretty damn lame and is all just a repeat of the evening news with the bland leading the bland.

A 150:1 ratio is not defensive measures, it's offensive and disgusting.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
21,887
848
113
70
Saint John, N.B.
Why is there a Hamas? I keep hearing you blame Hamas for pulling triggers on Palestinian women kids and elderly, stealing aid, using white phospherous, obliterating the entire infrastructure of Gaza with Hamas F-16's and Hamas Apaches. Blame shifting is pretty damn lame and is all just a repeat of the evening news with the bland leading the bland.

A 150:1 ratio is not defensive measures, it's offensive and disgusting.

Let's see.........somewhere between 500 and 700 of the dead were armed militants (and yes, that includes police)

In the 10 months after the conflict, less than 300 rockets were fired into Israel.

in the year before the conflict, over 3000 rockets were fired into Israel.

Damn well sounds defensive to me.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
41,030
43
48
Red Deer AB
Yep. It is a fuking WAR.....structures get scorched....and so do people that are in the way. Guess they should get rid of Hamas, eh?
There life was lake that since '67, that is why Hamas go elected.
If that is the way war is quit bitching when some rockets without warheads come flying out, only a true fuktard would call the police a terrorist organization. Hope you use that term the next traffic stop you're in.

You forgot to explain the wildly varying birth-rates. BTW
 

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
8,583
60
48
United States
There life was lake that since '67, that is why Hamas go elected.
If that is the way war is quit bitching when some rockets without warheads come flying out, only a true fuktard would call the police a terrorist organization. Hope you use that term the next traffic stop you're in.

You forgot to explain the wildly varying birth-rates. BTW

Hamas took over Gaza by force. Gave Israel a one year extension of the truce (probably to solidify their position more) Refused to honor any past treaties or agreements between the Palestine goverment and Israel. The EU, U.S. and Israel cut off all aid to Hamas. The EU, U.S. and Israel also began arming Fatah. So we didn't cut off aid to Gaza, just the Hamas goverment,
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
117,211
14,250
113
Low Earth Orbit
Let's see.........somewhere between 500 and 700 of the dead were armed militants (and yes, that includes police)

In the 10 months after the conflict, less than 300 rockets were fired into Israel.

in the year before the conflict, over 3000 rockets were fired into Israel.

Damn well sounds defensive to me.
Fired into Israel or fired at Israeli occupational settlements in Palestine? Would those be offensive or defensive?
 

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
8,583
60
48
United States
Yes I trust Amnesty International to objectively report what's going on here. I also trust the International Committee of the Red Cross, Human Rights Watch and other humanitarian groups. I am better informed about this conflict than people who get their viewpoints from cable TV.

I know you trust Amnesty International, it is obvious I don't. Just because you think your right, does not make Canada or the U.S. wrong. We do not support terrorist organizations. The solution is quite simple for the Gaza and Israeli citizens, just get rid of Hamas, return Fatah to power. The UN possibly then could possibly provide security if that were to happen, but I doubt if it would be needed.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
41,030
43
48
Red Deer AB
Hamas took over Gaza by force. Gave Israel a one year extension of the truce (probably to solidify their position more) Refused to honor any past treaties or agreements between the Palestine goverment and Israel. The EU, U.S. and Israel cut off all aid to Hamas. The EU, U.S. and Israel also began arming Fatah. So we didn't cut off aid to Gaza, just the Hamas goverment,
Your 'probably' statement is 'probably ' in error. They are determined to have the UN rule on events starting back as far as Nov '47. They have that right to peruse such action, that Israel and the US is blocking them just means they have a strong case. Honor agreements that Israel is free to break whenever they wish, you really are in dreamland aren't you. You are starting to sound like the ones JFK warned us about. Whole lot of statement very little fact.

Hamas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
After winning a majority of seats in the Palestinian Parliament in the January 2006 Palestinian parliamentary elections,[7] and defeating rival Palestinian party Fatah in a series of violent clashes, since June 2007 Hamas has governed the Gaza portion of the Palestinian Territories. The European Union,[8] Israel,[9] Japan,[10] Canada,[11] and the United States[12] classify Hamas as a terrorist organization. Hamas was created in 1987 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi and Mohammad Taha of the Palestinian wing of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood, at the beginning of the First Intifada, an uprising against Israeli rule in the Palestinian Territories. Through its funding and management of schools, health-care clinics, mosques, youth groups, athletic clubs, and day-care centers, Hamas by the mid-1990s had attained a "well-entrenched" presence in the West Bank and Gaza.[13] An estimated 80-90% of Hamas revenues fund health, social welfare, religious, cultural, and educational services.[14][15][16] On the military side, Hamas launched numerous suicide bombings against Israelis, the first in April 1993.[17] Hamas ceased the attacks in 2005, and renounced them in April 2006.[18] In recent years Hamas has mainly attacked Israel with rocket and mortar fire.[19][20]
After Hamas's election victory, conflicts arose between Hamas and Fatah.[21][22] Following the June 2007 Battle of Gaza, Hamas retained control of Gaza and its officials were ousted from positions in the Palestinian National Authority government in the West Bank.[23][24] Israel then imposed an economic blockade on Gaza.[25] In June 2008, Hamas ceased rocket attacks on Israel following an Egyptian-brokered ceasefire, but attacks by other organizations continued despite Hamas efforts to prevent them.[26] Two months before the end of the six-month ceasefire the conflict escalated, after a November 4 Israeli incursion into Gaza killed seven Hamas militants, and this led to a renewal of Hamas rocket attacks.[26][27] In late December 2008, Israel attacked Gaza,[28] withdrawing its forces from the territory in mid-January 2009.[29] Despite ceasing military hostilities, Israel maintained a blockade of Gaza's border and airspace.

I'll even bold the last line for you.

Fired into Israel or fired at Israeli occupational settlements in Palestine? Would those be offensive or defensive?
If they were being shot into a area that in 1848 belonged to Gaza they are shooting at themselves.

 

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
8,583
60
48
United States
How long has it been since a rocket or some other terrorist attack against Israel from Gaza has occurred? 6 months to a year and I would agree with you it might be time for a change, or at least serious negotiations by both sides. Hamas has the power to do this.

if they were being shot into a area that in 1848 belonged to gaza they are shooting at themselves.


1848??
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
41,030
43
48
Red Deer AB
How long has it been since a rocket or some other terrorist attack against Israel from Gaza has occurred? 6 months to a year and I would agree with you it might be time for a change, or at least serious negotiations by both sides. Hamas has the power to do this.

1848??
Sorry my bad , 1948 .... before the map got changed.

They already took Israel to their own court system and they won. It was a hollow victory and it was never enforced. That is hardly encentive for them to begin to have faith that they are dealing with honest people.

There claim is more along these lines, rather than winning a military defeat. If they won in the ICC who would enforce the ruling.
What legitimacy does Israel have? > Palestine > Redress Information & Analysis

Even we are kind enough to allow the First Nations access to our courts, we just hardly ever let them win. Case in point, if they knew the mineral layouts back when defining the reservation would any of the borders be different today. As it is they should be as wealthy as Arabs, even more-so as they have no expensive overhead like vast Armies.

BTW you cannot push anybody into the sea if your back is to the sea.

They also have a Naval vessel registry, look it up, d'uh!
I hope we don't publish ours, or that might make it appear that there is nothing here.

This is all I have found so far. I was hoping to find the list that included the harbor boats that has the UN aircraft Carriers going on orange alert every time they leave the safety of a hidden bay.

Being as the article is a few years old it would need an update. Perhaps it will be Russia buying from Iran should off-the-shelf items prove effective right down to the hand held device that is supposed to be effective against choppers
'Iranian weapon ends Apache copters' air supremacy'
'Iranian weapon ends Apache copters' air supremacy'
Wed, 03 Feb 2010 01:28:18 GMT


This picture was used by the Fars news agency with their story about the weapon.


A senior Iranian military official says Iran has developed a special weapon that can bring down Apache helicopters.

Col. Nasser Arab-Beigi, the director of the self-sufficiency organization of the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC), told the Fars news agency on Tuesday that the “special weapon” can also target advanced tanks.

He noted that the new weapon will put an end to the battlefield supremacy of the United States' Apache helicopters.

“The enemy should not assume that if it attacks Iran, its Apache helicopters will perform as satisfactorily as they do in Iraq and Afghanistan,” Arab-Beigi stated.

He noted that the IRGC self-sufficiency organization has focused its research on the enemies' threats, adding that the organization closely studies the enemies' capabilities and singles out those that could be a threat to Iran.

Nasser-Beigi said that the organization then establishes research teams to develop the weapons necessary to fend off the threats.

MGH/HGL
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
53
48
Hamas took over Gaza by force. Gave Israel a one year extension of the truce (probably to solidify their position more) Refused to honor any past treaties or agreements between the Palestine goverment and Israel. The EU, U.S. and Israel cut off all aid to Hamas. The EU, U.S. and Israel also began arming Fatah. So we didn't cut off aid to Gaza, just the Hamas goverment,

Hamas had a majority democratic mandate to represent both the West Bank and Gaza:
...On January 25, 2006, elections were held for the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC), the legislature of the Palestinian National Authority (PNA). Notwithstanding the 2005 municipal elections and the January 9, 2005 presidential election, this was the first election to the PLC since 1996; subsequent elections had been repeatedly postponed due to the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Palestinian voters in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank including East Jerusalem were eligible to participate in the election.

Final results show that Hamas won the election, with 74 seats to the ruling-Fatah's 45, providing Hamas with the majority of the 132 available seats and the ability to form a majority government on their own....

Palestinian legislative election, 2006 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In response to the Hamas election win, the US and Israel armed Fatah and backed their violent attempt to seize control from Hamas. Fatah's coup was successful in the West Bank, but failed in Gaza.

The Gaza Bombshell

After failing to anticipate Hamas’s victory over Fatah in the 2006 Palestinian election, the White House cooked up yet another scandalously covert and self-defeating Middle East debacle: part Iran-contra, part Bay of Pigs. With confidential documents, corroborated by outraged former and current U.S. officials, the author reveals how President Bush, Condoleezza Rice, and Deputy National-Security Adviser Elliott Abrams backed an armed force under Fatah strongman Muhammad Dahlan, touching off a bloody civil war in Gaza and leaving Hamas stronger than ever...

The Gaza Bombshell | Politics | Vanity Fair
Hamas offers for longterm ceasefires have been repeatedly rejected by Israel:
Hamas touts 10-year ceasefire to break deadlock over Israel | World news | The Guardian