Considering that the CVonservatives were a minority government, did they not foresee that they were vulnerable to this crisis? Certainly a Conservative-Liberal co-alition would have been prefereble to the one we'll have now?
This mes the Conservatives' fault?
- Thread starter Machjo
- Start date
It would have been preferable to someone who will compromise. That wouldn't be Harper....
Well, then a party that can't compromise doesn't deserve to run a minority government.
I don't think so.
I think the NDP/BQ hatched this awhile ago, and just waited for the right opportunity to haul the Liberals on board.
It would have happened anyway......but I am surprized at Harper's great miscalculation.......the threat to end party subsidies......it was incompetent in a minority situation.....he should have known better.
I wonder......do you think he was trying to force a non-confidence vote, so as to try again for a majority?????
Could be.
Now THAT would make it all his fault.
I think the NDP/BQ hatched this awhile ago, and just waited for the right opportunity to haul the Liberals on board.
It would have happened anyway......but I am surprized at Harper's great miscalculation.......the threat to end party subsidies......it was incompetent in a minority situation.....he should have known better.
I wonder......do you think he was trying to force a non-confidence vote, so as to try again for a majority?????
Could be.
Now THAT would make it all his fault.
Machjo I think the status quo could have done very well.. Personally I don't see why with a stronger mandate Harper had to stir with not one but all opposition parties..
Had he focused on the economy and done his job he could very well had run Government without issues.. What happaned really made no sense and now we face a possible election for political posturing.
I don't know. All I know is that, if I were leading a minority government, even if just one seat short, my first priority would have been to try to get enough independents or another party on board to form a majority. It's just not possible to survive as a minority. If you're a minority, your first objective ought to be to try to form a majority through co-alition if need be.
Had Harper done that, his co-alition would have been untouchable. Now it appears the other parties were more competent that the CP to form that majority. Harper loses... and so do we to some extent. My God, I can't believe I'm now starting to support the CP!
Normally I support the left owing to my favouring more government spending on education and trades and professional training. Aside from that, I'm fiscally conservative all the way. So when a lef-leaning party proposes increased spending on everything but no mention of education, then I might as well just vote Conservative. I'ver never voted Conservative before, but we'll see come next election. We're living in interesting times.
Colby, I have to disagree on that.. CTV is right on this article that the Liberals have the most to lose from this coalition so why join it if there is nothing to gain. The stake are extremely high and realistically they are the most exposed..
CTV.ca | Democracy in action or bloodless coup?
Cheers
Yeah, me too, that's by far the biggest surprise and disappointment to me in all of this. I really wanted to think better of Harper than this shows. Apparently he has the instincts of a fascist, he wants to destroy the opposition parties and run an authoritarian state by himself, without opposition. I haven't been particularly impressed by the opposition parties either though. The government backed down on the things that really pissed them off, they should have backed down too, and let the government bring in its budget in January, and defeated it on a confidence motion then, if that's what they want to do. That would have been much more in line with our constitutional traditions. There's been a lamentable lack of statesmanship all around.
I think the opposition had been pushed to the brink once too often and were tired of backing down. They saw an opportunity to bring the present government to it's knees and went for it. Harper ruled with impunity during his last term. He was mistaken by thinking he could carry on with the status quo this time around.
Why is it that the opposition is being made out to be the bad guys here when Harper himself tried to get the NDP and the Bloc to do the same thing to Paul Martin and the Liberals a few years ago? Harper should be replaced and the Tories
should fall on their sword to keep their hope alive. The real contest is yet to come when the GG issues her ruling as to whether there will be an election, and I think this time there will not be, the opposition has the power and alliance to hold for a
specific period of time. Harper should not be the PM, period, he overstepped his
bounds and his actions were really dumb for a minority government
should fall on their sword to keep their hope alive. The real contest is yet to come when the GG issues her ruling as to whether there will be an election, and I think this time there will not be, the opposition has the power and alliance to hold for a
specific period of time. Harper should not be the PM, period, he overstepped his
bounds and his actions were really dumb for a minority government
I think it would be a tad more correct to say that Harper talked about a coalition. He didn't actually do it. What these other parties are saying to you is that your vote - your right to vote means/meant nothing whatsover to them. They are telling us that their opinion matters more than ours. A handful of people are un-democratically speaking to us and cancelling out every vote for every party in the last election. They want the power and they are determined to get it no matter how much money is lost. What kind of garbage is being thrown at us when they plan to set up a government with a man who they were already looking to replace before election night was over. This man - Dion - already has been told that he will be expected to step down in May 09. If the Coalition passes, he will be the Prime Minister of Canada and be so effective that he is already in a position of being forced to step down. What if he changes his mind? Can they force him to step down? I don't think they can. Just because the Liberals and the NDP say they will agree with each other and support each other doesn't mean they will or that that agreement will last more than a few weeks at best. If any of you think this country is in a mess now - just wait for the other shoe to drop. If the govenor general allows this to happen she will throw this country into deep despair.
Sir Francis - I don't agree. The Liberal Party is a crazy mixed up party right now and siding with the likes of Layton prove that. Regardless of all that, the NDP will never overtake the Liberals as being the stronger of the two and Layton is so dis-liked that no one is ever going to get used to him being a leader. In my view, Jack Layton is a bully - not a leader. It is my belief that should this farce go through, it will be the end of the NDP, not the end of the Liberals.
Writing a letter to the Governor General and expressing your interest in forming a government after a confidence vote is more than just talking about it...
The members of the coalition are all elected members of Parliament...they have been put in the position they are in by Canadian voters...
As I have stated before, we never elected any government we've had...we've elected a Parliament, and the government is formed from within that Parliament...most often it is the party with the majority of members that forms the government, but nothing in our Constitution says that this must be the case, and if the other members of Parliament defeat the party in power, then that is Parliamentary democracy in action...this is the system of government we've always had, nothing has changed...
Show me in our Constitution where it says that what's happening is undemocratic.
If you can't then I have to call bull**** and ask you politely to stop your frickin' whining...
Get your facts straight...Dion offered to step down after the election...no one forced his hand...
This coalition is far more likely to be able to work together and get things done than the Harper government who wasn't willing to work with anyone...and this is really what it's all about...Harper tried to govern like he had a majority government, the rest of Parliament are now stating in no uncertain terms that it was wrong of him to do so...
Maybe- I think this debacle caught old Stevie boy by surprise BUT he survived well for two years with about 12% less support than he just rec'd in October, so I guess that is understandable. IMHO, neither Layton or Dion can be trusted. if Dion becomes P.M. does anyone REALLY think he's going to step down as leader? :?:
I think we have to agree to disagree on this one. Fact one- ALL politicians can be sleezy when the "need" arises. Fact two- I think Harper was just doing what he thought realistic given the poor economic situation (tax payers shouldn't be forking out to support political parties and only idiots strike in uncertain times) Fact three- the "coalition" only has majority because they have the Bloc who is totally opposed philisophically on board- it remains to be seen if Michelle John will buy it.
First its becoming clear Stockwell Day tried the same thing in 2000 with the Bloc no less and they have the paper work to prove it apparently. Then in 2004 Harper talked about it, the reason nothing happend is the other parties knew better than to trust him. Harper promised to do everything legal to hold on. Now its being reported he is offering Liberals cabinet posts to jump ship. If that is true, it is in fact illegal to offer inducements with specific deals, and this could become a second police matter, the same as taping and releasing private conversations.
Harper thought he had the opposition on the ropes, and forgot he was dealing with
people who actually know how the laws and rules work. The conservatives clearly do not know these fundamental rules. This is done and the coalition will do it now
or wait until January either way this government and in particular, Harper is finished. The conservatives, didn't understand how much of a problem they created. Parliamentary, rules state this parliament was elected and therefore a coalition government is elected by the people under law like it or not
Harper thought he had the opposition on the ropes, and forgot he was dealing with
people who actually know how the laws and rules work. The conservatives clearly do not know these fundamental rules. This is done and the coalition will do it now
or wait until January either way this government and in particular, Harper is finished. The conservatives, didn't understand how much of a problem they created. Parliamentary, rules state this parliament was elected and therefore a coalition government is elected by the people under law like it or not
Point by point:
1. There was no coalition.....big difference between considering one, and actually handing the Bloc the power.
2. If you are party to a conversation, it is not illegal to tape it.
3. Harper should not be offering cabinet seats true, but it seems to be standard practise......remember Brison? StronacH?
4. Nothing in the law says we can't go to a new election.....allowing the Bloc to become a power in gov't is a serious enough issue to take to the people.
Scary stuff. I saw the PM's speech on TV this evening. I couldn't believe he used the word 'separatist'. As PM, he should know how politically charged the word is. Apparently in the French version of his speech, he used the word 'sovereignist', which suggests that he's well aware of the emotional charge on the word separatist in Quebec. And I'm sure he knows (if he has half a brain) that not only did he put the last nail in his coffin in Quebec, but also most likely p**ed off a lot of sovereignists and even some fence-sitters who might have watched it in English. And I'm sure political commentators in the Quebec media wil mention this difference between the two speeches, if not done already.
Of course this rhetoric about a 'co-alition' with separatists will sit well in the Conservative centres in the west. It will consolidate his powerbase there, kill the Conservatives in Quebec, and polarise the country like never before, and just before a Bloc-supported co-alition is about to take power. So now not only is such a co-alition going to gain some power (which was already a given before the speech), but now he's even potentially fuelled more support for the Bloc and maybe even the PQ. God going Stevie.
Of course this rhetoric about a 'co-alition' with separatists will sit well in the Conservative centres in the west. It will consolidate his powerbase there, kill the Conservatives in Quebec, and polarise the country like never before, and just before a Bloc-supported co-alition is about to take power. So now not only is such a co-alition going to gain some power (which was already a given before the speech), but now he's even potentially fuelled more support for the Bloc and maybe even the PQ. God going Stevie.