Shame on Canada! re: Propaganda and Canada's Support of Ethnic Cleansing.

[tracy]

But, to answer your question, no I don't think it's right for children to be malnourished.

As I said, my problem with your post is that I don't see why Egypt gets off the hook. They are as guilty as Israel of causing malnourishment in Gaza.

Perhaps this was too easy to miss in my post Earth_as_one, so I've clipped it out and put it in bold for you.

Your response still ignored the obvious question: if it's about borders being closed why isn't Egypt a target? Egypt has its reasons for keeping the border closed I'm sure, but so does Israel. One being targetted over the other should tell you something. Egypt is stopping Palestinians from fleeing. I can't recall any war in which people fled TO their enemies rather than away from them. I can't imagine any reason for them fleeing into Israel instead of to a fellow muslim/arab nation.

 

[Just the Facts]

But I am also aware that for most nations where this happens, the country recognizes its a problem and at least claim they are trying to reduce and eliminate it.

Exactly. Unlike in Gaza.

Defense official: Fresh Hamas strikes will be met with even greater force - Haaretz - Israel News

Hamas is intentionally harming humanitarian aid transferred from Israel by firing mortars at the Karni, Kissufim and Kerem Shalom crossings, the IDF liaison office for Gaza said. Palestinians fired eight mortar shells from central Gaza on Tuesday and the Israel Air Force responded to the shelling. Military sources said a harsh aerial response can be expected if the cross-border attacks continue. The Palestinians also fired light weapons into Israel on Tuesday near the Kissufim crossing and also set off an explosive charge.

Hamas, Fatah bicker following Gaza operation | Middle East | Jerusalem Post

A Fatah official said that on Monday night alone, Hamas gunmen intercepted 12 trucks loaded with humanitarian aid that had been donated by the Jordanian government to Palestinians in Gaza. The trucks were on their way to UNRWA headquarters when Hamas gunmen stopped them and confiscated their contents. Jordanian authorities confirmed on Tuesday that Hamas gunmen had seized the trucks shortly after they entered Gaza through the Kerem Shalom border crossing. Last week Fatah activists and eyewitnesses claimed that Hamas had confiscated fuel and food that was en route to hospitals and schools housing thousands of Palestinians.


But I'm sure that's all Israel's fault.

 

[lone wolf]

Now ... if Israel targeted Hamas instead of terrorizing citizens to the point where they (the citizens) put themselves at risk in challenging Hamas would the results have been a bit more successful?

 

[darkbeaver]

Exactly. Unlike in Gaza.

Defense official: Fresh Hamas strikes will be met with even greater force - Haaretz - Israel News

Hamas is intentionally harming humanitarian aid transferred from Israel by firing mortars at the Karni, Kissufim and Kerem Shalom crossings, the IDF liaison office for Gaza said. Palestinians fired eight mortar shells from central Gaza on Tuesday and the Israel Air Force responded to the shelling. Military sources said a harsh aerial response can be expected if the cross-border attacks continue. The Palestinians also fired light weapons into Israel on Tuesday near the Kissufim crossing and also set off an explosive charge.

Hamas, Fatah bicker following Gaza operation | Middle East | Jerusalem Post

A Fatah official said that on Monday night alone, Hamas gunmen intercepted 12 trucks loaded with humanitarian aid that had been donated by the Jordanian government to Palestinians in Gaza. The trucks were on their way to UNRWA headquarters when Hamas gunmen stopped them and confiscated their contents. Jordanian authorities confirmed on Tuesday that Hamas gunmen had seized the trucks shortly after they entered Gaza through the Kerem Shalom border crossing. Last week Fatah activists and eyewitnesses claimed that Hamas had confiscated fuel and food that was en route to hospitals and schools housing thousands of Palestinians.


But I'm sure that's all Israel's fault.

Hamas? Aren't they the democratically elected government? I wonder what they think they're doing trying to coordinate relief against Israels orders? Jordanian authorities are what, couple hundered bucks a dozen?

 

[earth_as_one]

Tracy: Is it a war crime to use food and medicine as a weapon to malnourish 1.5 million innocent civilians?

Does bombing and shelling a city where the civilains can neither hide or flee killing about 1500 people in response to rocket attacks which caused minor property damage a proportional response?

Perhaps this was too easy to miss in my post Earth_as_one, so I've clipped it out and put it in bold for you.

Your response still ignored the obvious question: if it's about borders being closed why isn't Egypt a target? Egypt has its reasons for keeping the border closed I'm sure, but so does Israel. One being targetted over the other should tell you something. Egypt is stopping Palestinians from fleeing. I can't recall any war in which people fled TO their enemies rather than away from them. I can't imagine any reason for them fleeing into Israel instead of to a fellow muslim/arab nation.

I did answer your question regarding Egypt:

CAIRO (AFP)--President Hosni Mubarak Tuesday ruled out reopening Egypt's border with Gaza until representatives of the Palestinian Authority and European Union observers are deployed at the crossing point.

Mubarak also hit back at critics of Cairo's response to the Israeli offensive, accusing them of playing politics with Palestinian suffering.

"We in Egypt are not going to contribute to perpetuating the rift (between the Palestinian Authority of Mahmoud Abbas and Gaza's Hamas rulers) by opening the Rafah crossing in the absence of the Palestinian Authority and E.U. observers in violation of the 2005 deal," Mubarak said in a televised speech.

He was referring to an international agreement which Abbas signed with Israel when it withdrew its troops and settlers from Gaza in 2005.

The deal provided for E.U. observers to monitor the border and operate surveillance cameras to allow Israel to keep an eye on comings and goings.

It fell into abeyance when Hamas ousted forces loyal to Abbas from the Gaza Strip in June last year.

Egypt has come in for strong criticism from the Islamists and their sympathizers around the Muslim world for not fully opening the border in the face of Israel's devastating four-day-old air blitz.

Mubarak held talks with Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni just two days before the start of the offensive, sparking charges of collusion that have seen Egyptian diplomatic missions attacked in both Beirut and the Yemeni port city of Aden....

UPDATE: Egypt President: Gaza Border Closed Until Abbas In Control
....
eao
Sure Mubarak could have opened the border. It would have meant violating agreements with Fatah and their treaty with Israel. That he didn't speaks volumes about Abbas and Mubarak. Both of these people are owned by Israel.

Abbas fought a civil war with democratically elected Hamas. He won control of the West Bank, but lost in Gaza. Abbas has no love for Hamas and if he doesn't obey his Israeli masters, they'll take away his money, power and likely face assassination. For Abbas, its a choice between gold or lead.

Mubarak relies on billions in American military and economic support to maintain his iron grip on Egypt. If he breaks his treaty with Israel the bribe money from the US stops. As a result Mubarak does as he's told regarding Gaza. For Mubarak its a choice between remaining in power or facing civil war if his military might weakens.

Mubarak is as guilty of crimes against humanity as Israel's leaders. There is also another agenda. If Mubarak did open the border and allow the civilians to leave, what would Israel do to Gaza? Would it become another part of Palestine ethnically cleansed of Palestinians?

 

[Colpy]

I did answer your question regarding Egypt:


Mubarak is as guilty of crimes against humanity as Israel's leaders. There is also another agenda. If Mubarak did open the border and allow the civilians to leave, what would Israel do to Gaza? Would it become another part of Palestine ethnically cleansed of Palestinians?

Oh Bull****.

First of all, it is not a "crime against humanity" to keep your borders closed....no sovereign country has any responsibility in the legal sense to allow people they don't want inside their country...full stop.

Secondly, Mubarak is no fool. He has enough problems with Islamic radicals in his own country, opening the borderwould simply exacerbate that.....by giving free access to Hamas and other radicasl groups in Gaza.

Mubarak is keeping the border closed for two reasons: first, and most importantly, self-interest as outlined above. As King Hussein of Jordan realized back in the 70s, the Palestinian radical groups are a wildly destabilizing influence, a threat to any nation that encompasses them......just ask Lebanon.....

Secondly, the Palestinians are so much more useful as a thorn in Israel's side....no one has abused the population of Gaza and the West Bank more than their Arab (and Persian) "brothers".

In short, Mubarak doesn't give a rat's ass what happens to the Palestinian people. Neither does the rest of the Arab "street". And especially, neither do the Iranians.

I

 

[tracy]

Earth as one, you've told me why Egypt won't open it's borders. You haven't told me why Hamas doesn't attack them, but only attacks Israel. If the issue was borders, they'd have other targets. Yet, they ignore those others completely. That's because the issue isn't borders.

I don't put much value in the porportional response argument either. I can't imagine they could have any response that would be seen as porportional, but I don't think they have to. It doesn't matter that Hamas wasn't all that successful at killing Israelis, they were giving it their best shot. That means they are open to being attacked.

As far as I know Israel has no obligation to open its borders. I don't believe it's a war crime to stop people from entering or leaving your country, but I'm not a lawyer. There are a lot of things that are wrong without necessarily being a war crime though. Regardless of the legal definition I think it's always wrong to block humanitarian aide from reaching those who need it.

 

[Just the Facts]

Hamas? Aren't they the democratically elected government?

No. They're the democratically elected parliamentary majority. They took over the Presidential role by force. The President's office is responsible for security and "foreign affairs". They seized that office by coup. Notice it wasn't a Coup d'etat, as there is no etat to coup d'. :lol:

 

[einmensch]

I like the way you Zz and Colpy disappear when you are asked to support your opinions or lack of knowledge and then pop up as if we are on to a new subject and you. Part of the policy?

Like most invaders the Israeli invaders time is running out. The Zionist lies over the last 60+are being exposed by facts. And Zionist deny the facts and their unfounded claims are becoming a joke. Yes many people still believe Zionists but fewer and fewer. Keep up the good work. Israel needs your support more than ever.

 

[Trex]

Reading through the posts on this forum about Israel, its obvious that many people here have common misperceptions based on Zionist propaganda, not objective facts.

Zionism
Zionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even people who recognize atrocities when they see them are not fully aware of how pervasive Zionist propaganda has become in our perceptions regarding Israel.


Canada plays an active role helping Israel kill thousands and oppress and imprison millions. All Canadians should have a problem with that. I hope that Canadians of good conscience will make themselves aware of the facts in this conflict and speak out.

..............................................................................................
In the interests of brevity I deleted a chunk of the above.

I find this thread starter both warped and slightly pathetic.
The undisputed leader of cut'n'paste propaganda starts a thread criticizing forum dwellers for being susceptible to propaganda.

Another massive cut'n'paste anti-Jooo screed then follows.
I suspect the irony is completely lost on the poster.

I give virtually all my fellow forum dwellers full credit for understanding that all nations or states engaged in conflict spin out propaganda as fast as is possible.
To assume that either Fox News or Al Jazeera are not slightly biased is naive in the extreme.

What to make of a poster who only posts as far as I can tell on one topic.
Hatred of Jooo's and the unbending commitment to the destruction of Israel.

That it takes two sides to fight or argue.
That it is possible for both sides to be wrong.
That opposing sides of a conflict can be flawed or unfair.
That atrocity's and evil committed by one side could be mirrored by the other.
That almost by definition both sides in a fight must use propaganda.
If you are a disseminator in propaganda yourself then I posit that you can only ever accept one position.
Your own.
Then there cannot ever be two sides.
It seems kind of one dimensional to me.

When a person who's cause is simply to disseminate propaganda it makes them by definition incapable of debate.
They are doing a job, not having a conversation.
That is why people who attempt to rebut these screeds simply find the response to be yet more cut'n'paste.
There is zero critical thinking involved is understood.
You just plaster down more of someone Else's rhetoric.

I am not opposed to debate on Israel.
I am opposed to someone who's true skill appears to be constant use of the right mouse button insinuating that my fellow forum dwellers are uninformed, deluded or plain ignorant of an issue.
Perhaps you should speak for yourself and not others.
Shame on you, I say.

Perhaps the mods should create two new forums.

1) Why I hate the Jooo's and why they must be eliminated.
2) Muslims and why their barbaric ways must be contained.

At least then we could keep the racist propaganda bottled up in one spot.

Just a thought.

Trex

 

[Cannuck]

Perhaps the mods should create two new forums.

1) Why I hate the Jooo's and why they must be eliminated.
2) Muslims and why their barbaric ways must be contained.

At least then we could keep the racist propaganda bottled up in one spot.

I'll 2nd that.

 

[earth_as_one]

..............................................................................................
In the interests of brevity I deleted a chunk of the above.

I find this thread starter both warped and slightly pathetic.
The undisputed leader of cut'n'paste propaganda starts a thread criticizing forum dwellers for being susceptible to propaganda.

Another massive cut'n'paste anti-Jooo screed then follows.
I suspect the irony is completely lost on the poster.

I give virtually all my fellow forum dwellers full credit for understanding that all nations or states engaged in conflict spin out propaganda as fast as is possible.
To assume that either Fox News or Al Jazeera are not slightly biased is naive in the extreme.

What to make of a poster who only posts as far as I can tell on one topic.
Hatred of Jooo's and the unbending commitment to the destruction of Israel.

That it takes two sides to fight or argue.
That it is possible for both sides to be wrong.
That opposing sides of a conflict can be flawed or unfair.
That atrocity's and evil committed by one side could be mirrored by the other.
That almost by definition both sides in a fight must use propaganda.
If you are a disseminator in propaganda yourself then I posit that you can only ever accept one position.
Your own.
Then there cannot ever be two sides.
It seems kind of one dimensional to me.

When a person who's cause is simply to disseminate propaganda it makes them by definition incapable of debate.
They are doing a job, not having a conversation.
That is why people who attempt to rebut these screeds simply find the response to be yet more cut'n'paste.
There is zero critical thinking involved is understood.
You just plaster down more of someone Else's rhetoric.

I am not opposed to debate on Israel.
I am opposed to someone who's true skill appears to be constant use of the right mouse button insinuating that my fellow forum dwellers are uninformed, deluded or plain ignorant of an issue.
Perhaps you should speak for yourself and not others.
Shame on you, I say.

Perhaps the mods should create two new forums.

1) Why I hate the Jooo's and why they must be eliminated.
2) Muslims and why their barbaric ways must be contained.

At least then we could keep the racist propaganda bottled up in one spot.

Just a thought.

Trex

I see this issue as one that is will eventually lead to WW III. I don't want Canada to get involved, help people who war crimes or crimes against humanity.

I am disturbed that Canada's leaders and our news media have come out on side of people who commit war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Regarding your personal attack against me which probably violates forum rules. That's play number 7 from the Israeli propaganda play book:

7) The last refuge…. When all else fails, point to a few examples of outrageous anti-Semitism, generalize them, suggesting that that is what motivates critics. It stings, and may be over-used, but it can silence or put critics on the defensive.

I back up my posts with references to objective sources. I recognize war crimes and crimes against humanity by both sides when I see them.

I've previously stated that Hamas rockets fired against Israeli citizens which have killed about two dozen people in the last decade are war crimes.

Hey Trex, I'd like to see you identify a single crime against humanity or war crime committed by Israel. I bet you can't...

What's the matter T, don't the Israeli propganda emails and websites, which tell you how to think, mention them?

 

[earth_as_one]

Another reason I post on this subject is that it is the biggest humanitarian problem where Canada has sided with the oppressor, not the oppressed and where most Canadians blame the victim. But the pictures coming out of Gaza have hopefully opened the eyes of many Canadians.

I used to post alot about the Iraq war, back in 2002-2004. But in the last three years most people have figured out they were bamboozled by pro-death and destruction propaganda.

But many people still haven't figured out regarding this Israel. When they do, I'll move on to something else.

 

[taxslave]

The really sad part of all this is that they are the same tribe. Until a few centuries ago when they had a disagreement over religion. Which is all this is-another battle over who has the direct line to some mythical god.

 

[L Gilbert]

My new neighbor came over the other day and we chatted for a bit and he asked if I was ok with him and his wife riding on our property. I didn't start lobbing .303 rounds at him. I wouldn't even mind if he wanted to put a hayshed up. He won't because he has lots of space to put his own shed up. He didn't just open the gate and start riding or building a shed. I don't care what religion he leans on and I am sure he doesn't care than we are atheists.
In this neighborhood, we don't really care much others doas long as they enjoy life and leave us to enjoy ours. It's a shameful comment on some humans that they can't do the same.
I should mention that if someone does want to build a house on or use some of our land for farming or whatever, as long as they pay the proportion of property tax with it, it'd be fine. The problem with this is that the gov't doesn't like the idea; Regional District rules and all that bullspit.

 

[L Gilbert]

Another reason I post on this subject is that it is the biggest humanitarian problem where Canada has sided with the oppressor, not the oppressed and where most Canadians blame the victim. But the pictures coming out of Gaza have hopefully opened the eyes of many Canadians.

I used to post alot about the Iraq war, back in 2002-2004. But in the last three years most people have figured out they were bamboozled by pro-death and destruction propaganda.

But many people still haven't figured out regarding this Israel. When they do, I'll move on to something else.

wow, EA1. You are just sooooo noble. You should start a campaign educating us dumba$$es about kids smoking. Perhaps another about the evils of overeating. Maybe another about the constant need for refereeing between Pakistan and a couple of its neighbors. Or Russia and a couple of its neighbors.

 

[earth_as_one]

LG, I admit I have been profoundly affected by the images I've seen and what I've learned about this conflict. I am also disturbed by the level of pro-Israel propaganda which obscures the facts and contributes to the ongoing injustice and oppression.

The positions of Canada's leaders and the way this story has been reported is part of the problem. This is not about the Palestinians exactly. Its about the fundamental right of all people to justice and freedom. Palestinians have neither and that's not about to change in the near term. People are either entitled to these fundamental rights or they aren't.

If this was the 1850's I'd be going on about slavery. Its only through people identifying the problem and people becoming outraged that things change.

I would agree that Israel and the occupied territories isn't the only place where crimes against humanity are taking place. Darfur and Zimbabwe are other examples. But in these other examples, I agree with our leaders and the mainstream media.

 

[L Gilbert]

LG, I admit I have been profoundly affected by the images I've seen and what I've learned about this conflict. I am also disturbed by the level of pro-Israel propaganda which obscures the facts and contributes to the ongoing injustice and oppression.

Me, too. I don't care about sides, though. I simply think whoever uses anyone else as a target for projectiles or words of hate or anything in between is reprehensible. It is extremely stupid and the vast majority of disputes are caused by religion and politics.

The positions of Canada's leaders and the way this story has been reported is part of the problem. This is not about the Palestinians exactly. Its about the fundamental right of all people to justice and freedom. Palestinians have neither and that's not about to change in the near term. People are either entitled to these fundamental rights or they aren't.

If this was the 1850's I'd be going on about slavery. Its only through people identifying the problem and people becoming outraged that things change.

I would agree that Israel and the occupied territories isn't the only place where crimes against humanity are taking place. Darfur and Zimbabwe are other examples. But in these other examples, I agree with our leaders and the mainstream media.

Unfortunately, politicians are even more susceptible to propaganda and their own personal opinion than most, and they are usually too busy squabbling like children in QP or doing other things that pols do (those stressful things in life like golfing, attending dinner functions, etc.) to bother to research for the truth about what they hear. Definitely the newsmedia isn't much help with objective info either and I think pols rely heavily on media for info.

 

[Cannuck]

Unfortunately, politicians are even more susceptible to propaganda and their own personal opinion than most....

The number one priority of all politicians is to get elected. The number two priority of all politicians is to get re-elected. Everything else is number three.

 

[Trex]

I see this issue as one that is will eventually lead to WW III. I don't want Canada to get involved, help people who war crimes or crimes against humanity.

I am disturbed that Canada's leaders and our news media have come out on side of people who commit war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Regarding your personal attack against me which probably violates forum rules. That's play number 7 from the Israeli propaganda play book:



I back up my posts with references to objective sources. I recognize war crimes and crimes against humanity by both sides when I see them.

I've previously stated that Hamas rockets fired against Israeli citizens which have killed about two dozen people in the last decade are war crimes.

Hey Trex, I'd like to see you identify a single crime against humanity or war crime committed by Israel. I bet you can't...

What's the matter T, don't the Israeli propganda emails and websites, which tell you how to think, mention them?

.............................................................................................

Well earth as one,

Thanks for at least pecking out a real response.
I appreciate you not retaliating by cut'n'pasting a few thousand more words of rhetoric.

Regarding your statement that I personally attacked you,
perhaps that is so but I try to limit my criticisms to what you do on this site and not what you do as a private individual.
And once again I maintain that you are the worst poster of propaganda on this site.

Earlier I actually wondered if you were some kind of Iranian propaganda bot and the reason for that was because of the endless cut'n'pasteing of political dogma followed up with.........nothing really.

Now I realize that you are indeed an actual individual.
To criticize others for believing propaganda when all you do on this site is endlessly spew propaganda seems to me to be a tad bizarre.


Quote: Reading through the posts on this forum about Israel, its obvious that many people here have common misperceptions based on Zionist propaganda,

Quote:Canada plays an active role helping Israel kill thousands and oppress and imprison millions. All Canadians should have a problem with that. I hope that Canadians of good conscience will make themselves aware of the facts in this conflict and speak out.

I found the above statements that you made about the forum dwellers on this web site and all Canadians in general erroneous, condescending and insulting.
And I responded.


I think it is possible that you really believe that every cut'n'paste word you post is factually correct and free of all bias.
And in itself that speaks volumes.

Quote:
I am disturbed that Canada's leaders and our news media have come out on side of people who commit war crimes and crimes against humanity.[/unquote]

Earth as one my personal position on this issue is that it takes two sides to fight.
I laid it all out before.
As to war crimes.
When you are convicted of a war crime by the World Court in the Hague then and only then have you committed a war crime.
Or so international law says.
If you are charged by the World Court with crimes against humanity or war crimes then I suppose you could say the individual in question is potentially guilty.
So far as I know there are no charges pending against any Israelis.
That of course could change.
I am certainly not defending them.
I think the Israelis over reacted in the extreme personally.

I just point this out to try and show you how horribly biased, flawed and erroneous some of your posts are.
But that's propaganda for ya.

Oh and how are those war crimes tribunals focused on the Muslim leaders of Somalia and the Sudan coming along.
And I believe the Hague issued a warrant for Omar al-Bashir the president of the Sudan.
Ethnic cleansing of non- Muslims wasn't it?

Trex