More than 1,000,000 people have died result of the US led Iraq invasion!

[EagleSmack]

OBR polled a small amount of people and simply asked the question...

How many in your family have been killed?

Without verifying they multiplied that number by the population of Iraq.

Hardly scientific but you liked the numbers.

IBC VERIFIES each death. Not an estimate at all. You don't like those numbers because you want more dead Iraqis to prove your point.

 

[ironsides]

ORB's business is surveys. Did you think their name meant their number is based on Iraqi opinions regarding the total people who have died in Iraq. What are you smoking? :roll:

Here's are older peer reviewed estimate of the total which is in line with ORB's more recent numbers:


If 98,000 Iraqis had died after 17 months of war and 601,027 died after 41 months of war, then 1,000,000 deaths after 52 months of war is a credible number.

If you think IBC's numbers are a total, then you don't understand what they are measuring. IBC counts verifiable civilian deaths only. They don't count belligerent deaths or probable civilian deaths. Even IBC states they do not know the total number of civilian deaths and that:



I interpret their statement as they are certain the total number of Iraqi civilian deaths is higher. How do you interpret that statement?



IS, If I understand your meaning, you'd wish the US slaughtered every Iraqi and then just apologize afterward.

The only way someone could have such an opinion would be if they don't consider Iraqis to be fellow human beings. When I look at these images, I see dead people. What do you see?

WARNING! GRAPHIC IMAGES OF THE IRAQ WAR
Iraq War Casualty Pictures

Killing people without justification is murder IMHO. Lets review US justifications and perceptions regarding this war:

1) Iraq threatened the US and its neighbors with WMDs .


2) Iraq was linked to the events of 9/11.


3) Iraq was a humanitarian crisis.


4) The Iraq war was legal


5) The Iraq war had nothing to do with Iraq's oil
Blood and oil: How the West will profit from Iraq's most precious commodity
Future of Iraq: The Spoils of War

If US leaders hadn't illegally invaded Iraq for personal profit, there's a good chance the war in Afghanistan would be over, OBL and his cadre would have been aprehended and the US would not have had an economic meltdown. Today, not only are Iraqis worse off, so are Americans. Not only is the world not safer from terrorism, but as a result of this war, terrorist organizations have a far easier time recruiting angry people who are hostile toward the West generally and the US specifically.

I'd like to see the people responsible held accountable for their crimes, but only the American people can make that happen and that won't happen while they remain ignorant.

Lets say I accept your argument, and lets assume for arguments sake that Jr, Bush invaded Iraq because Saddam attempted to assassinate Daddy Bush. Being that everything is winding down now, why are you still protesting. It is or will be over very soon, and nothing you or I do will hasten its demise. Possibly only cause more deaths with our interference. The only ignorant people here are those who cannot see. When were out, it will be over. No repercussions, just over.

 

[darkbeaver]

Everything isn't winding down now in Iraq everything is winding down in America. No repercussions? You must be one of the ignorant, your best allies the State of Israel has cut your throat already. America will become a waste land filled with concentration camps and shallow graveyards. The most obvious repercussion is state bankruptcy and debt beyond measure.

 

[petros]

Everything isn't winding down now in Iraq everything is winding down in America. No repercussions? You must be one of the ignorant, your best allies the State of Israel has cut your throat already. America will become a waste land filled with concentration camps and shallow graveyards. The most obvious repercussion is state bankruptcy and debt beyond measure.

Baghdad is just the training ground for domestic modern urban guerilla warfare.

 

[ironsides]

Everything isn't winding down now in Iraq everything is winding down in America. No repercussions? You must be one of the ignorant, your best allies the State of Israel has cut your throat already. America will become a waste land filled with concentration camps and shallow graveyards. The most obvious repercussion is state bankruptcy and debt beyond measure.

Is for us.
Bombs targeting Shiites in Iraq kill at least 48
The attacks provided a grim example of U.S. military warnings that insurgents are targeting Shiites in an effort to re-ignite the kind of sectarian violence that nearly tore the country apart in 2006 and 2007.
Bombs targeting Shiites in Iraq kill at least 48 - Yahoo! News


Guess what, we won't be there, are you going to step up and stop the violence, don't think so.

 

[Cliffy]

Yup, ya go in there, stir up a hornets nest, and walk away, washing your hands of all responsibility. Y'all went in there to steal the oil. It ain't all gone yet. Leaving is just a bunch of propaganda. Ya will be there until the corporations say ya can leave.

 

[ironsides]

And your point is??

 

[Goober]

OBR polled a small amount of people and simply asked the question...

How many in your family have been killed?

Without verifying they multiplied that number by the population of Iraq.

Hardly scientific but you liked the numbers.

IBC VERIFIES each death. Not an estimate at all. You don't like those numbers because you want more dead Iraqis to prove your point.

EagleSmack

50 million dead from banning DDT - more people that in WW2 - Though less than the 70 Mil attributed to Mao -
From banning a chemical that used properly in the 3rd world could have prevented millions of deaths from malaria

 

[earth_as_one]

Lets say I accept your argument, and lets assume for arguments sake that Jr, Bush invaded Iraq because Saddam attempted to assassinate Daddy Bush. Being that everything is winding down now, why are you still protesting. It is or will be over very soon, and nothing you or I do will hasten its demise. Possibly only cause more deaths with our interference. The only ignorant people here are those who cannot see. When were out, it will be over. No repercussions, just over.

I never claimed this war was about personal revenge for GWB. That element might have been there, but the primary motivation was greed. A few powerful people made a lot of money at the expense of the American and Iraqi people.

I'm not a subscriber to conspiracy theories regarding 9/11. But I have no doubt that war hawks used 9/11 hysteria and fear to further their Iraq regime change agenda.

...social critics such as commentator Manuel Valenzuela and journalist Mark Danner,[38][39][40] investigative journalist John Pilger, in The New Statesman,[41] and former editor of The San Francisco Chronicle Bernard Weiner, in CounterPunch,[42] all argue that PNAC members used the events as the "Pearl Harbor" that they needed––that is, as an "opportunity" to "capitalize on" (in Pilger's words), in order to enact long-desired plans.[43]

"When the Towers came down," William Rivers Pitt writes in his editorial in Truthout.org, "these men saw, at long last, their chance to turn their White Papers into substantive policy."[32]

Project for the New American Century - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Above references this 2000 report:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

These people manipulated the American people into supporting an unprovoked war. It was obvious to many people at the time and its even more obvious now in hindsight.

People who start unprovoked wars which kill hundreds of thousands of people are guilty of war crimes and mass murder. I'm arguing in favor of Americans knowing the scale of the carnage. I believe Americans in general are moral and just. If they understood what happened, I'm sure most would like to bring the people responsible to justice.

 

[earth_as_one]

EagleSmack

50 million dead from banning DDT - more people that in WW2 - Though less than the 70 Mil attributed to Mao -
From banning a chemical that used properly in the 3rd world could have prevented millions of deaths from malaria

Are you trying to minimize the unnecessary violent deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people?

 

[ironsides]

I never claimed this war was about personal revenge for GWB. That element might have been there, but the primary motivation was greed. A few powerful people made a lot of money at the expense of the American and Iraqi people.

I'm not a subscriber to conspiracy theories regarding 9/11. But I have no doubt that war hawks used 9/11 hysteria and fear to further their Iraq regime change agenda.



Above references this 2000 report:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

These people manipulated the American people into supporting an unprovoked war. It was obvious to many people at the time and its even more obvious now in hindsight.

People who start unprovoked wars which kill hundreds of thousands of people are guilty of war crimes and mass murder. I'm arguing in favor of Americans knowing the scale of the carnage. I believe Americans in general are moral and just. If they understood what happened, I'm sure most would like to bring the people responsible to justice.

I agree with you, greedy people have always made money during a war. Iraq was no different. It is just that I cannot condemn those who fought or supported it., (not those who made excessive profits.)

As for 9/11 it happened and those responsible fled to Afghanistan/Pakistan and we began hunting them down. Even when this is over there will be people hunting them for years to come if need be, they will find no place safe.

As for bringing anyone to justice, that may be attempted, but no one person is will be found guilty for it all. Everything will just fade away as it did with the Nixon era.

I only used personal revenge to get away from the multitude of reasons, made it simple.

 

[Goober]

Are you trying to minimize the unnecessary violent deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people?

No

Are you trying to troll?

 

[JLM]

Very few people seem to know how many deaths have been attributed as a direct and indirect consequence of the US decision to invade Iraq since March 2003.

Iraq Body Count gives this number:

92,393 – 100,868
June 2, 2009
Iraq Body Count

But IBC only counts civilian deaths reported by multiple news sources. They do not count the estimated 30,000 dead Iraqi soldiers killed during the initial invasion.
DefenseLink News Transcript: Secretary of Defense Interview with Bob Woodward - 23 Oct, 2003

IBC does not count violent deaths that did not make the news.

IBC does not count hundreds of thousands of violent deaths resulting from increased crime and religious strife.

In other words, IBC's numbers do not accurately reflect the true impact of the Iraq war on the Iraqi people. Even IBC makes these statements:



Wikipedia has a pretty good article on this subject with links to studies and surveys.

Casualties of the Iraq War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The August 2007 Opinion Research Business survey resulted in a statistical mean of 1,033,000 increased violent deaths directly or indirectly related to the US led invasion. Lots of people have died violently in Iraq since 2007. As a result this is a credible statement:

More than 1,000,000 people have died result of the US led Iraq invasion!

In addition to the deaths, over 4.7 million Iraqis (out of 30 million total) have been displaced since the US-led invasion of Iraq in 2003.
Refugees of Iraq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The original US justifications for this war were:

1) Iraq's non-existant WMDs. (Note: This is the same justification the US used to maintain economic sanctions on Iraq which killed hundreds of thousands of additional Iraqi's through malnutrition and disease during the previous 12 years before the 2003 invasion.)

2) Iraq's non-existent involvement in the events of 9/11

Since the invasion the above justifications have been thoroughly discredited. Americans have since tried to justify this war based on humanitarian grounds. Considering the resulting death and destruction described above, that justification also rings hollow. In fact David Roth of Human Rights Watch made this statement:



I can't see how anyone aware of the above facts could describe what the US has done in Iraq without using words like "War Crime" and "Crimes Against Humanity".

In 2004, Americans had an opportunity to express democratically their opinion regarding this war. They re-elected the people responsible.

And how many of them have died as a result of Saddam being an assh*le?

 

[Goober]

And how many of them have died as a result of Saddam being an assh*le?

JLM

Iraq- Iran War - over 1 million dead - as to how many more Saddam was responsible for one news report had Abu Ghraib as dispatching - read as torture & execution - 4 thousand a month.

 

[ironsides]

Comment: There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein was a ruthless killer and that his regime was dictatorial, murderous and repugnant. Up to 450,000 Iraqi and 730,000 Iranian combatants died during the Iran-Iraq War. An estimated 1,000 Kuwaiti nationals were killed following the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. As many as 200,000 Iraqis died in the ensuing Gulf War. Approximately 500,000 Iraqi children died because of international trade sanctions introduced after the war.
Between 60,000 and 150,000 Iraqi dissidents and Shia Muslims are estimated to have been killed during Saddam's reign. Over 100,000 Kurds were killed or "disappeared". (Mass graves discovered following the US occupation of Iraq in 2003 suggest that the total combined figure for Kurds, Shias and dissidents killed could be as high as 300,000). Amnesty International estimates that at the time of Saddam's downfall in April 2003 there were about 300,000 Iraqi refugees around the world, with over 200,000 residing in Iran. Other sources claim between three and four million Iraqis, or about 15% of the population, fled the country seeking refuge.
An obituary published in The Guardian compares Saddam to the Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin.
"Stalin was his exemplar," the obituary says. "The likeness came from more than conscious emulation: he already resembled him in origin, temperament and method. Like him, he was unique less in kind than in degree, in the extraordinary extent to which, if the more squalid forms of human villainy are the sine qua non of the successful tyrant, he embodied them. Like Stalin, too, he had little of the flair or colour of other 20th Century despots, little mental brilliance, less charisma, no redeeming passion or messianic fervour; he was only exceptional in the magnitude of his thuggery, the brutality, opportunism and cunning of the otherwise dull, grey apparatchik."
While all this is true the circumstances behind Saddam's rise to power are not black and white. The continuing relevance of events deep in Iraq's history; the complexity of the ethnic and regional setting; political meddling in Iraq and throughout the Middle East by foreign powers, including Britain, France, the Soviet Union and the US; all these factors combined to create and sustain the monster that Saddam became.

http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/hussein.html

 

[earth_as_one]

And how many of them have died as a result of Saddam being an assh*le?

Between 2000 and the March 2003 invasion, the US blamed Saddam Hussein for 275 deaths. All of these deaths were people convicted of capital crimes by Iraq's criminal justice system. I disagree with the death penalty.

Read this and pay attention to dates!
White House Issues New Report on Saddam's Record of Repression

BTW, I not defending Hussein's cruel dictatorship, just putting it in perspective.

I was against Hussein's regime when the worst atrocities occurred, when they were allied with the US and our news was keeping the average person ignorant. Most of the deaths atributed to Hussein related to the economic sanctions were in fact the fault of the US, not Hussein. The sanctions were supposed to be lifted when Iraq no longer possessed a WMDs. UN weapon inspectors knew in 1998 that Iraq no longer posed a credible WMD threat. But the US and UK kept the sanctions in place anyway and infiltrated UN Weapon Inspection teams with spies who collected intel on Iraq's legal defense systems.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/301168.stm

Which is why Iraq stopped cooperating with UNSCOM.

The BIG LIE
http://www.medialens.org/alerts/02/021028_Big_Lie1.HTM

I'll bet you have an impression or should I say misperception that a humanitarian crisis was ongoing in Iraq in 2002/2003. Your perceptions were manipulated! During the run-up to the 2003 invasion, we were subjected to a lot of pro-war propaganda.

 

[earth_as_one]

Comment: There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein was a ruthless killer and that his regime was dictatorial, murderous and repugnant. Up to 450,000 Iraqi and 730,000 Iranian combatants died during the Iran-Iraq War. An estimated 1,000 Kuwaiti nationals were killed following the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. As many as 200,000 Iraqis died in the ensuing Gulf War. Approximately 500,000 Iraqi children died because of international trade sanctions introduced after the war.
Between 60,000 and 150,000 Iraqi dissidents and Shia Muslims are estimated to have been killed during Saddam's reign. Over 100,000 Kurds were killed or "disappeared". (Mass graves discovered following the US occupation of Iraq in 2003 suggest that the total combined figure for Kurds, Shias and dissidents killed could be as high as 300,000). Amnesty International estimates that at the time of Saddam's downfall in April 2003 there were about 300,000 Iraqi refugees around the world, with over 200,000 residing in Iran. Other sources claim between three and four million Iraqis, or about 15% of the population, fled the country seeking refuge.
An obituary published in The Guardian compares Saddam to the Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin.
"Stalin was his exemplar," the obituary says. "The likeness came from more than conscious emulation: he already resembled him in origin, temperament and method. Like him, he was unique less in kind than in degree, in the extraordinary extent to which, if the more squalid forms of human villainy are the sine qua non of the successful tyrant, he embodied them. Like Stalin, too, he had little of the flair or colour of other 20th Century despots, little mental brilliance, less charisma, no redeeming passion or messianic fervour; he was only exceptional in the magnitude of his thuggery, the brutality, opportunism and cunning of the otherwise dull, grey apparatchik."
While all this is true the circumstances behind Saddam's rise to power are not black and white. The continuing relevance of events deep in Iraq's history; the complexity of the ethnic and regional setting; political meddling in Iraq and throughout the Middle East by foreign powers, including Britain, France, the Soviet Union and the US; all these factors combined to create and sustain the monster that Saddam became.

http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/hussein.html

Are these verifiable minimums like IBC's numbers or estimates? Judging from the round numbers I'd say either Hussein had a thing for killing people in even numbers or they are unverified estimates.

Assuming they are estimates, then what is their accuracy. Are they statistical means with a range and accuracy?

If ORB's number's aren't good enough for you, then why do you accept these numbers without the same level of skepticism?

BTW, I accept the above numbers as approximate estimates. Judging the relative subjectiveness of the sources (people with a war agenda), it's likely they are skewed toward the high side.

I've been reading Amnesty International Annual Reports since the early 1990's.They also made similar estimates, although some of the above references events from the 1980's.

RE: Iraq Refugees
Since the 2003 invasion, 2.2 million Iraqis have fled Iraq
Refugees of Iraq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I agree there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein was a ruthless killer. But the number of deaths attributed to Hussein during his 23 year regime are about the same as those attributed to George W. Bush from 2003-2008.(5 years). The US still has another 18 years of killing Iraqis before the comparisons are valid. How about this, take the total number of deaths attributed to both of these men and divide by the number of years they killed Iraqis to find the rate each killed Iraqis. The rate GWB killed Iraqis is much much higher than the rate Hussein killed Iraqis.

Regarding chemical weapons used against civilians:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus_use_in_Iraq

1) Where is your outrage regarding GWB?

2) Who did you vote for in 2004?

Personally I don't see that much difference between Hussein and Bush. Both are responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths and both institutionalized torture and murder. Both initiated clandestine programs to spy on their own citizens and assassinate people.

 

[earth_as_one]

bump!

 

[selin]

Does someone who justifies that if the numbers of people killed by invasion are less than the real numbers , it won't be considered as massacre feel good,or humanist? even only one person who is innocent doesn't deserve to be killed by America for the disgusting profits ... i am shocked by your comments!

 

[Cliffy]

Does someone who justifies that if the numbers of people killed by invasion are less than the real numbers , it won't be considered as massacre feel good,or humanist? even only one person who is innocent doesn't deserve to be killed by America for the disgusting profits ... i am shocked by your comments!

But according to Americans, America can do no wrong. God is on their side, so says their religious and political leaders. It must be nice to sleep well at night knowing their god approves of their mindless slaughter of innocent women and children. (sarcasm alert)!