Islam – The enemy within itself-

[Cliffy]

Outlawing a religion is like trying to stop booze or prostitution won't happen here.

There is nothing like creating martyrs to swell the ranks of a religion. In the early days of christianity it was the Romans feeding christians to the lions that cause it to become such a dominant religion. It was like, "Hey people are dying for this belief so it must have validity" then they would jump up and down in front of soldiers and shout, "Pick me!"

Now, for some bizarre reason, some fanatical Muslims thin that, "Hey, that guy just blew himself up in a crouded market for Allah. This religion must have some validity. Pick me!"

I hope that sounded really silly because it makes no sense to me but somehow it makes sense to Christians and Muslims.

 

[JBG]

Christianity has its own wingnuts, too...... John Hagee, Pat Robertson, etc. sound familiar?

But John Hagee, Pat Robertson and Jim Bakker have never arranged to have planes crash into buildings. And more importantly those people are shunned by mainstream Christians the same way the Jews isolate the Jewish Defense League.

The Muslims at best ignore the issue. Also the Muslim community shelters the bad apples rather than turn them over to authorities.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

But John Hagee, Pat Robertson and Jim Bakker have never arranged to have planes crash into buildings.

Quite right, JBG. But in the past Christians have done much worse things than flying planes into the buildings.

And more importantly those people are shunned by mainstream Christians the same way the Jews isolate the Jewish Defense League.

They may be shunned by the mainstream Christians, but people such as Robertson, Dr. Dobson (Focus on the Family) etc. carry a lot of power in USA, especially within the Republican Party. Religious right is a strong element of political discourse in USA.

The Muslims at best ignore the issue. Also the Muslim community shelters the bad apples rather than turn them over to authorities.

What Muslims need is Reformation, similar to what Christians had a few hundred years ago.

 

[Sparrow]

Where I don't agree is when a minority can oblige the majority to comply with their beliefs.

Glad to give you an example. In Montreal there is a college where students have to go to class on Sunday because the minority Muslim students cannot write their exam on Friday because it is contrary to their religion. Here we are still majority christian and our school week is Monday thru Friday. This is only one example.

 

[Goober]

Glad to give you an example. In Montreal there is a college where students have to go to class on Sunday because the minority Muslim students cannot write their exam on Friday because it is contrary to their religion. Here we are still majority christian and our school week is Monday thru Friday. This is only one example.

Sparrow

So why did they pick Sunday – which school are you referring to – claims are easily made – As far as I know Thursday would have been an excellent option – and you still did not answer my question.

 

[Machjo]

Hossam

I have worked with many Muslims for the past 9 years – The vast majority I have found to be honest and very personable – good character – but many new comers to Canada have some difficulty in understanding the separation of church and state – that said a friend on mine – from Somalia – in Canada for quite some time informed me that he had found more racist behavior from other ethnic groups but very little from Canadians that had been here for multi generation – meaning white –Anglos – surprised me a little –

Me I am content within my religion and I try to follow the big 10 as I call them
Lastly – welcome to the forum – I hope you enjoy it.

It shouldn't be too surprising. The majority group can easily put on a smile in public but show their true colours secretly at the ballot box. Minority racists, on the other hand, have no choice but to show their fangs and true colours more publicly. I've been burned byanti-white racism in Canada, and I'm white. This was due to mixed family.

In the end, you have bad people on all sides, and good people on all sides, and they each express their good or bad in different ways depending on the cultural context.

 

[Machjo]

I didnt even read the thread, but the real threat is the american government telling us that we should be scared of muslims..

We should certainly not fear Islam. In its pure form, it's a beautiful religion. And we shouldn't fear Muslims as such either. What we might fear though is ignorance among Muslims of their own religion, and religious prejudice. This, or course, is not unique to any particular religion.

 

[Downhome_Woman]

As to the original post. There is no way the Islam will ever develop the way Christianity has. What you see in the Taliban, in Wahabee, in the Ayatollahs, IS the real Islam, undiluted with Western 'contamination'. The Koran offers no ambiguity, or a place for reason, conscience to inform faith. Islam is about unquestioning Submission. It in this way the opposite of the Christian process of conversion. There is no ambiguity, no revelation in Islam. There is only the Law, and vengeance, amputations, beheadings, stonings, lashings.. page after page of it in their Holy Book.

Strange as it sounds, I'm going to defend Islam - at least, in the context of this particular post. Are you judging the 'real' Islam by the doings of those within the past 50 years? Then maybe you should delve a bit further. Islam in its nascent stages was pretty basic. Do good to those that do good to you, hurt those that hurt you. sounds similar to any other faith, from my eyes. for the record, Mohammed took counsel from his wives - he worked for his first wife, and she supported him on his 'quest', and from what I read, he never tried to make her step to the back when he gained power. sounds like he had more respect for his women than the later followers chose to interpret.

Look - I don't like the religion - or any organized religion for that matter, but if you're going to criticize, you might want to do some more research. It's rare that these things are a simple black or white. also, I might suggest the reading s of such scholars as Fatima Mernissi, Wafa Sultan and Taslima Nasrin - as well as Canada's own Irshad Manji. Some are Feminists, some are Islamic scholars (who could run rings around the Taliban Bubbas) - but they all bring an insight into Islam that we as North Americans don't see often. (Islamic countries don't either, for that matter!)

 

[Downhome_Woman]

The problem is not with the various groups that come to this country, its the people who live here and want to water down the holidays and celebrations we have now in order to make other feel welcome. For instance, we call Christmas the holidays so as to not offend anyone. Muslims wonder why for example, the number two person in their belief system is in fact Christ. The Sheike community
doesn't have a problem with community calling Christmas, Christmas neither do the
Jewish folks and so on. Now I go to church for weddings and funerals otherwise
never there, and I wonder why so many people feel they have to tell someone how
to live. The problem I see with the Muslim faith is that they don't have a central
leadership of strength therefore there are as many factions as there are people at
times. Those who advocate violence should not be allowed into this country or be
allowed to stay here under any circumstances. The Muslim faith has not progressed in centuries and leads to more of a religion based on customs and
traditions than the teachings they started out with, and that becomes a problem
in a modern world

When I decided that I was not a Christian I did it because I thought long and hard on what a Christian was supposed to be and I saw that I wasn't it. I didn't take my choice lightly. i also come from a mixed heritage - i have the usual Christian bits (Catholic and a variety of Protestant denominations), as well as Muslim and Jewish in my background.
Seeing how I left the faith that i had been brought up in with such conviction, i would be hard pressed to wish someone that I didn't know a 'Merry Christmas' or a 'Happy Easter' just because it was that season. Especially since the Christian Holy Days fall into the same time frame as the Holy Days of many other faiths.

No one can force me to say - or not say 'Happy Christmas'. But logic and sense tells me that I am not going to wish something for something that they don't believe in. to do so would make the greeting less sincere. and I'm SO tired of insincere greetings in stores, aren't you? I'd much rather some sales associate wish me a happy holiday (knowing that the holidays all seem to cluster within the same time frames), than have one offer me a hollow 'Happy Christmas', because that was the generically accepted holiday greeting.
I don't give a rat's patoot if Christians were the first Europeans here. Big deal. It took a lot of diverse peoples to make this country and they all pay taxes. Legally (well except in Federal institutions, because EVERYONE - whatever ethnicity - pays taxes), no one can force us to wish anything - it all has to do with the economic demographic. If you live in a large Orthodox Jewish area? Wish them Happy Hannukkah, If you live amongst the Sikhs and Hindus, wish them a Good Diwali. If you live amongst Christians? Happy Christmas? Come on - it's not that complicated, and as far as that' we were here first' garbage? Shame on you. It took everyone - AND the First Nations that you seem to forget, to build this country.

 

[Cliffy]

Happy Fall Equinox (next Monday, Sept. 21/09.) Tis the season to pick mushrooms, hunt and preserve the harvest. I find these practical reasons to celebrate. No need for beliefs in the supernatural or religious hierarchies and tything.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Glad to give you an example. In Montreal there is a college where students have to go to class on Sunday because the minority Muslim students cannot write their exam on Friday because it is contrary to their religion. Here we are still majority christian and our school week is Monday thru Friday. This is only one example.

Sparrow, that doesn’t make sense. Are you saying that they forced everybody to attend college on Sunday?

Do you have a link to this? I would be very surprised if they changed the schedule for everybody in order to accommodate a small minority. Anyway, please put up a link.

 

[YukonJack]

Islam - Ememy Within.

What a delicious idea!!

Let one wing of Islam kill the other!! Hopefully, it will be MUTUAL destruction.

 

[petros]

Happy Fall Equinox (next Monday, Sept. 21/09.) Tis the season to pick mushrooms, hunt and preserve the harvest. I find these practical reasons to celebrate. No need for beliefs in the supernatural or religious hierarchies and tything.

Not even thanks to Gilgamesh for slaying Humbubba the forest beast?

 

[petros]

Islam - Ememy Within.

What a delicious idea!!

Let one wing of Islam kill the other!! Hopefully, it will be MUTUAL destruction.

And hopefully at the same time the evangelicals get taken up in the rapture and I can have some peace and quiet for once.

 

[Goober]

Not even thanks to Gilgamesh for slaying Humbubba the forest beast?

Have you read it -If yes - what did you think? I started then a project came up and had to set it aside - Seems I have a lot of books setting in the corner to read when I have time - Big projects are nearly complete. It is near the top of my list to read

 

[Downhome_Woman]

Islam - Ememy Within.

What a delicious idea!!

Let one wing of Islam kill the other!! Hopefully, it will be MUTUAL destruction.

Wow - I seem to remember your being a 'Christian'. you really shouldn't exhibit such glee in the desired passing of those you dislike. Oh yes - forgot that the fig tree was cursed for a trivial reason.
sorry YJ - look to your own. The Catholic Church was every bit as violent as the extreme Islamic sects are now. Are you ready to atone for the forced conversions, the torture, the stealing of children that they did up unto the late 1800's? and we won't even mention pogroms or that nasty Easter seasonally used acronym HEP.

And for the record, I was brought up Anglican and a lot of human damage was done under that faith as well. For you to say 'what a delicious ideal'? that's just so unpalatable. I'm no fan of Islam, but Islam has not done anything that hasn't been done in the past - their flaw is that they reside in the present and we can focus on them and 'neglect' to remember what those who went before (ALL of) us went.
We all suck, when it comes to the compassion and understanding garbage. funny thing is, all those religious leaders that we 'follow' would probably be appalled if they were confronted by those who follow what they think are the original teachings of their prophets.

 

[YukonJack]

petros and Downhome_Woman,

can either of you say that if you had to face and live with the survival of one religion and the destruction of the other other, you would prefer Islam, over Christianity, to survive?

Honestly?

 

[Spade]

petros and Downhome_Woman,

can either of you say that if you had to face and live with the survival of one religion and the destruction of the other other, you would prefer Islam, over Christianity, to survive?

Honestly?

Honestly, neither.
What's wrong with the old gods? Woden'sday child is full of whoa!

 

[Lou Garu]

petros and Downhome_Woman,

can either of you say that if you had to face and live with the survival of one religion and the destruction of the other other, you would prefer Islam, over Christianity, to survive?

Honestly?

Are we discussing the interpretations and actions of Fundamentalists? or of those of the majority ?

You will note, I trust , that I don't specify either religion . Fundamentalists are the ones making the news, the majorities just want to live their lives in peace,not much different (or funnier ) than the good ol' boys I grew up with in Canada.I don't see the need for a "either/or" argument (since we are stuck with "religion" ).

 

[Lou Garu]

Honestly, neither.
What's wrong with the old gods? Woden'sday child is full of whoa!

NAAAAA , animism is WAY better , don't need a new one...........:lol: