Whats your take on Unions?

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
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RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
lol ...:) ..I can accept that DB..Although I suppose we live in different words/worlds...1 word respect....Another lyric from one of my 1996 ,28 out of 30 hit song ...

UseLess - " Respect me for respecting you .." ...

Survival of the fittest or saftey in numbers ...Humans have evolved to be civilized .The rest are animals ..Some still should be respected, for they know no better ..Others deserve what they become /get...Beasts/Scary Monsters ..lol

peace and respect GF;-)
 

cdn_bc_ca

Electoral Member
May 5, 2005
389
1
18
Vancouver
I'd suggest seeking out a new place to work, if you're speaking from experience.

Sure, and then what? Somebody's going to take my place and work til 10pm. Boss still got what he wants. pretty soon, boss will eliminate full time jobs and implement part time only so that he doesn't have to pay benefits to part timers... oh wait... that's already happening.
 

countryboy

Traditionally Progressive
Nov 30, 2009
3,686
39
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BC
Sure, and then what? Somebody's going to take my place and work til 10pm. Boss still got what he wants. pretty soon, boss will eliminate full time jobs and implement part time only so that he doesn't have to pay benefits to part timers... oh wait... that's already happening.

Well, you might want to consider a career change. It sounds like you're very unhappy with your total work situation, and an unhappy employee is not a productive employee. An unproductive employee with be of no benefit to himelf or his company.

So, maybe it's your line of work that is causing you to be so negative. That happens, but it's never too late to consider a change that will allow you to come to a point where you can say, "I like my job. And my company." Wouldn't you feel a lot better then?
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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Sure, and then what? Somebody's going to take my place and work til 10pm. Boss still got what he wants. pretty soon, boss will eliminate full time jobs and implement part time only so that he doesn't have to pay benefits to part timers... oh wait... that's already happening.

Here in NS I think that 39 hours gets you no benefits and 40 makes you full time, fifeten years ago maybe, all Sobeys cashiers dropped below the forty hour a week mark. They're just going to keep turning in the screws just because they know they can because like we hear in this thread "unions are no good and everybody knows that". Career change is a good idea, become a union activists if you like truly rewarding work.
 

cdn_bc_ca

Electoral Member
May 5, 2005
389
1
18
Vancouver
Well, you might want to consider a career change. It sounds like you're very unhappy with your total work situation, and an unhappy employee is not a productive employee. An unproductive employee with be of no benefit to himelf or his company.

So, maybe it's your line of work that is causing you to be so negative. That happens, but it's never too late to consider a change that will allow you to come to a point where you can say, "I like my job. And my company." Wouldn't you feel a lot better then?

I'm confused. When did you get the impression that I was talking about myself? I was just talking hypothetically... about the widgets thing... about being efficient and getting it all done by 2pm... and what would happen after that... LOL.

It wasn't my intention to come across as negative because I'm not for unions nor am I against it. And I'm still happy at my job, for the time being.

Everything is peachy... no worries ;-)
 

countryboy

Traditionally Progressive
Nov 30, 2009
3,686
39
48
BC
I'm confused. When did you get the impression that I was talking about myself? I was just talking hypothetically... about the widgets thing... LOL.

It wasn't my intention to come across as negative because I'm not for unions nor am I against it. And I'm still happy at my job, for the time being.

Oops, obviously got the wrong impression there (I was reading post #102: "...Somebody's going to take my place and work til 10pm.") I stand corrected.

And I'm glad you're happy at your job! (Wish more people were...)
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
548
113
Vernon, B.C.
"Here in NS I think that 39 hours gets you no benefits and 40 makes you full time,"-
"Benefits" are something that have main evolved over the past 50 years or so and are being taken for granted today. Maybe that is wrong. It also just makes things too confusing. I would just like to see a wage where you can afford your own benefits. BEnefits are quite often a smoke screen. A lot of people work most of their life without taking advantage of many of the benefits, whereas the parasite and the drone will make sure they use them all.
 

TenPenny

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 9, 2004
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Location, Location
Yes, I think we should eliminate vacation pay, statutory holidays, sick days, and any sort of health/dental plans.

If your wife dies, well, too bad, you'll have to take time off without pay.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
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Vernon, B.C.
Yes, I think we should eliminate vacation pay, statutory holidays, sick days, and any sort of health/dental plans.

If your wife dies, well, too bad, you'll have to take time off without pay.

Yep, that might help a bit. Seriously though, it started out with pay being about work, should the boss really be expected to compensate people for every misfortune?
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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"Here in NS I think that 39 hours gets you no benefits and 40 makes you full time,"-
"Benefits" are something that have main evolved over the past 50 years or so and are being taken for granted today. Maybe that is wrong. It also just makes things too confusing. I would just like to see a wage where you can afford your own benefits. BEnefits are quite often a smoke screen. A lot of people work most of their life without taking advantage of many of the benefits, whereas the parasite and the drone will make sure they use them all.

So you want to go back to the good old days of the industrial revolution. Eventually that'll get the same cure as the previous times, your factory will be burned down the towns gentry strung up a mutinous military rampaging through the countryside and a bloody change in government policy, back to a time when capitalists were properly frightened by the working class. A government should fear its citizens and so should its upper class slobs. How good is that for productivity? Stupid management has wrecked more enterprise than all the unions there ever were did, and wasted more money than all the unions ever squeezed from them. Take your pick, do it smart or do it again. :smile:
 

Nuggler

kind and gentle
Feb 27, 2006
11,596
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Backwater, Ontario.
Hey Beave;

Only fools love the oppressor. There's karma for them, when the boss gets pissed and decides to fire "somebody".
Or the plant buggers off to China, because of "union pressure"........:roll:right.
But, ya can't change em. They're too frightened.

Dastardly how all these union types doing hard time because of billion dollar fraud, pyramid schemes, etc.....like Enron, etc. Yep, gotta protect us from them blue collar fraud guys.


 

Bar Sinister

Executive Branch Member
Jan 17, 2010
8,252
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Edmonton
If you want a proper perspective on this topic take a look at nations that have very few unions and compare them to nations that are highly unionized. Nations like Sweden and France come to mind, where the workers get all sorts of benefits including 30 hour work weeks and six weeks paid vacation. Compare that to the USA and Canada - two nations whose workers are considered to be the most overworked in the modern world. Compare it also to Australia where all workers get three bonus months off with pay if they stay with an employer for 10 years.
 

Dixie Cup

Senate Member
Sep 16, 2006
6,279
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Edmonton
It seems to me that there's something missing in this discussion, whether for or against unions. It's "reinvestment". Companies need to make a profit so that they can "reinvest" earnings to build on their business so it's not necessarily "greed" although there is that too. Labour is, usually, the most expensive item on their financial statement.

I have to run now, but I'll elaborate later.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
548
113
Vernon, B.C.
It seems to me that there's something missing in this discussion, whether for or against unions. It's "reinvestment". Companies need to make a profit so that they can "reinvest" earnings to build on their business so it's not necessarily "greed" although there is that too. Labour is, usually, the most expensive item on their financial statement.

I have to run now, but I'll elaborate later.

You've said quite a bit already, Dixie and so far you make sense. I'm not sure just how high a regard Unions have for shareholders, but if they are risking their money for less than 6 or 7%, they are going to be putting it elsewhere and good bye company, good bye Union.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
You've said quite a bit already, Dixie and so far you make sense. I'm not sure just how high a regard Unions have for shareholders, but if they are risking their money for less than 6 or 7%, they are going to be putting it elsewhere and good bye company, good bye Union.

This is where responsible government steps in and shuts the borders to capital flight. Now you know what "free trade" means=free capital. Now in the old days that capital stayed where it was earned, within reason according to regulation, use of national and regional markets had a price, use of the regional and national infrastructure (roads, education, police, work force) had a price, all that's virtually free to corporations now.
Now that the cookie jar is getting empty and the industrial base has been destroyed and any social direction totally gone, recovery will be impossible without the draconian jack boots phase. A union member is a shareholder JlM, labour is the superior form of capital, labour is the source of all wealth.
 

Dixie Cup

Senate Member
Sep 16, 2006
6,279
3,986
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Edmonton
Hi - I'm back.

Thanks JLM. I guess I'm lucky when it comes to jobs - even when my husband was transferred every 4 or 5 years, I'm the one that had to make the job changes" so, needless to say, I've had a "few." I have never had a bad work experience. My bosses and co-workers have always been nice - in fact, I've made life-long friends in the process. Did I always start at the salary I wanted? No but "local" economics played a big part in that. Moving from BC to Alberta to Manitoba to Ontario - I always started at "less" than I had previously earned, despite the fact that my skills were constantly improving. Having said that, I also never stayed at the "lower" wage range for long, once I proved myself. The companies I worked for were small to medium for the most part.

Two jobs I did have involved unions. One I was a member; the other I was not. Both experiences gave me "food" for thought about their (union) value. The first one I worked in an office which was not unionized but the "plant" was. In fact, I started working in the office during a strike, so yeah, I crossed picket lines. (I was single at this time) and needed to put a roof over my head and food on the table so to speak. Didn't know much about unions then anyway, but I digress.

The management made, I found out later, a reasonable offer which the union rejected, thus the strike. What the management knew, and obviously the union didn't, was that technology was just taking off and, eventually, would make their jobs redundant. What the company was trying to do was invest in this technology which would, eventually mean retraining their workers in the use of this technology and hopefully make the business more sustainable. It also offered new opportunities in branching out. The union didn't see it that way and went on strike for oh, about 6 months or so. To make a long story short, the union ended up settling for the original offer so lost 6 months of wages for nothing. While the company tried to diversify, it wasn't enough and, eventually shut down. Too little too late, I guess but I had already gone on to greener pastures.

My second experience involved actually belonging to the union. Shortly after I started a renegotiation of the current contract went well and we got our raises. However, the atmosphere at the work-site was unbelievable. There was more back-stabbing and bitching then I could handle and I lasted, amazingly, 9 months. I just couldn't take it. Lesson learned?? Money isn't everything!!

So far, unions 0 - 2 for me. I personally, would never work union, but hey, unions work for others so who am I to say?

I have now worked for my current employer for 7 years. I "accidently" came on the job in my last semester of college when I only had 2 classes and I figured I would help the "hubby" with some additional cash. I started part-time, thru a temp agency and, once I graduated, I was hired full time. I did get "a bit" of a raise but nothing to write home about. Since then, my salary has increased considerably.

This is the point I'm trying to make. My boss, a small businessman, employs 15 people (actually, as of tomorrow 16). He takes his business very seriously and pays everyone what he feels they are worth. Every year that I've gotten a raise he has called me into his office, told me what the raise was and why I was getting it. He also complements me on my work and tells me how much he appreciates what I do for the company. (note I said company) not for him. I would hope that, if I was screwing up, he'd tell me that too. It's called 'constructive criticism"

Obviously, my work also benefits him as well - he owns the bloody place. But here's the thing - he's always trying to think "outside" the box. He feels a big duty to his employees as he knows that they rely on him to keep the business going. No business, lots of people lose their jobs. So he's always trying to think of new ways to keep the business he has and increase it. He does that by re-investing into his company and his employees. If he didn't do that, he'd lose his business to the competition.

He has told me that, while some people complain about how he does things, he believes that if he doesn't try expanding and increasing his business, no one can expect raises or promotions. He wants his employees to be happy and productive. He encourages people to try different things - namely how others do their jobs. Some in our office don't like that concept, which he finds extremely frustrating. Obviously, they lack the security or confidence that maybe someone else can do it better or faster. That isn't what he's trying to do. If that person were to get sick for a period of time, or go on holidays, someone could step in and cover. There's nothing like going on holidays for a week or 2 and finding nothing done when you get back so you have to work your **s off to try and catch up. That's the union thinking, incidentally - protect your job.

In my experience, he is NOT the exception but the rule. He is just my "current" experience. Like others I have experienced before, he's simply a good "business man" who has not only his family but my family interests at heart.

Are there exceptions? I'm sure there are but it hasn't been my experience.

JMO
 
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