Too many cops on leave WITH pay?

JLM

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Exactly what Unf said. It's not like this is unique with Law Enforcement. Pretty much any public service job is the same(Firefighter, Paramedic, teacher, etc.).

This is more to protect the innocent officers(it's not like no one has ever thrown false accusations at them, right?) than it is to reward the guilty officers.



So the officer(and by extension, his family) should not be paid during this time? Say they finally figure out that the accuser was simply someone with an axe to grind, but not for months(as it finally comes out during the trial)! I don't know about you, but I certainly can't afford to not have a paycheque for months as I have bills to pay.

If the officer is guilty, then perhaps he should have to pay back some of that money he earned while under suspension.



You know, you seem to be painting police officers with a pretty broad brush. Just because some are guilty, does NOT mean they are all guilty. So, to spite the guilty ones let the innocent ones suffer. That is not justice, that is just assinine.

Sorry I guess we have to agree to disagree on this one. I listed some examples for Karrie the other day, four or five examples of extreme brutality. This latest is a case where there are several witness and footage on camera and the victim was mentally disabled. I would never advocate suspending an officer without pay for unsubstantiated whining from one complainant. Please don't put words in my mouth.
 

shadowshiv

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May 29, 2007
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Sorry I guess we have to agree to disagree on this one. I listed some examples for Karrie the other day, four or five examples of extreme brutality. This latest is a case where there are several witness and footage on camera and the victim was mentally disabled. I would never advocate suspending an officer without pay for unsubstantiated whining from one complainant. Please don't put words in my mouth.

I never did. I was going by what you said in your post. Your description was towards police in general. It wasn't until later posts that you mentioned the specific case.

Even though dirty cops disgust me to no end, they are entitled to the same processes as anyone else.

Video can be altered, witnesses can be unreliable(ask 20 people what they saw, and generally you'll get 20 different answers), people can lie. That is why they can't rush through this. I am not saying this to be the case in the incident you mentioned earlier, I am just making it a general example. Civilians who are charged with a crime can generally still be allowed to work(all dependent on the severity of the crime and their job, of course) so why should the officer not be allowed the same provisions? It's not like he is allowed to roam the streets or anything, he is confined to his desk while everything is sorted out.
 

JLM

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I never did. I was going by what you said in your post. Your description was towards police in general. It wasn't until later posts that you mentioned the specific case.

Even though dirty cops disgust me to no end, they are entitled to the same processes as anyone else.

Video can be altered, witnesses can be unreliable(ask 20 people what they saw, and generally you'll get 20 different answers), people can lie. That is why they can't rush through this. I am not saying this to be the case in the incident you mentioned earlier, I am just making it a general example. Civilians who are charged with a crime can generally still be allowed to work(all dependent on the severity of the crime and their job, of course) so why should the officer not be allowed the same provisions? It's not like he is allowed to roam the streets or anything, he is confined to his desk while everything is sorted out.

I realize what you are saying but most of what you cite can be verified very quickly- like in this case one look at the victims face and not ALL the witnesses are going to lie and I believe altering video, would require some time. My O.P. stated that too many cops were on leave with pay, NOT that none of them should be. So I fail to see how my description was towards police in general- at worst only against cops using brutality.
 

Unforgiven

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You know, Eric Nagler is a pretty good example of why JLM's position is wrong.
For those who don't know, Eric was a children's entertainer on track for some pretty big things. Already had a few shows on tv, a live act as well as numerous appearances on children's television programming. One day some young girl through her parents lawyer, announced that Eric sexually molested her. They files suit and a criminal investigation was launched. In the end it was found that the girl, prompted by her parents, lied and there never was any sort of impropriety by Eric.

He was totally innocent, but his career never returned to where it was. All because people think the worst and that sticks.

Even when it's the worst in human behaviour, we have to stick to due process. Because if we don't it is very easy to slide that level of proof from eye witness and video evidence, to lesser forms until we end up with as EAO mentioned, lynch mobs hanging people without trial.

JLM isn't going to understand this but I hope the rest of you do.
 

JLM

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You know, Eric Nagler is a pretty good example of why JLM's position is wrong.
For those who don't know, Eric was a children's entertainer on track for some pretty big things. Already had a few shows on tv, a live act as well as numerous appearances on children's television programming. One day some young girl through her parents lawyer, announced that Eric sexually molested her. They files suit and a criminal investigation was launched. In the end it was found that the girl, prompted by her parents, lied and there never was any sort of impropriety by Eric.

He was totally innocent, but his career never returned to where it was. All because people think the worst and that sticks.

Even when it's the worst in human behaviour, we have to stick to due process. Because if we don't it is very easy to slide that level of proof from eye witness and video evidence, to lesser forms until we end up with as EAO mentioned, lynch mobs hanging people without trial.

JLM isn't going to understand this but I hope the rest of you do.

We are talking about two totally different things. There are always going to be false accusations made. I NEVER had any problem with the cop being paid. I just had a problem with him being on "holiday" while he rec'd it. It seems to me the sensible posters on here understand what I'm talking about.
 

taxslave

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I think some of you are deliberately missing JLMs point. If the cop was put on desk duty he can be paid. He was suspended therefore he should not be on the payroll. He can apply for EI just like anyone else. Even in a union workplace if one gets suspended for wrongdoing they are not paid while waiting for a grievance to be processed. If they win the grievance they get backpay. If they loose , no cash.
In this case I don't think he has to wait for a trial, just an internal inquiry which does not take long. Doesn't mean he won't face a civil or even criminal trial later though.
 

lone wolf

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I'd like to see the loophole of reduction in rank without sanction in lieu of official reprimand closed. One bad cop whose Police Association tricks keep his/her antics from the public eye is a danger to anyone in a uniform.
 
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Unforgiven

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We are talking about two totally different things. There are always going to be false accusations made. I NEVER had any problem with the cop being paid. I just had a problem with him being on "holiday" while he rec'd it. It seems to me the sensible posters on here understand what I'm talking about.

I understand exactly what you're talking about. You want to bypass Charter rights for something as stupid as money.
What this cop makes in a year, amounts to an expense account for a cabinet minister. You don't understand that for any sort of judgement to be made and investigation has to happen first. The results compiled and then reviewed by someone who is judged competent in this sort of matters.

Once that's done then he can be charged if warranted and at that point he can be terminated from his employment.

Sure you could do it in a couple days since your sitting around doing nothing all day and have only the one this that you read in the paper pissing your off to deal with. Unfortunately, most other people have a job and those who's job it is to investigate this kind of thing when it happens have many demands on their time. There are union rules to navigate, and procedure so that the case isn't bungled because the officer's rights have been violated. Because when that happens, the case gets tossed out of court regardless of evidence.

What you are suggesting would be inside of a week tied up in so much red tape and appeals it would take years in the courts and more often than not fail at trial which then means the officer who has committed the crime now has a civil case against you and the justice system that has to be heard and since you never proved that he was guilty all the things you did, fired him, caused him to lose his house, car, cottage what ever, is now actionable. Not to mention that since you made these mistakes there are punitive damages considered as well because it's negligence not to do your job in a manner that abides the Charter rights. Which you violated.

So the victim doesn't get any award because you allowed the officer to walk and the officer gets a winfall again because you can't hold your water and have to rush ahead with judgement long before there is any due process.

Just how much do you think that would cost?

I think some of you are deliberately missing JLMs point. If the cop was put on desk duty he can be paid. He was suspended therefore he should not be on the payroll. He can apply for EI just like anyone else. Even in a union workplace if one gets suspended for wrongdoing they are not paid while waiting for a grievance to be processed. If they win the grievance they get backpay. If they loose , no cash.
In this case I don't think he has to wait for a trial, just an internal inquiry which does not take long. Doesn't mean he won't face a civil or even criminal trial later though.

He can also taint the case by talking about it at work where all the cops are. The claim a mistrial and probably win one because witnesses were influenced.
 

JLM

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I understand exactly what you're talking about. You want to bypass Charter rights for something as stupid as money.
What this cop makes in a year, amounts to an expense account for a cabinet minister. You don't understand that for any sort of judgement to be made and investigation has to happen first. The results compiled and then reviewed by someone who is judged competent in this sort of matters.

Once that's done then he can be charged if warranted and at that point he can be terminated from his employment.

Sure you could do it in a couple days since your sitting around doing nothing all day and have only the one this that you read in the paper pissing your off to deal with. Unfortunately, most other people have a job and those who's job it is to investigate this kind of thing when it happens have many demands on their time. There are union rules to navigate, and procedure so that the case isn't bungled because the officer's rights have been violated. Because when that happens, the case gets tossed out of court regardless of evidence.

What you are suggesting would be inside of a week tied up in so much red tape and appeals it would take years in the courts and more often than not fail at trial which then means the officer who has committed the crime now has a civil case against you and the justice system that has to be heard and since you never proved that he was guilty all the things you did, fired him, caused him to lose his house, car, cottage what ever, is now actionable. Not to mention that since you made these mistakes there are punitive damages considered as well because it's negligence not to do your job in a manner that abides the Charter rights. Which you violated.

So the victim doesn't get any award because you allowed the officer to walk and the officer gets a winfall again because you can't hold your water and have to rush ahead with judgement long before there is any due process.

Just how much do you think that would cost?



He can also taint the case by talking about it at work where all the cops are. The claim a mistrial and probably win one because witnesses were influenced.

Like a lot of people I don't have much use for the Charter of Rights, as is verified in this exact case- the victim spent a weekend in jail with a smashed in face before he even had his trial. It's very nice there are "Rights" for certain people (thugs").
 

CDNBear

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Like a lot of people I don't have much use for the Charter of Rights
Well, there's no way to take that the wrong way.

You may like North Korea or China better then North America JLM.

I for one like having some guaranteed rights.

I'd love to see the stats on just how many people have a problem with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms or the Bill of Rights.

I would suggest you stand in a minority with some pretty despotic character and ignorant people, with that mentality. But I bet your tune would change right quick, if anyone ever falsely accused you of a serious offence.
 

Avro

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Feb 12, 2007
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I think some of you are deliberately missing JLMs point. If the cop was put on desk duty he can be paid. He was suspended therefore he should not be on the payroll. He can apply for EI just like anyone else. Even in a union workplace if one gets suspended for wrongdoing they are not paid while waiting for a grievance to be processed. If they win the grievance they get backpay. If they loose , no cash.
In this case I don't think he has to wait for a trial, just an internal inquiry which does not take long. Doesn't mean he won't face a civil or even criminal trial later though.

Being a cop is a little different than working on the line at GM.....things happen.

If the officer is found guilty in a court then he should be fired.

It's pretty simple, I'll refer to the King case again, the public upon viewing the video thought they were guilty....courts said otherwise. Now how long did that case take again? Many ordinary folks would lose their homes in that time period.

JLM wants them punished before they are given their day in court....it's wrong.
 

JLM

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Well, there's no way to take that the wrong way.

You may like North Korea or China better then North America JLM.

I for one like having some guaranteed rights.

I'd love to see the stats on just how many people have a problem with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms or the Bill of Rights.

I would suggest you stand in a minority with some pretty despotic character and ignorant people, with that mentality. But I bet your tune would change right quick, if anyone ever falsely accused you of a serious offence.

I hear you it's just the Charter doesn't deliver the rights to the people who need and deserve them most. And it doesn't appear to cover all enterprizes.

When cops are being investigated for criminal activity eg. assault, impaired driving and corrupt activities, I think the onus should be on them to justify being paid (while being off duty). This would apply especially to cases where their activities have been caught on camera. Presently a thug (cop) in Kelowna is being paid after kicking a disabled man (who was complying with orders) in the face. The victim went to jail for the weekend, while the thug is being paid.

I just reread the O.P. and have to admit to being remiss. I've corrected it in red.
 

Unforgiven

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Like a lot of people I don't have much use for the Charter of Rights, as is verified in this exact case- the victim spent a weekend in jail with a smashed in face before he even had his trial. It's very nice there are "Rights" for certain people (thugs").

Oh no, that not quite right. His right have been violated and will come around in time. I would say that through the process, this cop who did this to him will lose everything he has ever worked for. The job is history, I would assume that no one in their right mind will hire him on after this and probably his family if he has one, will dump his ass to when he hits the bottle and rock bottom. He's going to lose his house over it and probably most if not all of his stuff. Once this is before a judge, after the criminal trial has ended, he won't have the police force and union to represent him in court. All the money will have to come out of his pocket.

The wheels of justice grind slowly but fine.

I am sure you would be all about the charter of rights if your's were violated by the police and you had a huge civil case against the police force. No I am sure there would be none of this man up business in that scenario.
 

Cannuck

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I would never advocate suspending an officer without pay for unsubstantiated whining from one complainant. Please don't put words in my mouth.

Without an investigation who's to say what is or isn't unsubstantiated. Should the RCMP just hire you to be the decider?

The simple fact, that you choose to ignore, is that video, in and of itself, is not proof of anything. Are you aware of what, if any, verbal exchange occurred between the the officer you wish to railroad and the person he "allegedly" assaulted.

I realize what you are saying but most of what you cite can be verified very quickly..

The same can be said for 90%+ of all crimes. That's not an excuse to deny people their day in court. If that is what you want, why don't you move somewhere with a dictatorship. I'm sure China can point you to some of his favorites.
 

lone wolf

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There are certain cops who continually draw the same complaints all the way through long careers of bouncing up and down in rank. I know of a 35 year veteran who's even won public honours - whose other side is the "Terminator".

What ever happened to the friendly cop on the beat?
 

JLM

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Without an investigation who's to say what is or isn't unsubstantiated. Should the RCMP just hire you to be the decider?

The simple fact, that you choose to ignore, is that video, in and of itself, is not proof of anything. Are you aware of what, if any, verbal exchange occurred between the the officer you wish to railroad and the person he "allegedly" assaulted.



The same can be said for 90%+ of all crimes. That's not an excuse to deny people their day in court. If that is what you want, why don't you move somewhere with a dictatorship. I'm sure China can point you to some of his favorites.

I guess we have to get a couple of things straight- I never said he shouldn't have his day in court, in fact I think he should. I don't care what verbal exchange took place, he could have called him a "Mother f'n pedophile" for all I care, the guy is mentally disabled and there was no reason to kick him in the face when he's down on his hands and knees. If that is the quality of person you are ready to accept and pay for being a cop that is your business. :smile:
 

Cannuck

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I don't care what verbal exchange took place, he could have called him a "Mother f'n pedophile" for all I care, the guy is mentally disabled and there was no reason to kick him in the face when he's down on his hands and knees.

You may or may not have all the facts. It's a good thing you aren't in control of our justice system.
 

Unforgiven

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I guess we have to get a couple of things straight- I never said he shouldn't have his day in court, in fact I think he should. I don't care what verbal exchange took place, he could have called him a "Mother f'n pedophile" for all I care, the guy is mentally disabled and there was no reason to kick him in the face when he's down on his hands and knees. If that is the quality of person you are ready to accept and pay for being a cop that is your business. :smile:

Why, can't mentally disabled people kill cops? Is suspect the cop is going to give his reason for kicking the guy in the face when he gets to court. I can't think of any but that doesn't mean there isn't a valid reason.
 

lone wolf

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You may or may not have all the facts. It's a good thing you aren't in control of our justice system.
One of the facts is the guy worked for the golf course and was using a bird-banger. Good community policing? Not. BTW - I can't get the TV news to link up (as if it matters - and links CAN be provided for that)