When does pro-choice become pro-abortion?

[karrie]

I hear the term bandied about all the time. Pro-choice. It speaks of empowerment. It speaks of a woman's rights.

But at what point is our country no longer a 'pro-choice' country, and merely a 'pro-abortion' country?

To me, that fine line is crossed when we refuse to stand up for the rights of women to define what their pregnancy is. Choice. I made my choice, and even at the tender age of a month inutero, my 'fetus' was a life to me. My rights should protect that choice as strongly as they protect a woman's right to decide that it's a cluster of cells to be discarded. But our country doesn't do that. We still refuse to define a woman's chosen pregnancy as life, because doing so 'might' give the fetus rights. We refuse to grant women who keep their babies the rights they deserve, to choose, because it's feared it might be misinterpreted as the rights of the fetus, and endanger the right to abort. We are not a pro-choice country when we take this stance. We need to be defending all choices.

http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Edmonton/2007/12/17/4728409-sun.html

 

[Outta here]

I agree Karrie. I am pro-choice, but in no way do I think the legalese of the situation should be allowed to be twisted and bastardized to be applied to a situation such as this. If and when a pregnancy is terminated, it should be done with informed consent, guidance and under medical supervision. Pregnancies terminated as a result of any act of violence are murder - even if it's only classified as 'second degree' or 'manslaughter' if the intent wasn't to cause harm to the baby. It's one of the few issues I see in stark black and white.

 

[karrie]

Ah, according to Joyce Arthur, you're merely a pro-lifer in disguise then Zan.


"In a statement released by the Abortion Rights Coalition of Canada, spokesman Joyce Arthur said that the "intent of this law is to give rights to fetuses so that abortion can be re-criminalized."
"They're desperate to find a way to reverse abortion rights, and it's very unfortunate that they're exploiting the tragic murders of pregnant women to do so," she added."

 

[#juan]

I will add one man's (mine) opinion to this once again. First, I have watched the debate of pro-choice versus pro-life for longer than most here. I have seen my wife, a registered nurse, now retired, come home in tears from a hospital I won't name, because Saturday was "abortion day" at that hospital. She cried about how perfectly formed the fetuses were. and how they watched them die. She also talked about how some of the women were in for their second or third abortion and this was not that long ago.
In my opinion, abortion should not be used as a form of birth control except when the mother's life is threatened. The best form of birth control is common sense. It is not as if we don't know how we get pregnant. Oops is no longer an excuse to terminate the second or third pregnancy for the same woman except that maybe we are helping to end a line of stupidity in that particular family.

 

[karrie]

Now, while I agree with you view juan, you're a prime example of the problem with getting this bill passed. People have a near impossible time not tying the issue to that of abortion. This isn't about whether I agree with abortion or not. It's about whether or not a pregnant woman should be allowed to call her child a human being before it's born. Whether or not it is 'murder' to end the life of her child against her will.

The issue so often ends up being that of 'pro-life vs pro-choice' when that's NOT where the focus should be. It should be on whether we want to be defined as a TRULY pro-choice country, or merely a pro-abortion one. If we're only concerned with women's rights so long as they are treating pregnancy as an illness to be cured in a clinic, then we are doing a major disservice to the rights of all the other women.

 

[Zzarchov]

What about

"Ooops, my step dad is molesting me but If I turn him in me and my family are out on the street even if he does end up in jail" ? Is that a valid excuse for three abortions?

Yes it may be rare, but that doesn't make it ok.

I also don't like the idea of recriminalizing birth control, which is exactly where we are headed.

Quite frankly a fetus ISN'T a person. it could be a person if left to its own devices, but it isn't. It doesn't have a functioning brain (at the point abortions occur legally of course).

Abortion and Birth Control have brought massive positive change to our standard of living, and the solution to those who find them appaling is simple. Don't have one, and don't accept a job where you have to perform or aid in them.

That is just my 2 cents though, I don't consider things that "could be some day" a person to be a person. I don't see the need to let something come to be just so it can live a horrid life with resentful "parents" who wanted it aborted anyways. Its not a coincidence that legalized abortion coincides with lower youth crime rates.

If you don't think the next step after re-criminalizing abortion is recriminalizing Birth Control you might wanna get back on the turnip truck before it pulls too far away, things never stop at one change (in either direction, ie first homosexuality was decriminalized, then the next push for equal rights, then the next for gay marriage, likewise the forces pushing against will first revoke gay marriage, then equal rights, then criminalize it, its human nature)

 

[karrie]

nobody's talking about re-criminalizing abortion in this thread (or at least they shouldn't be... it's irrelevant). The issue is about making it murder to take the life of a baby a woman has CHOSEN to have.

 

[Zzarchov]

But that is where this really leads, its not really murder since it really isn't a person, and quite frankly, she can try and conceive again.

Putting aside the fact that pregnant and happy about it or not, there is still the very real chance of a miscarriage (meaning it wasn't ever going to be a person).

So lets think about what this would mean, if a women rides a bus that goes into a ditch, and has a miscarriage (related or not).

Now the bus driver is guilty of Involuntary Manslaughter (Criminal Negligence causing death).

Likewise if a woman insists on doing laundry and falls down the stairs 3 months into her pregnancy (as she doesn't have a partner, say a one night stand), then she too not only has to deal with mental anguish of the miscarriage, she now is guilty of Involuntary Manslaughter as well, her negligent behaviour has caused the death of a person.

Hell, even if she just had a miscarriage, there would still be an inquest into this matter, and there would be false convictions. One only needs to look to the case to SIDS to see what the outcome would be for many unfairly targetted honest families.

 

[karrie]

But so often here ZZarchov, we're talking about cases where the woman is past that three month risk period, she's past the term for a legal abortion even, and is killed or has her pregnancy ended intentionally, through beatings and worse.

When abortion is no longer an option, the woman has clearly made a choice, and the life is intentionally ended through targeted agression against the pregnant woman, I see no reason why her choice shouldn't be given legal protection.

 

[AmberEyes]

If the woman, or both parents, decide they want to have the child, that a fetus IS a life, then it should be treated as so. If they decide it's nothing more than a lump of cells, then they should have the right to treat it so. The issue is split in so many ways. I personally do not want an abortion, but I believe a woman should be given the choice. I'm pro-choice, not pro-abortion.

 

[#juan]

nobody's talking about re-criminalizing abortion in this thread (or at least they shouldn't be... it's irrelevant). The issue is about making it murder to take the life of a baby a woman has CHOSEN to have.

I happen to think that little crawler is human from conception till birth, till dying of old age. Any one who ends that little life or any other human life intentionally is guilty of manslaughter at least or even murder whether the woman has chosen to "have" the baby or not. I don't believe the baby is part of the woman's body. The woman, with the aid of a man, is creating another human being. To say at some later date that "It's only X number of months, so I can kill it if I want" is ludicrous. My opinions are not based on religion. Our society has agreed to overlook that manslaughter to a point and I won't fight it but I don't have to like it.

 

[Outta here]

Ah, according to Joyce Arthur, you're merely a pro-lifer in disguise then Zan.


"In a statement released by the Abortion Rights Coalition of Canada, spokesman Joyce Arthur said that the "intent of this law is to give rights to fetuses so that abortion can be re-criminalized."
"They're desperate to find a way to reverse abortion rights, and it's very unfortunate that they're exploiting the tragic murders of pregnant women to do so," she added."

Well if I ever run into Ms. Joyce Arthur myself, I'll make a point of letting her know that I'll decide for myself which term and definition of same applies to my opinions. lol

I see the double edged sword this issue raises - seems damn near impossible to discuss this as a legitimate, separate issue from pro-life vs pro-choice - the outcome would inevitably impact the validity of any other laws pertaining to the voluntary cessation of pregnancy.

 

[no color]

I happen to think that little crawler is human from conception till birth, till dying of old age. Any one who ends that little life or any other human life intentionally is guilty of manslaughter at least or even murder whether the woman has chosen to "have" the baby or not. I don't believe the baby is part of the woman's body. The woman, with the aid of a man, is creating another human being. To say at some later date that "It's only X number of months, so I can kill it if I want" is ludicrous. My opinions are not based on religion. Our society has agreed to overlook that manslaughter to a point and I won't fight it but I don't have to like it.

Good post. I'd like to add to it by saying that the unborn baby is also defensless. :-(

 

[#juan]

Sorry girls

I was sure the argument I took would draw some opposition.....oh well.......;-):smile:

 

[Zzarchov]

But so often here ZZarchov, we're talking about cases where the woman is past that three month risk period, she's past the term for a legal abortion even, and is killed or has her pregnancy ended intentionally, through beatings and worse.

When abortion is no longer an option, the woman has clearly made a choice, and the life is intentionally ended through targeted agression against the pregnant woman, I see no reason why her choice shouldn't be given legal protection.

And think about what that means for the woman with the baby. You can't say its alive, but only when OTHER people harm it.

If it is a truly living thing, than a mother engaging in risky behaviour (anything the doctor considers strenous activity) or even being clumsy (standing on a chair to get something off the fridge) which results in a miscarriage is no different than a mother who has given birth doing something risky, resulting in a childs death (ie, not locking the pool door, or the cleaning liquid cupboard).

And like any other child, a miscarriage (ie, a dead child) would result in an investigation, much the same as any dead kid (ie, Sids, neglect, accidents).

Likewise if you go from conception, something as simple as not knowing your pregnant (ie, forgetting you missed a period) and drinking could be child abuse (negligence resulting in harm) or if you went back on birthcontrol, manslaughter (As that would, depending on method, abort the baby).

If its a person its a person, regardless of if you choose to have it. If you are saying a fetus is a person, then it would be a person whether or not you chose to have it.

Its not as if its not a crime to cause to miscarriage, but it isn't murder, and shouldn't be.

 

[YoungJoonKim]

Yes, it isn't murder to some but it is erasing of life that might be true.
This is so stupid, to be honest and this is my sincere opinion.
If I could have and carry a child [I am man] and Doctor tells me, "You have possibly two options: one is to give life at the risk of my life and the baby and two is to abort.
I would choose one because I would die knowing I tried to save a life at the risk of mine. It is the right choice. This is personal by the way, just me.
Unfortunately, I am male so lol

 

[karrie]

- the outcome would inevitably impact the validity of any other laws pertaining to the voluntary cessation of pregnancy.

See, I just don't get why it would. It seems ridiculous to me.

PRO-CHOICE.

If we have chosen as a country to stand for a woman's right to decide, then we ought to actually stand for it. It doesn't have to have anything to do with granting the 'fetus' rights, and everything with honoring the choice of the mother. Why is it such a hard thing to write a law like that?

 

[karrie]

Sorry girls

I was sure the argument I took would draw some opposition.....oh well.......;-):smile:

lol. stirring the pot are you juan?

 

[karrie]

And think about what that means for the woman with the baby. You can't say its alive, but only when OTHER people harm it.

If it is a truly living thing, than a mother engaging in risky behaviour (anything the doctor considers strenous activity) or even being clumsy (standing on a chair to get something off the fridge) which results in a miscarriage is no different than a mother who has given birth doing something risky, resulting in a childs death (ie, not locking the pool door, or the cleaning liquid cupboard).

And like any other child, a miscarriage (ie, a dead child) would result in an investigation, much the same as any dead kid (ie, Sids, neglect, accidents).

Likewise if you go from conception, something as simple as not knowing your pregnant (ie, forgetting you missed a period) and drinking could be child abuse (negligence resulting in harm) or if you went back on birthcontrol, manslaughter (As that would, depending on method, abort the baby).

If its a person its a person, regardless of if you choose to have it. If you are saying a fetus is a person, then it would be a person whether or not you chose to have it.

Its not as if its not a crime to cause to miscarriage, but it isn't murder, and shouldn't be.

Why would a miscarriage result in an investigation anymore than an abortion would? If you're granting a woman the sole right to her body and to decide the path of her fetus, then she has the right to miscarry, stand on chairs, whatever. It's her body, right?

It seems you're granting status to the fetus, rather than to the mother.

 

[lone wolf]

My first daughter was born at a stage in gestation when some folks would have us believe the fetus isn't even human yet. Though see-through, extremely tiny and in need of a lot of help, she was alive - and human. For a week, she fought to live, survived bowel surgery, learned to breath on her own. At the end of that week, my wife had to leave Toronto. The bed she occupied for a longer-than-usual period (owing to distance from the city) was needed. Thus, her seveal times a day visits had to end.

Not two days later, we were called by Sick Kids. Message was: Our baby had developed some sort of blood infection and if we wanted to see her alive, we'd better get there as fast as we could. Several hours after we arrived, she recovered. The only explanation neo-natal could give us was she thought she was abandoned and she gave up herself - all at the age where she's not supposed to be capable of human thought yet. Today she is a fine 24-year-old woman - and VERY human.

My stand is abortion isn't right - for me. Life should not be frittered away, so I am totally against it being a form of birth control. There again, it's not right for me. The chances of me ever getting pregnant are terribly slim. For someone else: It's her body. Abortion is a matter between her and her conscience. I would not want to see a day where abortion for birth control becomes as common as cesarean section for childbirth - for convenience. I guess in that way, I am reluctantly pro-choice.

Woof!