When does pro-choice become pro-abortion?

[Outta here]

Warrior,

Fortunately for me, I'm not required to make my arguments - as you term them - in front of a judge. What I've said here is merely my opinion on the matter - to which I'm as equally entitled to as you are - regardless of your Neanderthal views on women and what rights you think we are or are not entitled to.

I've tried to keep things at a better than civil level with you, reached a hand of compassion out to you, yet I still read little more than disdain in your posts to me and anyone else who doesn't echo your close minded, emotionally toxic approach to life. Being angry and wallowing in your perceived persecution is no excuse for the manner in which you conduct yourself. I see no reason to entertain any further discussion with you as you seem incapable of meeting me at a level of mutual respect - and that is a fundamental basis upon which I choose whom I will interact with here and whom I will not.

 

[warrior_won]

Fortunately for me, I'm not required to make my arguments - as you term them - in front of a judge.

But I do. Not on the subject of abortion, mind you. But on a subject some would deem to be equally controversial. That's another debate for another time.

What I've said here is merely my opinion on the matter - to which I'm as equally entitled to as you are

You're right! An opinion is only an opinion. Could you say that a little louder? I want SOMEONE in LONDON to hear that!

- regardless of your Neanderthal views on women

Neanderthal views? My only true view on women is that women have no right to me. I suppose you would hold the similar view that men have no right to you?

and what rights you think we are or are not entitled to.

What rights women are to be permitted, in my view, is reciprocally contingent on what rights women permit men. Equality is a finite quantity. Equality does not mean that one gender should have any advantage over the other -- including, but certainly not limited to, responsibility for their actions.

I've tried to keep things at a better than civil level with you, reached a hand of compassion out to you, yet I still read little more than disdain in your posts to me

Ever hear the tale of 'smiling faces'? It's the story of those who have been cheated by those professing to offer assistance. A defense lawyer, for example, who takes your case with no intention of offering you a defense, is a smiling face. :smile::smile::smile:

and anyone else who doesn't echo your close minded,

I see my views echoed on National television and in the newspapers everyday. If I'm closed-minded, I'm certainly in good company. Although, my opinion on that leans more toward smiling faces.

emotionally toxic approach to life.

What makes you think that I have an emotionally toxic approach to life? Is it the fact that I choose not to be involved in a heterosexual relationship? If so, that goes back to the idea that women believe they have some right to me or my life -- or men in general. They do not. And I am certainly not being emotionally toxic in my view that I am perfectly capable of deciding what can and does make me happy. Heterosexual relationships, for me, just don't make the grade.

Being angry

Can you not understand that some people have legitimate grounds for being angry?

and wallowing in your perceived persecution is no excuse for the manner in which you conduct yourself.

Sure! Whatever! I suppose your view is that having anger toward my persecutors somehow justifies them in perpetuating the persecution? I suppose you feel that people should just be submissive and allow others to screw them over? Because any action to defend one's self... Well, that would just be wrong, right?

I see no reason to entertain any further discussion with you as you seem incapable of meeting me at a level of mutual respect

I will not view that as a negative thing. Truth of the matter is that I'm wasting time posting anything in these forums. It's nothing personal, it's just that it doesn't get anything accomplished for me.

- and that is a fundamental basis upon which I choose whom I will interact with here and whom I will not.

That would seem sound criteria. :smile:

 

[Outta here]

Neanderthal views? My only true view on women is that women have no right to me. I suppose you would hold the similar view that men have no right to you?

Your views on women certainly haven't stopped at whether or not they have a right to you... and you've attributed the qualities of one who has apparently wronged you to all other women on the planet. What's the difference between you painting all women with the same brush and me comparing you to some asshole that abuses women?

What rights women are to be permitted, in my view, is reciprocally contingent on what rights women permit men. Equality is a finite quantity. Equality does not mean that one gender should have any advantage over the other -- including, but certainly not limited to, responsibility for their actions.

... and you contradict yourself whenever it suits you:

Of course, I have nothing but ill-feelings toward the female gender. I genuinely despise females. (Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know... How evil of me. Can't really say that I care.) It is my view that women should have absolutely no rights whatsoever. I offer this only in the interest of full disclosure.

Ever hear the tale of 'smiling faces'? It's the story of those who have been cheated by those professing to offer assistance. A defense lawyer, for example, who takes your case with no intention of offering you a defense, is a smiling face. :smile::smile::smile:

There you go again... give a rest already. I offered an ear and some compassion. You turning that into grounds for suspicion of my motives illustrates a degree of paranoia I have no clue how to respond to, except to assure you I've absolutely no interest in you. At all. Who would with that attitude? Sheesh.

What makes you think that I have an emotionally toxic approach to life? Is it the fact that I choose not to be involved in a heterosexual relationship? If so, that goes back to the idea that women believe they have some right to me or my life -- or men in general. They do not. And I am certainly not being emotionally toxic in my view that I am perfectly capable of deciding what can and does make me happy. Heterosexual relationships, for me, just don't make the grade.

What makes me think that??? Are you for real? For heavens' sake, every other post you make is a negatively charged slam against women. Assuming any woman attempting to interact with you has an ulterior motive is toxic. Twisting other people's words into some bizarre meaning they never intended is toxic. Angrily retorting that you're not interested in a heterosexual relationship with a woman in response to any attempt at friendliness - that's toxic, and mighty egotistic of you while I'm at it.

Can you not understand that some people have legitimate grounds for being angry?

Of course I can. We're all angry about something Warrior. The difference between the majority of us and you is you seem to just wallow in your perceived victimhood and spew ugliness at any innocent passerby who has the misfortune to encounter you - where most others would look for ways to move past the anger and see what they could do to improve their situation, and have the maturity to realize that what has happened to anger them is not to be blamed on an entire segment of society that has never had anything to do with them or their troubles.[/quote]

Sure! Whatever! I suppose your view is that having anger toward my persecutors somehow justifies them in perpetuating the persecution? I suppose you feel that people should just be submissive and allow others to screw them over? Because any action to defend one's self... Well, that would just be wrong, right?

Again... so irrelevent to anything I've said to you that there's no logical response to this except that you suppose wrong. I've never commented on whatever the hell you think you're being persecuted over, nor have I once suggested how you should deal with them or defend yourself. You've jumped to some pretty paranoid conclusions all in all.

I will not view that as a negative thing. Truth of the matter is that I'm wasting time posting anything in these forums. It's nothing personal, it's just that it doesn't get anything accomplished for me.

Well the solution to that seems pretty obvious.

 

[warrior_won]

Your views on women certainly haven't stopped at whether or not they have a right to you...

You are correct. But these views are recent views based on actual circumstances. And when it becomes difficult to separate the good from the bad, you have to choose between giving all the benefit of the doubt or giving none the benefit of the doubt. I've chosen to err on the side of caution, and I give none the benefit of the doubt.

and you've attributed the qualities of one who has apparently wronged you to all other women on the planet.

Not one woman. Several. It's quite possible that this problem is just localized, but there's no way for me to be sure. Again, I err on the side of caution.

What's the difference between you painting all women with the same brush and me comparing you to some asshole that abuses women?

There is no difference. It just so happens that I am being painted with broad strokes. I feel am justified in reciprocating. That's just the way the ball bounces. And quite honestly, until I clear my name, women will continue to paint me with those broad strokes.

... and you contradict yourself whenever it suits you:

I very seldom contradict myself. I will sometimes take my adversary's view just to demonstrate how stupid their view is... But as far as contradicting my own beliefs, it doesn't happen too often. And when it does, it's more the result of a change of opinion. Which I'm entitled to.

There you go again... give a rest already. I offered an ear and some compassion. You turning that into grounds for suspicion of my motives illustrates a degree of paranoia I have no clue how to respond to, except to assure you I've absolutely no interest in you. At all. Who would with that attitude? Sheesh.

When I speak of 'interest' I do not mean a purely romantic, emotional, or sexual way. I mean other ways as well. To collect information, for example. Or to manipulate my thought process or intentions. I'm not saying that you are doing these things, I'm just saying that I can't be sure and I want to err on the side of caution.

As for paranoia? Well, I'm confident that I will be labelled paranoid. Of course, this label would only be applicable in the absence of evidence to the contrary.

What makes me think that??? Are you for real? For heavens' sake, every other post you make is a negatively charged slam against women.

Don't you think that a bit of an exaggeration? I post in more than just the abortion thread. I've made no mention of women in the majority of the other threads I've posted in. The exceptions, of course, are the threads that have women as the subject matter. And even in those I did NOT always make derogatory comments.

Assuming any woman attempting to interact with you has an ulterior motive is toxic.

It's also highly probable under the circumstances.

Regardless, what exactly do you mean by 'toxic'? If you mean not wanting a relationship with a female, I don't view that as being toxic. Especially if I'm happier not being in said relationship.

Twisting other people's words into some bizarre meaning they never intended is toxic.

It's the name of the game. People do it to me... I return the favour. One member, who is also a moderator, twisted my words to mean something that they didn't. She combined by comments on freedom to associate with my comments on finding no fault with pornography. She twisted that into meaning that I was speaking of pornography that was in contravention of the law. So whose unjustly and unfairly painting who here? And what validation do I have to be defensive? I think it's pretty obvious.

Angrily retorting that you're not interested in a heterosexual relationship with a woman in response to any attempt at friendliness - that's toxic,

I suppose you would have to be wrongly accused of stalking a woman before you could understand my rationale on that. I mean, you can hardly blame me for wanting to set the record straight right off the bat -- you're female, I'm male, we're communicating, and never the twain shall meet. It's a mechanism that I've been practicing religiously. I never agree to meet women that I speak to on the Internet... I never share photos or videos of myself... I never engage in voice or video chat... I always make it clear that I have no interest in pursuing an offline relationship of any sort.

and mighty egotistic of you while I'm at it.

lmfao! You only need one trip around the block to realize it's not a nice neighbourhood. It has nothing to do with ego and everything to do with personal security. :smile:

Of course I can. We're all angry about something Warrior. The difference between the majority of us and you is you seem to just wallow in your perceived victimhood and spew ugliness at any innocent passerby who has the misfortune to encounter you - where most others would look for ways to move past the anger and see what they could do to improve their situation,

That's what I did. I wasn't always angry.

and have the maturity to realize that what has happened to anger them is not to be blamed on an entire segment of society that has never had anything to do with them or their troubles.

But blame is justly cast on the segment of society that did have something to do with it... Or failed to act in preventing it from happening. Determining just who is and isn't involved is a trick I don't feel myself terribly proficient at. Nailing someone's ass to the wall, I am good at though. That poor soul can do the talking! lol

Again... so irrelevent to anything I've said to you that there's no logical response to this except that you suppose wrong. I've never commented on whatever the hell you think you're being persecuted over, nor have I once suggested how you should deal with them or defend yourself. You've jumped to some pretty paranoid conclusions all in all.

You HAVE stated that I should NOT deal with it in a certain manner. And you DID say that in ignorance of the facts.

Well the solution to that seems pretty obvious.

Indeed, but it's the Christmas holidays. Not much else I can do at this particular point in time. So I've only time to waste... And why not waste it here?

 

[gerryh]

You're a real glutton for punishment....aren't ya Zan...

 

[Dixie Cup]

My understanding is that Canada DOES NOT have a "period" where abortion is not legal." In Canada, you can have an abortion almost up to the time you deliver. While this particular point isn't what this thread is about, I believe there should be a "point" where an abortion couldn't be considered.

Having said that, I agree that if a woman has made the choice to carry a child to term, with all the inherent risks (i.e. the possibility of a miscarriage) she still has made the choice to continue the pregnancy and if she and/or the child is hurt through criminal means, there should be an extra charge involved.

JMO

 

[Outta here]

You're a real glutton for punishment....aren't ya Zan...

Apparently. :lol::lol::lol:

 

[gerryh]

Apparently. :lol::lol::lol:

even though it is the Christmas season.....and you have proven yourself a giving person.....don't you think you've given him enough?

 

[warrior_won]

You're a real glutton for punishment....aren't ya Zan...

I'm not going to apologize. I'm not going to change my mind on the matter. I'm not going to sacrifice my rights. I'm not going to forego my own personal wishes and happiness just because someone else broke the law and thinks they 'deserve' to get away with the crime. No dice!

It's just not going to happen! And attempting to hold some female over my head like it's some holy grail ain't going to mean sh!t to me... I don't want one. Telling me that you have evidence that I've wanted one in the past is not going to intimidate me or force me to rethink my position. I know full well that I've never been interested.

Having people say how great sex is or how wonderful love is, doesn't amount to a hill of beans. You can't win a case on anecdotal evidence... Especially when the only anecdotal evidence you have is that you enjoy something that I don't enjoy. That doesn't give anyone the right to infringe my rights. And if I can't have my rights, I most certainly don't want anything to do with the people who have denied me my rights. I most certainly will not live under the presumption of guilt, especially when the people accusing me continue to refuse to make a formal allegation and present legitimate and credible evidence. I won't do it!

And you can label me paranoid till the cows come home... I really don't bloody care. I'm not into the chick thing. And if you don't like it... Well, too bloody bad! Don't let the door hit ya on the way out!

 

[lone wolf]

Sorry Warrior, but it really does look like a lot of your wounds are self-inflicted. Does obscessing about them work for anything other than creating a bitter and angry you? Experience tells me no ... but people simply have to learn it all the hard way. Based on the fact you've started at least three threads about you, then hijacked this and a few other threads to turn them into all about you, I have to wonder if it really can be everyone else with the problem. True enough, sometimes we get our toes stepped on. Life's like that. We learn from it and move on. How much of your mountain can be measured in molehills? From my perspective, it seems you are exactly where you want to be.

Woof!

 

[gerryh]

The consequence of not having sex is no birth. They both result in the same outcome. What most pro-lifers get hung up on is the need to penalize someone for "irresponsibility". The sanctity of life is never an issue for them when the women was "responsible", i.e. she was raped. Quickly the embryo/fetus has no right to life since the woman was all nice and not willingly having sex. Even evangelicals will discard a fetus created by rape in a heartbeat. But if she did what we're all biologically wired to do then she did something wrong, the embryo has full human rights, and must pay the consequence.

No Kreskin, the choice of abstinence is does NOT have the same outcome as abortion. With abstinence a human life is not started. Abortion ENDS a life that has begun.

I do take issue with how "pro-life" is bandied around to encompass everyone that has an "anti-abortion" stance. This is a misuse of the word. Case in point, westmanguy has described himself as a "pro-lifer", this is untrue for him as he supports the death penalty and war.

Pro-life, means exactly that, all life is precious. You are correct that is it is not the babies fault how he/she was concieved, and thusly should not have to pay the ultimate price.


There are more than enough options for babies who's mother does not want to raise them, for whatever reason. There is no reason whatsoever to kill a child.

 

[gerryh]

I'm not going to apologize. I'm not going to change my mind on the matter. I'm not going to sacrifice my rights. I'm not going to forego my own personal wishes and happiness just because someone else broke the law and thinks they 'deserve' to get away with the crime. No dice!

.........A whole lot of nonsensical bullshyte deleted............................................


And you can label me paranoid till the cows come home... I really don't bloody care. I'm not into the chick thing. And if you don't like it... Well, too bloody bad! Don't let the door hit ya on the way out!

Wow....you really have that "poor me" crap down pat, don't ya. Now why don't you run along and cry to someone that will actually give a shyte.

 

[Zzarchov]

SO Gerryh, you think then that a raped woman should be forced to have the baby?

 

[gerryh]

SO Gerryh, you think then that a raped woman should be forced to have the baby?

Let's turn that around.....so Zzarchov, you think the baby should be killed because it's mother was raped?

 

[Kreskin]

In Iran they speak of the fetus gaining a "soul" at around 12 weeks. This is their benchmark for outlawing abortion. A belief system like that could never find a reason good enough to support having a choice. These belief systems are a dime a dozen in organized religion, and the religious arguments are what drive the pro-life movements worldwide.

The issue is far too complicated at a personal and medical level to have intolerant belief systems of unrelated parties rendering cookie-cutter laws upon the rest.

 

[gerryh]

In Iran they speak of the fetus gaining a "soul" at around 12 weeks. This is their benchmark for outlawing abortion. A belief system like that could never find a reason good enough to support having a choice. These belief systems are a dime a dozen in organized religion, and the religious arguments are what drive the pro-life movements worldwide.

The issue is far too complicated at a personal and medical level to have intolerant belief systems of unrelated parties rendering cookie-cutter laws upon the rest.

Best you can do is throw in religion? Run out of viable, coherent arguments so you throw in Iran? Pretty sad Kreskin, pretty sad.


Have I even once during this discussion brought up religion? No, so why have you?

 

[warrior_won]

Sorry Warrior, but it really does look like a lot of your wounds are self-inflicted.

It does? How so?

I was accused of something I didn't do. That wasn't self-inflicted!
I was placed under surveillance. That wasn't self-inflicted!
I complained to the police of the crime. They ignored me. That wasn't self-inflicted!
I complained again, and was again ignored. That wasn't self-inflicted!

I don't understand which part was self-inflicted. Is it the part about me being single? Because I don't view that as a wound. I don't complain about not having a girl. I never have. Because I've never wanted a girl.

Which part was self-inflicted? I'd really like to know! If I'm being stalked, my obligations are to:

1) Make my disinterest in the stalker clear. I've done that!
2) Make the situation known to the police. I've done that!

What am I supposed to do? Just say, "Ah what the hell... I don't have a right to live my life anyway. Who am I kidding? Who am I to expect privacy? Who am I to expect to not have to endure harassment and slander? I need to look at the big picture! Some criminal piece of sh!t is getting their kicks by doing this. Do I really have the right to stop them?"

Seriously, dude! I hope you're the lawyer for the 'accused'. The 'accused', of course, being the actual criminal. (Read: Not me!)

Does obscessing about them work for anything other than creating a bitter and angry you?

Obsessing about whom? Women?

Let me try to make you understand this. I'm being accused of being a stalker and a sexual predator. I can't find any legitimate reason to enjoy these labels. I can't find any reason to tolerate having these labels applied to me. I can't find any reason to tolerate having women all over town thinking that I'm out to jump their god damned bones.

I think the facts are relevant. My enemies say that I'm damaging myself. The truth, of course, is that I'm only damaging myself if I am actually after what they say I'm after! And I'm not after what they say I'm after. And it annoys me to no end to have people looking down their fukking noses at me because they think I'm after something that I clearly don't want... Or that I did something that I clearly did not do! To hell with the bastard, man! I don't give a rat's ass about the creep! And that's what they're calling me! Check my fukking reputation! I don't like girls! I never have! I'm confident moving forward with this because there's no way in hell for them to have evidence to the contrary. You can't dig up a girl that just never existed!

Experience tells me no ... but people simply have to learn it all the hard way.

What is it that I'm supposed to be learning? Am I supposed to learn that I cannot make my own decisions? Am I supposed to learn to love every bitch that finds me attractive? Am I supposed to learn to accept that I'm nothing but a fukking playtoy for some piece of sh!t? I'm not going to learn that!

I think the bitch needs to learn that she can't always get what she wants! I think the bitch needs to learn that it doesn't matter how fukking special she thinks she is! She does not own me! She has no right to me! And I don't give a rat's ass about her feelings! It's not my fukking problem!

Based on the fact you've started at least three threads about you, then hijacked this and a few other threads to turn them into all about you, I have to wonder if it really can be everyone else with the problem.

What three threads? I actually haven't started many threads here at all... Which ones were about me?

True enough, sometimes we get our toes stepped on.

Toes stepped on? I have been under unlawful surveillance for more than six years! My toes weren't stepped on, my life was stepped on! I'm looking for justice and I'm looking for cause. Some prick told me the cause was that I messed with some dude's woman. What woman? I asked! I've never been interested in women in my entire fukking life!

Then I get the bull**** from the police service! No one is that fukking incompetent! Toes stepped on? My reputation has been destroyed! My privacy has been eliminated! My credibility has been shot! I have more unfounded allegations against me than... Sh!t... I have no idea!

And you're going to call this self-inflicted? You're going to ask me to just move on? You're going to suggest that I may be wrong? You're going to tell me that I owe someone an apology? Think again!

Life's like that. We learn from it and move on.

Nice try! No dice!

How much of your mountain can be measured in molehills?

Five months in jail for a crime I didn't commit? Molehill!
Doing the five months in jail for being the actual victim? Molehill's getting bigger!
Being railroaded by a corrupt police service who knew that I was the victim? Molehill's pretty damn big now!
Continuing to be victimized more than five years after the fact? That's a fukking mountain!

From my perspective, it seems you are exactly where you want to be.

Relationship wise? I am exactly where I want to be!
Justice wise? I am getting very close!
Financial wise? I will soon have it made in the shade!
Forgivness wise? Never gonna happen! Never gonna forgive! And that doesn't make me a very good Christian! Oh fukking well!

 

[Kreskin]

Best you can do is throw in religion? Run out of viable, coherent arguments so you throw in Iran? Pretty sad Kreskin, pretty sad.


Have I even once during this discussion brought up religion? No, so why have you?

I'm done arguing with people who prefer to enslave women over the sanctity of 20-celled embryos. There is nothing coherent in an argument that promotes slavery.

Besides I wasn't specifically talking to you.

 

[lone wolf]

Just read your attitude then tell me if your first impression would be poor you ... or screw you.

Woof!

 

[gerryh]

I'm done arguing with people who prefer to enslave women over the sanctity of 20-celled embryos. There is nothing coherent in an argument that promotes slavery.

Besides I wasn't specifically talking to you.

At this point, Kreskin, I am the only one taking the "pro-life" stance. Who else were you talking to? Or are you in the habit of babbling into the wind?


I am not talking about "enslaving" anyone. Those "20 celled embryos" grow into beuatiful little boys and girls. Or is that the problem? I have noticed that most people, if not all, when talking about abortions refer to unborn children as "embryos", "zygots", or even "masses of tissue". Yet they refer to their own children, even when they are at the same stage as these "zygots", as children. What would be the difference between YOUR kids when they were a mere 8 to 12 weeks gestation and these others? Did you not consider them "human" before they were born? Did you not start planning, loving, and caring for their being and future?