The Sad, Sad State of Canadian Masculinity

[Francis2004]

"Yukon, while I get what you're saying, and bringing Fonyo up for much deserved kudos is good, disregarding heroes unless all the heroes you like are also given their dues, would mean that no heroes are recognized."

Could not disagree with you more, karrie.

All I am asking is that Steve Fonyo be given the same recognition and the kudoes that have been showered upon Terry Fox.

Can anyone explain to me why Fox is a hero and Fonyo is a bum?"

Simple Yukon Jack..

Terry Fox died trying to help a cause.. He basically became a symbol of hope for many and in fact 'inspired" Steve Fonyo to do what he did 3 years after his death. Terry Fox NEVER saw the rewards of his efforts and never got any praise for his IDEA. He was the pioneer that took on this challenge and started what others took on after he did..

Steve Fonyo got the Officer of the Order of Canada in 1985. He got to see his reward and then will always be known for the following..

In later years he suffered from depression and faced legal difficulties due to various criminal charges, namely firearms offences, assault with a deadly weapon, fraud and theft, for which he ended up receiving a suspended sentence. He recovered and determined to get his life back on course. He studied mechanics at an early age as well as aircraft maintenance and as of 2008, was working as a mechanic in Surrey. Legal difficulties continue.

But most of all he was not the only disabled person to do move on and acheive hard work..

What about Rick Hansen ?

Rick Hansen did not get into all sorts of trouble after his "Man in Motion" tour and did a lot for disabled people worldwide. Perhaps the fact it was not about him was what made it so worthwhile..

Rick Hansen Foundation - Home

 

[JLM]

YJ your posts are getting silly. The statement I made above was just my own honest assessment. After Terry Fox, Steve Fonyo came across as a bit dim. This is a discussion forum not a court of law. You can agree or not. It makes no difference to me.
Terry Fox was dead for three years before Steve Fonyo came along. It wasn't Terry Fox's fault that Fonyo didn't get the reccognition that he felt he deserves. The whole country watched Terry Fox from Newfoundland to Thunder Bay. The whole country was heartbroken to learn that Fox's cancer was back and Fox was dying. How could anyone follow that? I don't think anyone could.

Perhaps there's not much to compare between the two men and people should just give each credit where credit is due and let it go at that.

 

[L Gilbert]

All those who didn't answer I guess failed and those who did sarcastically didn't know the rule.. It's just common sense..

Quit guessing. I spent many years securing areas. I was trying to be funny and was repeating what one of the people that taught me first aid constantly mentioned. :roll: Excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me.

BTW, the first thing we actually did when arriving at a scene was to park.

 

[Francis2004]

Quit guessing. I spent many years securing areas. I was trying to be funny and was repeating what one of the people that taught me first aid constantly mentioned. :roll: Excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me.

BTW, the first thing we actually did when arriving at a scene was to park.

Well actually if you really want to be technical, the first thing I would do is take the call or answer the emergency question. You need not go far ( drive ) for it to be happening. ;-)

But it still amazes me how many people go rushing into a situation that is hazardous.

 

[Cannuck]

The Red Cross are pussies.

 

[JLM]

The Red Cross are pussies.

When was the last time you delivered food, water and medical supplies to victims being pulled out of earthquake rubble?

 

[Spade]

When was the last time you delivered food, water and medical supplies to victims being pulled out of earthquake rubble?

Exactly, JLM. Cannuck's comment is below contempt!

 

[JLM]

Exactly, JLM. Cannuck's comment is below contempt!

I think he was probably joking (or at least what he thinks is joking)

 

[Zzarchov]

Just as a matter of information; Vince Li was six feet something tall and weighed over two hundred pounds. He had a hunting knife with an nine inch blade, and he was crazy as a loon. Lets all have a fight with this looney and he gets to keep his knife. Oh, and Li has already cut one person's head off, but that shouldn't dissuade anyone wanting to prove his mettle to look good to any lookers on. I don't have any gender, or macho related problems but even if I had a loaded 12 ga shotgun, I wouldn't go near an armed crazy unless it was absolutely necessary.

I should point out

No one is saying take him on after he killed the young man (except you who thinks police should have shot him to protect a dead lump of meat)

But it wasn't a quick death, and if Li had been restrained his victim may have lived and no one might have died.

 

[Cannuck]

When was the last time you delivered food, water and medical supplies to victims being pulled out of earthquake rubble?

Indeed!

 

[bobnoorduyn]

When we come into a "fight or flight" situation we fall back on instincts and training.

Don't forget to add personal experience, when something goes south we do what we're trained for, if it falls out of that realm we rely on experience, failing that we use instinct or judgement, (hopefully good judgement).

Society teaches us "do what they want and it increases the odds no one will get hurt". Thats from almost every cop and crime prevention seminar/course/announcement/program you want to name.

That is their default position, however, reality is a different thing. Police do not want us doing their job. Studies show that fighting back greatly increases your odds of survival, sure you might get hurt, but that's better than getting dead. Just think; do you want to rely on the good natured kindness of a criminal bent on doing you harm? Our well being is no concern of theirs. But it's a judgement call.

Most of us aren't trained to deal with a large man wielding a knife like Vince Li or someone carrying a gun like Marc Lepine .

The truth is Marc Lepine was in numerous ways, an exception to the rules, because he was batsh*t insane: he didn't want anything but to kill people. Who knew that though?

The first clue woud be the Ruger Mini 14 in a classroom, but anyway... True most of us aren't trained in any sort of self defense, let alone disarming someone with a rifle. This would fall under personal experience or judgement. Unfortuantely Canadian society has been brainwashed, especially since the late 70's, into an irrational fear of firearms. There's a difference between that and a healthy respect. Disarming a dweeb like Lepine wouldn't have been that hard given the opportunity and a rudimentary knowledge of firearms, and the element of surprise. We may never know if this opportunity presented itself because it may have been a very narrow window.

When something happens that is so far out in left field people do freeze, it takes time for the brain to assess the situation, and if no other solution comes up, the flight reflex takes over. And you're probably right, that kid was probably dead by the time anyone on the bus processed what was really going on.

I too have been made to study videos and transcripts of things that go wrong, (and some that go right). The thing is to learn from this and question yourself; What was done wrong? What as done right? What would I have done differently? It's not armchair quarterbacking, it's learning. This all goes into the training or personal experience bank so that if it happens to you you'll have a little something extra to draw on.

 

[ironsides]

The Red Cross usually provide's logistical support after the disaster.

 

[#juan]

I should point out

No one is saying take him on after he killed the young man (except you who thinks police should have shot him to protect a dead lump of meat)

But it wasn't a quick death, and if Li had been restrained his victim may have lived and no one might have died.

As usual you are posting gibberish. I said the police should have stopped Li from further mutilation of the body. If Li resisted and had to be shot, so be it.

You say it wasn't a quick death. Here is what one witness said:
Vicki said... There is no way that you would help. So don't pretend to be the admirable one here. The man had a hunting knife, and those things can be as large as 12 inches long. after the second or third stab, Tim was gone. It's not like those people just sat there and watched,
they ran off of the bus, fearing for their own lives. If someone tried to help, they likely would've died too. Its tragic, and horrible, but what if the people sitting in the seats accross from Tim were a mother and a young child? Would you want that mother to risk her life for someone who was already to far gone, while her child is defenseless? There's a world of possibilities, and "if's" and "but's" but you cant say that if someone was stabbing the person next to you, that you would stand up, and put throw yourself into the face of certain death. It's natural to value your own life over someone else's, thats just the way the human mind is. The first reaction to something like that, is to get out of the way of danger. What is really disgusting is that you have no sympathy for these people. Along with Tims family, these people will be traumatized for life. The children on the bus will likely have issues later on, because of the horrible thing's they've witnessed. It's incredibly arrogant and sickening for you to just look down on these people.

 

[Cannuck]

CTV.ca | Teens rescue mom, 3 kids from car sinking in ditch

"MEADOW LAKE, Sask. -- Three Saskatchewan teens are being hailed as heroes after rescuing a mother and three young children from a car that slid off a wet Saskatchewan highway into a water-filled ditch. RCMP say the young men, ages 18 and 19, didn't hesitate to jump into the icy water Saturday night after they saw the car sinking with four people inside.
The woman and all three kids, ages four to eight, were pulled to safety on a darkened secondary highway near Meadow Lake, Sask.
Police say the water was up to the car roof when they arrived on the scene and the young family escaped with only minor injuries.
So far, police have not released the names of any of those involved in the accident, including the rescuers.
But Sgt. Doug Coleman, an RCMP spokesman in Regina, says the quick-thinking actions of the three men likely saved lives in this case and their heroism may be formally acknowledged at some point."


Damned kids didn't follow the first rule of the Red Cross. They should lose their first aid certificates if they have them.

 

[karrie]

Does anyone know or have someone in their family who has received an award for heroism?

I have a father-in-law, a cousin, and a deceased uncle who have all been granted such awards for risking their own safety to help someone else (first aid rules be damned). Plus unsung heroes who have administered first aid or pulled people from rivers. That's part of my extreme objection to this thread. I know plenty of heroic Canadian men.

 

[#juan]

Does anyone know or have someone in their family who has received an award for heroism?

I have a father-in-law, a cousin, and a deceased uncle who have all been granted such awards for risking their own safety to help someone else (first aid rules be damned). Plus unsung heroes who have administered first aid or pulled people from rivers. That's part of my extreme objection to this thread. I know plenty of heroic Canadian men.

A few years back my brother received an award for pulling some people out of a lake after their boat sank. He didn't think he was a hero he just thought he was in the best position help the people.
My biggest objection to this thread is the stupid premise and the dopey generalization about Canadian masculinity. Lots of women have done heroic things and as far as I know, most of them were a tad short of testosterone or masculinity of any kind.

 

[Zzarchov]

Well Juan, you are just feeding into the problem.

Your life is not more valuable than someone elses. They may be almost gone, you may be about to die from getting involved.

Boo hoo. You also keep implying no one who is outraged would get involved.

I call shenannigans. You don't think you'd put yourself at risk to help others is what Im getting from this, ergo everyone else must be that way too.

Plenty of people aren't like that, they do put themselves at risk.

I've gone into a burning car to pull someone out, even if the "Correct" thing to do is wait for firemen to get there. Lots of people do the right thing when the time comes.


The problem is people start preaching and "Educating" to children that the "correct' and "normal" thing to do is save yourself.

and its disgusting.

 

[karrie]

The problem is people start preaching and "Educating" to children that the "correct' and "normal" thing to do is save yourself.

and its disgusting.

Have you caught all the posts in this thread where people have stated that they'd die for their kids? Part of that parental drive generally tends to teach our kids caution, and yeah, some people don't want to teach their kids to take a risk that might spell their death. That's a perfectly normal human drive... part of our evolutionary make-up. But as they come of age, they in turn decide for themselves who and how they'd like to be.

Personally I'll teach my kids that putting their necks on the line for other people is admirable. Being a hero is something to aspire to. But taking stupid risks in the name of such a stupid notion as 'masculinity' is ridiculous, and they need to decide for themselves what risks are worth taking. No one else gets to decide for them what risks they should have taken with their life.

 

[Francis2004]

Does anyone know or have someone in their family who has received an award for heroism?

I have a father-in-law, a cousin, and a deceased uncle who have all been granted such awards for risking their own safety to help someone else (first aid rules be damned). Plus unsung heroes who have administered first aid or pulled people from rivers. That's part of my extreme objection to this thread. I know plenty of heroic Canadian men.

With all due respect to those who have received award Karrie, why does it matter?

Yes I have used my First Aid several times and saved lives while "risking" mine to a limited extent without staying to receive the "Awards".

I would tend to believe many more people do not want the public attention then do. I much rather not want all the fuss but certainly have no objections to people knowing who I am.. I see no point in getting an award for doing what should come naturally to most people.

But I will be darn if I will be the daddy who does not come home for not following proper procedure and letting my guard down.. I don't have enough digits to count how many times I have come to peoples help but I can on one hand how many times others have come to mine.

 

[#juan]

Well Juan, you are just feeding into the problem.

Your life is not more valuable than someone elses. They may be almost gone, you may be about to die from getting involved.

Boo hoo. You also keep implying no one who is outraged would get involved.

I call shenannigans. You don't think you'd put yourself at risk to help others is what Im getting from this, ergo everyone else must be that way too.

Plenty of people aren't like that, they do put themselves at risk.

I've gone into a burning car to pull someone out, even if the "Correct" thing to do is wait for firemen to get there. Lots of people do the right thing when the time comes.


The problem is people start preaching and "Educating" to children that the "correct' and "normal" thing to do is save yourself.

and its disgusting.

What is the problem I'm supposedly feeding into?

My life is certainly more valuable than some looney who has just killed someone. Ask my family.

I'm sure there were leaders among the passengers who helped get the people off that bus and keep the crazy man in. That was the smartest thing they could do and they did it.

Unlike you, my manhood is not in question. Nor is Canadian masculinity in question.

It is unfortunate that the young victim was killed but according to witnesses, that happened before anyone knew what was going on. There was absolutely no reason for anyone to stay on the bus and try to subdue the maniac.