The discourse of people of Paradise and Hell

[Niflmir]

Lets see if even 3 things can be attributed to Satan, he was a liar and a murderer in that through him death entered Eden. You must have quite the book that excuses Satan of all those thing and propels him into being a saint.


So far the Garden didn't go according to plan and I don't think coming for the Gentiles (as well as Israel) was entirely expected until Christ allowed Himself to be bruised by Satan's kiss. That is 2-zip so far. You are backing the underdog already.


Go read about grace, your future might not be as bleak as you assume, my posts were just meant to assure you such places exist. What you don't know is that even that place gives up the ones sent there, for some reason you seem to have missed that point.

Satan? A liar? Surely you jest. The book I need is nothing other than the bible, as I have repeatedly shown in this thread.

It is the very book of genesis that proves your satan to be a teller of the truth. Eve says (Genesis 3:3) , "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die, And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."


Do they die? No. Do they learn of good and evil, yes, "the eyes of them both were opened." And if you believe the church, our present "playing god" like abilities in science are to blame for this.



Your beast of a god lies. The serpent tells the truth. The bible proves it.



You tell me to go and read about grace, but I say that it is you the ignorant one and I the knowledgeable one. Yes, 2-zip with Satan winning on the side of truth: they do not die, they become like gods. God curses them with a tortuous existence for not believing his lies. Your very misunderstanding of all of this is appalling, given your claim to know anything about it.



My posts are meant to assure you that if such a place exists (it doesn't), it is not you who would go there, follower of the evil one. If there is such justice at the end of the road, those that follow such a monster of a deity must surely meet this monster's own justice: their own demise and the demise of everything they love.

 

[El Barto]

I believe Satan in hebrew means the accuser, nothing more.
Niether good or evil.
But the funny thing about religion is that yesterdays Gods becomes todays devils.

 

[eanassir]

scientifically we suppose the universe to be that all powerfull thing that it must be. It is literally everthing, undivisable and eternal and all knowing. I don't suppose for a second that there can be any doubt about oneness. God the singularity.

The universe is not all-knowing: it obeys the rules that God - be glorified - inserted in the universe and nature.

There is the oneness of God and His singularity and He is Unique; but distinct from the created things.
The harmony in the systems of the universe indicates the One same God Who created all that.

 

[L Gilbert]

lol You're right about one thing there; the universe is not all-knowing. It is not sentient. Some people like to anthropomorhize it but that's a natural thing for people to do. Also a natural behavior is to attribute stuff they cannot comprehend to the activites of imaginary beings.

 

[MHz]

I believe Satan in hebrew means the accuser, nothing more.
Niether good or evil.

I believe Satan in Heaven means one very angry angel who fell from the highest office an angel can hold because of some furry little creature that didn't even know the difference between Good and Evil. The least in Heaven granted dominion over somebody while the grates and the most beautiful get nothing but move servitude that now includes even these ......men.

Anyway, that's a bit about where he's coming from so when he say glad to meet you what's for supper he actually means everybody named Watts is going to be supper, his supper. He doesn't like us, then or now.

 

[MHz]

Do they die?

Bring them forward so they can speak for themselves, if that cannot be done then they are dead.

Quoting darkbeaver scientifically we suppose the universe to be that all powerfull thing that it must be. It is literally everthing, undivisable and eternal and all knowing. I don't suppose for a second that there can be any doubt about oneness. God the singularity.

God is singular but he is from ourside what we call heaven, if all our univese came from one point them it was a lump in God's hands and it was Him alone that caused it to spark into being. When all those sparks become cold what happens, does it then start to shrink for a rerun or does it just become part of the city of God. this is how the Bible answers it. Both this earth and our heaven is said to come to an end. In the new earth that is eternal the old heavens (what we can and canot yet see above is part of the new earth, the former Angelic world become ours and it will take a very long time to turn it into Edens. Angels inherit another Heaven. The only thing bigger than our universe is a multi-verse, that would be their new realm. Sorry no verses as it would......

 

[eanassir]

How can you possibly look at the real world around you and think any of that is true?

On the contrary, I tell you: the heart that does not know God is dark, until it gets out of the darkness of ignorance and atheism and associating others with God -- to the light of faith, and devoting to God alone without associate.

How can you go daily without resorting to God and referring to Him in your daily life and everything that faces you? But to us: in God we trust; on Him we rely and depend.

That's not even consistent with the book you set such store by, it contains multiple descriptions of the horrible fates that await people like me who've used our presumably--at least in your terms--god-given gifts of reason and intelligence to challenge its claims when they don't make sense in light of modern knowledge.

Such fear and hope are the motives for the created being; so that he will avoid the evil and progress toward the good.

And this terrifying and warning of the punishment is not to you only, but is to all people, genies and angels and prophets and Jesus and Moses and Mohammed. The most honored of them is the most God-fearing among them.

Allah in the Quran often appears as exactly the same savage, merciless old troll who appears in the Old Testament, and I have nothing but contempt for both of them. They are among the nastiest characters in all of fiction.

Glory be to God!
God is the same God (Yahweh or Allah): the Lord of all nations and the past and present generations.

He is Most Merciful and Most Gracious Who bestowed on people His various blessings and grace and bounties, to which most poeple deny and are ungrateful.

Although the Torah (most of it included in the Old Testament) had been distorted and the original had been lost, and the present is the Torah of Ezra who re-wrote it following their return from the captivity of Babylon --> which led to the enhancing of the anti-religion party and the atheism; but tell me where in the Quran - as you claim - God is not Merciful ?

 

[L Gilbert]

lol
Actually, it is the "heart" that doesn't accept gods n gremlins that is not afraid of the dark or the light. Dark is simply the absence of light and does not contain boogeymen.
Metaphorically speaking, those who believe in spite of contradicting evidence available around them (or the complete lack of evidence supporting their belief) are those that are in the dark.

 

[darkbeaver]

DB, God - be glorified - is not the father of the matter, neither is the matter His son or daughter. God is the Creator, and the universe is the created.

If anyone makes an electric set for example, will the set be his son?

I agree god is the creator. What then did god not create? Whenever we assemble truth from the substance of god we are allowed further illumination/awareness of a higher manifestation or aspect of creation/universe/god. God, is at once the creator and the created it would seem to me. I'm told that god is eternally vigilant and occupied with the business of her creation always in motion dynamic evolveing building here destroying there shuffling the mass from here to there where it coagulates into stars planets and all the other chunks.
You are a defiant, stubborn, handsome, intelligent man , are you sure you're not catholic? No matter, the righteous can never be wrong but still regularly perish before term. We all require an anchor a frame of reference when we contemplate all creation. They knew if we would quarrel they could hide in the confusion so they burdened us with differing perspectives of god the one and made us babble in diverse tongues, always they drive in the wedges, if they slacken we will come together and that harmony will destroy them.
If god has created everything ,as described in various tomes, then god must be that everything and then some, which would mean god is more complex than his creation the universe, how then can any of us help but know anything but a tiny insignifigant fragment of the whole? Anyone who's experiance of god does not grow and change constantly is already dead in the important ways. We are ordered to grow and change, I am not in the least satisfied with the various old handbooks of creation which have all become stone idols. In reality none of us knows anything of god or the universe except the weakest of rumours.
Religion is a static thing in a dynamic place already it has no where to go but away. We are adding nothing to one of the oldest of mankinds debates simply because there is nothing further to add and there hasn't been anything else to add for ten or fifteen thousand years, if ever. In my tiny near worthless opinion all the books of god are actually meant to obscure the truth about god. Now there is the hand of Satan.
The sun came back the birds and bugs came back the breeze is sweet and warm and south west and all the grass and trees are green. The universe loves me this I know you in your small corner and me in mine.

 

[darkbeaver]

The universe is not all-knowing: it obeys the rules that God - be glorified - inserted in the universe and nature.

There is the oneness of God and His singularity and He is Unique; but distinct from the created things.
The harmony in the systems of the universe indicates the One same God Who created all that.

Nothing can be added or subtracted from the universe. The universe is everything all matter all mass all energy all ideas all truth all beauty, that's omnipotence that's god. You will have to give the right answers to enter the hearafter in your earthly cloths I guess, if not you will be a radish or a tree, still in parradise but at the same reduced level of awareness you habituated here on earth while guys like me lie down beside cool waters and take instruction from tall viking ladies on the next part of the experiance. I hope. Who can discuss anything about his omnipotence/god and expect to be believed in light of the near infinite differential of scale , I mean really it is the apex of conciet to suppose we know anything at all about the universe or god. Maybe the only thing we do know with certainty is that we know practically nothing and that state won't change much should we live another ten million years, as fast as we evolve it evolves millions of times faster, we can never catch up to god or the universe.

 

[eanassir]

This reply of DB includes much truth, but on the other hand there may be some major ideas that are not true, in addition to some obscurity and some beautiful poetry like description.​

The important idea that is not true is that God is the same the universe, and the creation is the Creator and the Creator is the creation.

While God is Distinct from the material and the ethereal spiritual world, as in the following Quranic aya 39: 62 (and some other ayat).

I agree god is the creator. What then did god not create?

God is the Creator of every thing in the universe.

This is in the Quran 39: 62​

اللَّهُ خَالِقُ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ وَهُوَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ وَكِيلٌ​

The explanation:
(God is the Creator of every [material and ethereal] thing,
and He is the Guardian over [the provision of] every [living] thing [till death].)​

God, is at once the creator and the created it would seem to me.

God is the Creator of everything, how can it be the created at the same time?

are you sure you're not catholic?

I am not catholic; I follow the doctrine of Prophet Abraham who was a monotheist: devoted to God alone, and was against the idolatry.

We all require an anchor a frame of reference when we contemplate all creation.

Here is the truth.

They knew if we would quarrel they could hide in the confusion so they burdened us with differing perspectives of god the one and made us babble in diverse tongues, always they drive in the wedges, if they slacken we will come together and that harmony will destroy them.

Here is the ambiguity: who are they? If this means the impostor religious leaders and the devils à This is true.

If god has created everything ,as described in various tomes, then god must be that everything and then some

Here is the idea that is not true;
"If god has created everything ,as described in various tomes, then god must be that everything" No, God is not necessarily "that everything".

how then can any of us help but know anything but a tiny insignifigant fragment of the whole?

Here is the truth.

Anyone who's experiance of god does not grow and change constantly is already dead in the important ways.

We may know and increase our knowledge (this knowledge is offered by God Himself): only about the work of God and some of His marvelous wisdom; but we cannot grasp all His wisdom: this is impossible, as is it impossible to know the essence of God Himself; Glory be to God Almighty.

We are ordered to grow and change, I am not in the least satisfied with the various old handbooks of creation which have all become stone idols.

The Book of Genesis is distorted; the Quran is intact. The interpretation of the Quran is actually not accepted by most of the rigid Muslims.

In reality none of us knows anything of god or the universe except the weakest of rumours.

Here is the truth.

Religion is a static thing in a dynamic place already it has no where to go but away.

The false religion: the religion of falsehood, idolatry and association will certainly go away.
God's religion will remain.

We are adding nothing to one of the oldest of mankinds debates simply because there is nothing further to add and there hasn't been anything else to add for ten or fifteen thousand years, if ever.

I think this is true.

all the books of god are actually meant to obscure the truth about god. Now there is the hand of Satan.

The revealed Torah of God, Gospel of God and the Quran of God meant to illuminate the mind with the light of God's guidance to serve God alone without associate or son. And to guide him so that he may not slip to any confused idea: almost such ideas are the association of some other beings together with God.

The sun came back the birds and bugs came back the breeze is sweet and warm and south west and all the grass and trees are green. The universe loves me this I know you in your small corner and me in mine.

Here is the poetry :smile:

 

[Niflmir]

You have to pick your points more carefully, Eanassir. With Darkbeaver you are essentially arguing against Spinoza's god. If you pick apart his every sentence you are simply trying to strawman him to death.

 

[L Gilbert]

I wouldn't worry about it, N. I think DB is just baiting him.

 

[Niflmir]

I wanted to put tl;dr but figured I would elaborate.

 

[eanassir]

You have to pick your points more carefully, Eanassir. With Darkbeaver you are essentially arguing against Spinoza's god. If you pick apart his every sentence you are simply trying to strawman him to death.

Darkbeaver is not Spinoza, and Spinoza is not Darkbeaver :lol:

Spinoza speaks about pantheism, which is wrong in fact; but Spinoza did not speak about the electrical universe, which is an enthusiasm about electricity :smile:

What do you say DB?

 

[eanassir]

The quarrelling of the people of Hell
God – be glorified – said in the Quran 38: 59-68​

هَذَا فَوْجٌ مُّقْتَحِمٌ مَّعَكُمْ لَا مَرْحَبًا بِهِمْ إِنَّهُمْ صَالُوا النَّارِ . قَالُوا بَلْ أَنتُمْ لَا مَرْحَبًا بِكُمْ أَنتُمْ قَدَّمْتُمُوهُ لَنَا فَبِئْسَ الْقَرَارُ . قَالُوا رَبَّنَا مَن قَدَّمَ لَنَا هَذَا فَزِدْهُ عَذَابًا ضِعْفًا فِي النَّارِ . وَقَالُوا مَا لَنَا لَا نَرَى رِجَالًا كُنَّا نَعُدُّهُم مِّنَ الْأَشْرَارِ . أَتَّخَذْنَاهُمْ سِخْرِيًّا أَمْ زَاغَتْ عَنْهُمُ الْأَبْصَارُ. إِنَّ ذَلِكَ لَحَقٌّ تَخَاصُمُ أَهْلِ النَّارِ . قُلْ إِنَّمَا أَنَا مُنذِرٌ وَمَا مِنْ إِلَهٍ إِلَّا اللَّهُ الْوَاحِدُ الْقَهَّارُ . رَبُّ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا الْعَزِيزُ الْغَفَّارُ .​

The explanation:
>> (This is a troop rushing in [to the fire] with you;
>> [they will say]: "There is no welcome for them; they will burn in the fire."

>> [The followers will] say [to their leaders]: "No, it is you have no welcome; you forwarded it for us, so let evil be your settlement [in the fire.]"

>> [The followers will] say: "Our Lord, whoso forwarded this [torment], give him a double chastisement in the fire."

>> [The followers, while being in the fire, will] say: "How is it with us, that we [now] do not see men that we [in the World] considered among the wicked?"

"Have we subjected them to our service [in the World], or have our eye-sights missed them!?"

Surely it is true that the people of the fire will quarrel.

Say [O Mohammed]: "I am only [sent] to warn [you from worshipping idols and others]; there is not any god but God: the One, the Dominant."

"The Lord, of the heavens and the earth and [all] that is between them; the All-Mighty, the All-Forgiving."

Say: "[The punishment in the Fire] is a greatly important tidings [about which I have told you.]"

From which you [: the Meccans who unbelieve] are turning away from it [in aversion.])
​

 

[eanassir]

The quarrelling of the people of Hell
God – be glorified – said in the Quran 38: 59-68​

هَذَا فَوْجٌ مُّقْتَحِمٌ مَّعَكُمْ لَا مَرْحَبًا بِهِمْ إِنَّهُمْ صَالُوا النَّارِ . قَالُوا بَلْ أَنتُمْ لَا مَرْحَبًا بِكُمْ أَنتُمْ قَدَّمْتُمُوهُ لَنَا فَبِئْسَ الْقَرَارُ . قَالُوا رَبَّنَا مَن قَدَّمَ لَنَا هَذَا فَزِدْهُ عَذَابًا ضِعْفًا فِي النَّارِ . وَقَالُوا مَا لَنَا لَا نَرَى رِجَالًا كُنَّا نَعُدُّهُم مِّنَ الْأَشْرَارِ . أَتَّخَذْنَاهُمْ سِخْرِيًّا أَمْ زَاغَتْ عَنْهُمُ الْأَبْصَارُ. إِنَّ ذَلِكَ لَحَقٌّ تَخَاصُمُ أَهْلِ النَّارِ . قُلْ إِنَّمَا أَنَا مُنذِرٌ وَمَا مِنْ إِلَهٍ إِلَّا اللَّهُ الْوَاحِدُ الْقَهَّارُ . رَبُّ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا الْعَزِيزُ الْغَفَّارُ .​

The explanation:
>> (This is a troop rushing in [to the fire] with you;
>> [they will say]: "There is no welcome for them; they will burn in the fire."

>> [The followers will] say [to their leaders]: "No, it is you have no welcome; you forwarded it for us, so let evil be your settlement [in the fire.]"

>> [The followers will] say: "Our Lord, whoso forwarded this [torment], give him a double chastisement in the fire."

>> [The followers, while being in the fire, will] say: "How is it with us, that we [now] do not see men that we [in the World] considered among the wicked?"

"Have we subjected them to our service [in the World], or have our eye-sights missed them!?"

Surely it is true that the people of the fire will quarrel.

Say [O Mohammed]: "I am only [sent] to warn [you from worshipping idols and others]; there is not any god but God: the One, the Dominant."

"The Lord, of the heavens and the earth and [all] that is between them; the All-Mighty, the All-Forgiving."

Say: "[The punishment in the Fire] is a greatly important tidings [about which I have told you.]"

From which you [: the Meccans who unbelieve] are turning away from it [in aversion.])
​

 

[eanassir]

Hollow words without inspiration.

"My God is the Creator; who is your god ?"

These are not hollwo words; it is your words that are only the assertion of the atheist.

God is the Creator: no god [to be worshipped] in the entire universe but He alone without associate or equal.

God is the Lord of all nations.

But I asked him this question for the following reason:

Many guys here attack God, and you don't know what god do they worship: Yahweh, God Almighty, Jesus Christ, Allah or other names or other gods or idols: may be Lucifer, demons, idols ...etc; so they will come and revile God the Creator and Almighty and Most Gracious Who is the God of all nations and worlds.

Yahweh, Allah and God are synonyms of the Creator in Hebrew, Arabic and English; but evenso some Hebrew will dare revile Allah or God claiming that Yahweh is their special God not Allah or God.

Therefore, my question was directed to know this reviler who he is.

Moreover, many atheists here do not believe in God the Creator.

In addition, Christians think that God is Jesus and Jesus is God that was encarnated, and no difference between Jesus and God Almighty or the Creator.

For this reason, I said to him: My God is the Creator; who is your god ?

Your god shows all of the superstitions and ignorance of the people who wrote the Quran, it certainly does not show the knowledge and security of mind that would befit a true creator of a universe.
Your god is not more just, it is not more knowledgeable, it is not more understanding.
It is as pathetic in attitude and belief as the authors of the Quran which elaborates this god to people.

To this claims, you have no proof other than your background impression, which is not any true; give your evidence point by point and do not give general idea and run away.

You are ignorant about the Quran, and I see you belong to some sect, and in addition to your atheism, you retain some of your people rancor and imagination about the Quran which is not true.

In addition, some people belonging to some religious sect [like Jews for example], adopt this attitude to oppose all religions, when in fact their purpose is to oppose the Islam and Jesus teachings --> so they pretend they are against all religions when in fact their purpose is to oppose Mohammed's and Jesus teachings.

Therefore, the communist parties in the Arab countries: their leaders and founders were among the religious minorities who took this way to fight the Islam, and when one asks them, they say: we do not believe in any religion; when in fact they fight and oppose the Islam religion.

And your quotes are the ones which show this to be the case. There is nothing enlightening about those words. They are the tired threats and empty promises of superstitious people.

And your words are like one cheating himself and others with false hopes that he will live happily in this life, and there is no afterlife, and like the ostrich which insert her head in the sand to avoid some situation, or like the drunken who drinks wine in order to forget about some difficult situation when his drinking will not solve any of his situations.

Here what the threat of hell sounds like to me:
"If you do not worship our god, our god will beat you with a stick until you die. You should worship our god because he is a depressed and insecure god who does not take his antidepressants. If you do not worship our god then it is your fault when he beats you to death because you now know that he is a crazy, insecure god."

These words are only your words, and are some fallacy and not scientific or logical; there is nothing as our god: God the Creator is the Lord of all nations and all poeples. God is All-Wise and Most Merciful, and all these are lies; out of His mercy, he lets you speak and eat whatever you like, and does not punish the disbeliever and atheist immediately.

On the contrary, the Glorious Quran invites people to every good and forbids every evil, and commands worshipping God alone without associate or equal or patron; and to believe in all the apostles including Mohammed, and to believe in all the heavenly books including the Quran.

 

[mt_pockets1000]

The Quran is right, God is one. The previous solar systems?

Dear Brian

I show your post about the synthetic apperture radar interferogram in L'Aquila earthquake where you state: "I'm pretty sure this data shows the Earth growing. However they only provide two numbers (2.8 centimeters and 25 centimeters) and no vectors. Movement, but to where? It would be interesting if they told us what the interferogram data shows:"

Well, if you look carefully in the Science Daily post, which reads: "Each fringe of the interferogram, corresponding to a colour cycle, is equivalent to an Earth surface displacement of 2.8 cm along the satellite direction (the bold letters is by S.T.)." it is clear that this is vertical movement, i.e., uplift.

Now, since there are ~9 fringes, and each fringe represents 2.8 cm along the satellite direction, the total displacement-uplift at the center of a ~26 km by ~13 km dome is ~25 cm, which corresponds to a volume of ~3.3x10^7 m^3 or ~10^11 kg of Excess Mass. So here is your measured earth growth; and this is not theory. It is hard-core modern technology data.

dynosaurs were crushed by gravity
Oil Is Mastery

Ya, but it's not going anywhere. It's held there by the magnetic flux.

 

[mt_pockets1000]

The number seven is universally afforded arcane signifigance.
Matter is conducted into the sun from surrounding space then to the planets each in turn from the previous, the mass of the solar system is variable as is each particle in it. In this way the orbits are regulated. It's a good thing we were spared six times to repopulate the solar system, maybe seven is a lucky number. It would be interesting to know how many planets our solar system has had in the past.

God is , all powerfull, all knowing and eternal. I am struck by the similarities in god and the universe. Maybe Allah wears a coat of stars.

Is He one and the same?