What would YOU want to hear at church?

[L Gilbert]

I was just pointing out the arrogance, the same arrogance that adopted shows. If you can't see it. Not a hell of a lot I can do about that.

There's no arrogance in stating an observation.

 

[lone wolf]

There's no arrogance in stating an observation.

To me, stomping on that observation is a tad in poor taste....

 

[gerryh]

There's no arrogance in stating an observation.

Really? an observation?

As I explained before, you only think you know things. If there is no evidence for what you believe, then you DON'T know, you THINK you know.

.

Nope, that isn't an observation. You are stating what someone knows, doesn't know, and thinks. That's arrogant on your part.

 

[L Gilbert]

Nah, you just think it is.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Seems to me that evidence only one person can detect isn't really evidence, that's the wrong word for it. I dunno what the right one is, or if there is one, but nobody can make a case to somebody else on evidence only he or she can see. And given what we know about how readily the human mind fools itself into believing things it wants to be true, claims of personal revelation always have to be treated with deep skepticism."Trust me, I know what I know" just doesn't cut it.

 

[gerryh]

Seems to me that evidence only one person can detect isn't really evidence, that's the wrong word for it. I dunno what the right one is, or if there is one, but nobody can make a case to somebody else on evidence only he or she can see. And given what we know about how readily the human mind fools itself into believing things it wants to be true, claims of personal revelation always have to be treated with deep skepticism."Trust me, I know what I know" just doesn't cut it.

I'm not trying to "make a case" to anyone. You don't believe me, I don't give a rats ass. Your opinion means less than nothing to me. Your, or any other narrow minded idiots opinion of what is or isn't "real" evidence means less than nothing to me. Same as my opinion of what you believe is worth less than shyte to you.

 

[talloola]

I have to admit something, as I allready explained in earlier post, I don't believe in any god, BUT
I did have so much early catholic schooling, catachism, church etc., that even now, when I go into
a church it is very familiar to me, a comfortable feeling, I can sit there and remember long ago,
all of the teachers, brothers, priests etc., and I liked them all as people, and I love the churches,
the buildings, the architecture, so there is a peculiar connection between myself and the church.

On a recent trip to victoria, my daughter and I visited one of the old churches, walked around,
admired the architecture etc. The priest talked to us for a short time, we thanked him, and went
on our way. On the next trip to victoria, we will pick out a different church to visit.

When I walk into the church, the memories just flow.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

I'm not trying to "make a case" to anyone.

Maybe not, but for a moment there it sure looked like you were, you said you had proof of a particular claim and were asked to provide it, but you just dropped back into your usual name calling and abuse. Beats me why you bother to post at all, you just seem to be pissed off all the time at everybody who challenges you. And it beats me how you can give me greenies and also call me an ignorant idiot on the same subject.

 

[gerryh]

Maybe not, but for a moment there it sure looked like you were, you said you had proof of a particular claim and were asked to provide it, but you just dropped back into your usual name calling and abuse. Beats me why you bother to post at all, you just seem to be pissed off all the time at everybody who challenges you. And it beats me how you can give me greenies and also call me an ignorant idiot on the same subject.

Tit for tat.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Seems to me that evidence only one person can detect isn't really evidence, that's the wrong word for it. I dunno what the right one is, or if there is one, but nobody can make a case to somebody else on evidence only he or she can see. And given what we know about how readily the human mind fools itself into believing things it wants to be true, claims of personal revelation always have to be treated with deep skepticism."Trust me, I know what I know" just doesn't cut it.

I hear you, & I don't know what the right word is either, if it even
exists. If someone finds 'personal' evidence of something, and
their goal isn't to preach in an effort to condemn or recruit, or
both simultaneously (which doesn't seem to work but does
seem to happen often), and uses that as a guiding tool to
direct their own lives, when it doesn't harm themselves
or others, then good on them, in my opinion.

Wow, that was a really long sentence.

If that "evidence" is only used to further (or redirect) the observers
stance with respect to wherever their faith may lay, without the
need to sell the concept to others...does it really matter if it can't
be objectively demonstrated to others?

Agh....it's just so tough to put such abstract and personal concepts
into words.

If someone is able to find comfort in their own 'personal' evidence of
something, without it being used as a club on their neighbours head,
I think that's just fine, and that's about as close to religion as I care
to get. That "something" above can be God or Gods or the Great Spirit
or the Great Pumpkin or Nature or whatever....I don't think that really
matters in the long run.

I know what I'm stumbling on about is pretty convoluted, but does it
make some sort of sense?

 

[lone wolf]

I'm thinking if this "pastor" ever gets a word in past or through either of them and gets the sermon together (thus, this bash off the ground) it might be a long and loud thing....

David Spade - Brother Love's Traveling Salvation Show - YouTube

...but the salesmanship is all off....

 

[adopted]

If someone is able to find comfort in their own 'personal' evidence of
something, without it being used as a club on their neighbours head,
I think that's just fine, and that's about as close to religion as I care
to get.

I hear you, and others, saying, "It's not fair." But that really is how it works. Our pastor reminded us today that the sun that softens the wax also hardens the clay. Jesus talked about it like this:

To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: “‘“You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’
But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

-- (from Matthew 13)
​

See, this isn't my teaching, my opinion, my religion, or my ideas. This is Christ's teaching. If you have a complaint, your complaint is with Him, the Son of God.

 

[L Gilbert]

Seems to me that evidence only one person can detect isn't really evidence, that's the wrong word for it. I dunno what the right one is, or if there is one, but nobody can make a case to somebody else on evidence only he or she can see. And given what we know about how readily the human mind fools itself into believing things it wants to be true, claims of personal revelation always have to be treated with deep skepticism."Trust me, I know what I know" just doesn't cut it.

Quite.

According to Oxford's dictionary, evidence:
"noun

the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid"
If there's no availability, it's not evidence.

Definition of "proof" from Oxford:
"evidence or argument establishing a fact or the truth of a statement"

If there's no providing proof for a claim, the claim is an empty one.

 

[Serryah]

I hear you, and others, saying, "It's not fair." But that really is how it works. Our pastor reminded us today that the sun that softens the wax also hardens the clay. Jesus talked about it like this:

To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: “‘“You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’
But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

-- (from Matthew 13)
​

See, this isn't my teaching, my opinion, my religion, or my ideas. This is Christ's teaching. If you have a complaint, your complaint is with Him, the Son of God.

And read again the quote you quoted: "If someone is able to find comfort in their own 'personal' evidence of something , without it being used as a club on their neighbours head,
I think that's just fine, and that's about as close to religion as I care
to get."

What you are saying yourself, though, is that it is YOUR way or no way. That it is YOUR faith and religion, your "comfort", and nothing else. It is the only way, truth, and light. Your way is the only way and the only GOOD way.

But really the quote means ANY faith can be used and so long as someone is able to find that "comfort" and do good with it, then it's just as valid.

That's what people have an issue with. And then you spout off "It's not my teaching, it's Jesus"; so what, you're blaming Christ now because your belief, your "comfort" is so anal, stiff and superior?

 

[Cliffy]

I hear you, and others, saying, "It's not fair." But that really is how it works. Our pastor reminded us today that the sun that softens the wax also hardens the clay. Jesus talked about it like this:

To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: “‘“You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’
But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

-- (from Matthew 13)
​

See, this isn't my teaching, my opinion, my religion, or my ideas. This is Christ's teaching. If you have a complaint, your complaint is with Him, the Son of God.

See, this is your opinion that that is the teachings of Jesus. It is your opinion that the bible is the word of god. It may or may not have any relevance to anybody else. Just because you think it should, is still only your opinion. It is not evidence and it can be proven to be exactly the opposite to what you think it is. This whole thread has been about you preaching what you think is the word and proving anybody who disagrees as wrong. And that is precisely what detractors have been saying. One's journey is a private affair. Making it a public affair will just bring on ridicule. What other people believe, think and do is none of your business, and most people don't want to hear about your beliefs or to hear you telling them they are wrong. You make that judgement and you can expect others to call you on your BS.

 

[adopted]

What you are saying yourself, though, is that it is YOUR way or no way. That it is YOUR faith and religion, your "comfort", and nothing else. It is the only way, truth, and light. Your way is the only way and the only GOOD way.

Christ was exclusive in his preaching. He taught that His way is the only way. And you keep getting angry at me about it. I'm just believing what He said.

See, this is your opinion that that is the teachings of Jesus. It is your opinion that the bible is the word of god.

That's right. This is the difference between people who believe the Bible, and people who don't. I'm saying, this is what's in the Bible, and others keep pretending that it's just my stuff, that I'm just making it up, or it's just my opinion.

You make that judgement and you can expect others to call you on your BS.

I'm not trying to avoid being "called" on something. I expect it. My duty isn't to sugar coat things, or to avoid being judged.

 

[L Gilbert]

Christ was exclusive in his preaching. He taught that His way is the only way. And you keep getting angry at me about it. I'm just believing what He said.

lol Then why all the BS about "free will"? Why not just let people believe and do what they will? If they choose to believe in Christian rhetoric, fine. If they don't, that's fine also. But if the only "evidence" you have to back up your views comes from the Bible, it isn't worth much.

That's right. This is the difference between people who believe the Bible, and people who don't. I'm saying, this is what's in the Bible, and others keep pretending that it's just my stuff, that I'm just making it up, or it's just my opinion.

Well, to be exact, what you say the Bible says and means is only your interpretation.

 

[lone wolf]

Christ was exclusive in his preaching. He taught that His way is the only way. And you keep getting angry at me about it. I'm just believing what He said.
.

Oddly enough, 'angry' doesn't appear in my interpretation. Projecting a little of you into something, are we?

 

[Serryah]

Christ was exclusive in his preaching. He taught that His way is the only way. And you keep getting angry at me about it. I'm just believing what He said.

Adopted, I'm not angry; far from it. Actually I am shaking my head and wondering why you are so blind to your own arrogance. But I'm far, far from angry. Frustrated perhaps a little, because people who do not see logic, or see their hypocrisy frustrate me. Not angry.

And you're not "just believing what He said". You are here not only saying it's what you believe - even though you also say you're worthless - you are also saying to those who do not believe as you do that they are more worthless than you are. You are judging people. You're not God.

That's right. This is the difference between people who believe the Bible, and people who don't. I'm saying, this is what's in the Bible, and others keep pretending that it's just my stuff, that I'm just making it up, or it's just my opinion.

As was already posted - it's your INTERPRETATION - which is a big difference. Everyone can read the Bible and get different things from it, and that's obvious from the very fact there are so many various forms of Christianity. So in essence, it IS your opinion.

I'm not trying to avoid being "called" on something. I expect it. My duty isn't to sugar coat things, or to avoid being judged.

Then stop whining that people are calling you on your BS.

Look, I got asked - by MHz I think - to "explain" my version of God. Well here's my reply. It/She/He/They are God, that's it. Beyond that is personal. What I may see God as, or what God is not, is my business and no one else's. But here's a little of what I see: I see a bit of "God", whoever It/She/He/They are, in everything, in every religion, ergo EVERY religion is valid to me no matter if it's Pagan, Christian, Jewish, Islam, Buddhist, Native American or, hell, even Satanism. And I'm sure you and the other Christians here will be all frothy over that but y'know, so what?

I believe. In the end, if all you're about is a Faith in God, then that should be enough. How and in Whose name I worship should not matter. I can call my God Zeus, Ra, Thor, Odin, the Creator, Gloosecap, or Fart in the Wind; the name does not matter.

To quote one of my favorite books: Evil done in the name of Good is still Evil; Good done in the name of Evil is still Good. It matters not the Name, only what is done. That is part of my belief, my faith. So is "Be good to one another." I try - sometimes I fail - but I try.

And thus far, it's been pretty good, so obviously (as I see it anyway) some God must be pleased.

 

[Nuggler]

8O.........Sorry, bretheren and Cistern; after today, the church will be closed due to lack of interest.

BUT..............we sold it to Tim Horton's for a helluva buck.

Praise deee lord. See youse in Fla, you ol' congregation you.