I'm not talking about that actually. I'm talking about the Mexican-American war. Maybe you can google it. It was the US against Mexico, not the US government against the Indians. That was another matter. I have no reason to be ashamed of either since I'm not American. I have Canada's illustrious treatment of natives to be ashamed of, just like you.
Shame on Canada! re: Propaganda and Canada's Support of Ethnic Cleansing.
- Thread starter earth_as_one
- Start date
I'm not talking about that actually. I'm talking about the Mexican-American war. Maybe you can google it. It was the US against Mexico, not the US government against the Indians. That was another matter. I have no reason to be ashamed of either since I'm not American. I have Canada's illustrious treatment of natives to be ashamed of, just like you.
Question to Earth-As-One:
You began this thread with the history of peaceful co-existence.
It's true to a certain extent, but you do omit quite a few instances of pogroms during that same period. In the interests of accuracy, can you, yourself list those incidents?
If I know you're an A-hole, and I come up to punch you and miss, aren't I inviting retaliation that might be more effective and bigger than my initial ineffective swipe at you?
Is this not the lesson the allegedly victorious Hezbollah learned in 2006 and which is why they aren't firing rockets from the north to help the southern Hamas?
Of course there's an old holocaust joke where one Jew says to another, "Be quiet, you'll piss them off more."
Actually I'd like to see direct answers so I can clear out the bias you crusade against.
You began this thread with the history of peaceful co-existence.
It's true to a certain extent, but you do omit quite a few instances of pogroms during that same period. In the interests of accuracy, can you, yourself list those incidents?
If I know you're an A-hole, and I come up to punch you and miss, aren't I inviting retaliation that might be more effective and bigger than my initial ineffective swipe at you?
Is this not the lesson the allegedly victorious Hezbollah learned in 2006 and which is why they aren't firing rockets from the north to help the southern Hamas?
Of course there's an old holocaust joke where one Jew says to another, "Be quiet, you'll piss them off more."
Actually I'd like to see direct answers so I can clear out the bias you crusade against.
You agree that Israel was looking for a fight. I agree Hamas played into their hands. You are aware these people were suffering, but does starving people to the point where children suffer malnutrition cross any lines for you? I am well aware Hamas and Gazans in general feel hate and anger. I view both sides in this dispute with suspicion like you.
A difference between us is that I recognize the criminal activity of both Hamas and Israel. I have stated many times that Hamas's rocket attacks which have killed about two dozen people over the years are war crimes. How does these crimes compare to Israel's starvation of 1.5 million people, their ongoing ethnic cleansing and provoking a war which turned one of the world's most densely populated areas into a war zone where innocent civilians could neither flee or hide....
I've never read anything posted by you which recognizes Israel's crimes against humanity. Did I miss it?
hmmm
I don't particularly name any particular group's imposition of misery on other group, either. We are all human, whatever ethnicity, color, religion, etc. Naming one particular group blackens everyone that could be tagged with the same name and I am sure that there are actually some nice Israelis.
I don't particularly name any particular group's imposition of misery on other group, either. We are all human, whatever ethnicity, color, religion, etc. Naming one particular group blackens everyone that could be tagged with the same name and I am sure that there are actually some nice Israelis.
I hate to be technical, but starvation and malnutrition are extremely different things. Hyperbole doesn't help an argument. My problem with you placing all the blame for that on Israel is one you haven't addressed: EGYPT. They don't need the border with Israel to be open. They have another border. Why aren't they sending rockets into Egypt since Egypt is starving them? They are trying to paint their attacks as simply a response to the border not being as open as they want, but that's just not the case IMO. If it was Egypt would be a target too.
Now, what else could be the reason.... hmmm.... lemme see.... could it have anything to do with the fact that they hate Israel and want it wiped off the map? It's in their charter. Why is that fact ignored? One of their leaders was interviewed on European tv and said it's fine to have a truce with Israel, but the only reason for a truce is to prepare for the final battle. They don't want to coexist with Israel. They want to coexist until they are strong enough to destroy Israel. Those are two very different things.
I don't like governments trying to control demographics through racist policies, but the reality in that region is it's the only way for them to survive. Demanding the right of return be recognized in any peace deal is just saying you don't want a peace deal because it's completely unrealistic. Different versions of ethnic cleansing happened in India/Pakistan, in Croatia/Serbia, in Czechoslovakia/Germany. All of them have managed to go on. You seldom hear Germans who were marched out of Czechoslovakia after the war demanding their land back. Until we're willing to give all our stolen land back to the natives, it's pretty hypocritical to tell the Israelis to give up Jerusalem.
Sure Mubarak could have opened the border. It would have meant violating agreements with Fatah and their treaty with Israel. That he didn't speaks volumes about Abbas and Mubarak. Both of these people are owned by Israel.
Abbas fought a civil war with democratically elected Hamas. He won control of the West Bank, but lost in Gaza. Abbas has no love for Hamas and if he doesn't obey his Israeli masters, they'll take away his money, power and likely face assassination. For Abbas, its a choice between gold or lead.
Mubarak relies on billions in American military and economic support to maintain his iron grip on Egypt. If he breaks his treaty with Israel the bribe money from the US stops. As a result Mubarak does as he's told regarding Gaza. For Mubarak its a choice between remaining in power or facing civil war if his military might weakens.
LGilbert - I don't have a problem with Israelis or Jews. I have a problem with people who commit/support war crimes and crimes against humanity. That includes most Zionists and Israeli leaders, some Israelis and few Jews. It also includes most Hamas leaders and some Palestinians and a few Muslims. Apparently it also includes few people who post here on this forum.
Most Israelis were primed with pre-Iraq-like pro-war propganda and as a result most favored the Gaza invasion. I believe most changed their mind, when they saw the resulting horrors.
I'm sure that most Israelis who supported the war changed their minds after watching this event unfold on live Israeli TV:
YouTube - Palestinian Doctor's loss of childeren in gaza shakes viewers
The Gazan doctor was well known to most Israelis. He was a moderate voice for peace and a regular guest on Israeli news. He practiced in Israeli hospitals on Israeli patients. I think most Israelis were moved personally by his live on-air notification that his house had just been bombed, his two daughters daughters and a niece were dead and other members of his family were seriously injured and fighting for their lives. Certainly the news anchor was personally affected.
Tracy - You are really showing your stripes now. Think about what you just wrote. You are talking about 1.5 million fellow human beings... of which hundreds of thousands are children.
If someone purposely fed their children so poorly for two years that they suffered chronic malnutrition to the point their growth and development was stunted, would you consider that person cruel? Would you report that person to Children's Aid?
Demonizing Israeli propaganda fills your head to the point where you cannot feel compassion toward children who suffer disease and malnutrition and now shiver in the cold and darkness. Instead you can only see the few thousand men who chose to belong to Hamas. What about the other 1.5 million people?
When I was a teenager, I met an old man who claimed he was in the Hungarian SS during WW II. He made similar statements to yours regarding Jews. He said they were guilty of terrible things. I didn't agree with him of course, but he was just as fixed as you in his viewpoint regarding millions of people. I also tried to appeal to his compassion like I am to you now. I asked him about the hundreds of thousands of innocent Jewish children who suffered. He replied, "Nits grow up to be lice."
Is that how you feel about Palestinians?
I would agree with you regarding most members of Hamas. People who choose to be honorable warriors have my respect. People who commit war crimes do not. Members of Hamas and the IDF appear to meet both definitions. Regardless of their guilt or innocence I would still treat all people as fellow human beings.
I feel sorry for you, because you can't see that the Israeli propaganda which fills your head has successfully demonized fellow human beings to the point where you are unable to recognize cruelty, crimes against humanity or that some lines should not be crossed.
13 January 2009Press Conference
...Gaza’s sewage system, which had been feeble to begin with, had now collapsed due to prolonged power outages forced by waning electricity and fuel supplies for back-up generators. In Beit Lahiya and Beit Hanoun, sewage was flowing in the streets. He added that sewage treatment was also lacking and tons of untreated waste was being dumped into the Mediterranean, raising a host of ecological fears and concerns, “not just for Gaza, but the entire region”.
To a related question, he said UNRWA and other humanitarian organizations were equally concerned that, after weeks, some 500,000 people in the Strip still did not have access to running water. That included 60 per cent of the people in Gaza City. In addition, 80 per cent of the drinking water in Gaza was not safe for human consumption, according to World Health Organization (WHO) guidelines...
...there is a real fear about outbreaks [of] cholera and other diseases,” he said, adding that many water, sewage and power stations were inoperable because, following the deaths of three utility servicemen in the early days of the conflict...
PRESS CONFERENCE ON GAZA HUMANITARIAN SITUATION
"What kind of a person would support a death, destruction, a cruel blockade which results in hundreds of thousands of stunted, underdeveloped malnourished children who wallow in filth and raw sewage shivering in the cold and dark?"
Regarding Hamas's existencial threat to Israel. Its like a todler with a water pistol threatening to kill an adult. I'm sure they have the intention but they lack the means. Would the adult be justified in laying a beating on the baby if they squirted their pistol?
Besides Hamas has said repeatedly they are willing to accept a long term truce in return for a just settlement and leave it to the next generation to decide. I doubt they are willing to go back to that position now. Israel's actions are slowing leading to a situation where one side is going to have to fight to the death against the other. Even if Israel did exterminate all Palestinians, I doubt that would sit well with 1.5 billion Arabs and Muslims or the rest of the world. But that's the path Israel's leaders appear to have chosen.
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[FONT=Verdana,Arial]Arab blogs: Tents in desert reveal Israeli plan to transfer Gazans to Egypt[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial] Saed Bannoura - IMEMC News[/FONT]
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[FONT=Verdana,Arial]Arab blogs: Tents in desert reveal Israeli plan to transfer Gazans to Egypt[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial] Saed Bannoura - IMEMC News[/FONT]
Your argument would be a good one except I never made any such claim :roll:. I support aboriginal rights completely and think Canada should pay up fully for any transgressions.
Earth_as_one, I thought you were a reasonable person. Your post accusing me of lacking compassion for children makes me think otherwise. You have no idea how I feel for children or what my level of compassion is. I would bet that I spend more of my time in the service of children than you do.
But, to answer your question, no I don't think it's right for children to be malnourished. I see it in real life and it's not right. I also don't think it's right for children to be LITERALLY starving to death all over the world. I don't see you mentionning the 35000 or so who die from hunger and preventable diseases every single day but I won't assume that means you think they deserve to die. As I said, my problem with your post is that I don't see why Egypt gets off the hook. They are as guilty as Israel of causing malnourishment in Gaza, but you give them a free ride. What they choose to do with their border is somehow also Israel and America's fault. I also just don't believe that's the reason for the rockets against Israel. Again, if it was, why aren't they attacking Egypt? You have no answer for that. It's because it isn't about the border. It's about the very existence of Israel.
But, to answer your question, no I don't think it's right for children to be malnourished. I see it in real life and it's not right. I also don't think it's right for children to be LITERALLY starving to death all over the world. I don't see you mentionning the 35000 or so who die from hunger and preventable diseases every single day but I won't assume that means you think they deserve to die. As I said, my problem with your post is that I don't see why Egypt gets off the hook. They are as guilty as Israel of causing malnourishment in Gaza, but you give them a free ride. What they choose to do with their border is somehow also Israel and America's fault. I also just don't believe that's the reason for the rockets against Israel. Again, if it was, why aren't they attacking Egypt? You have no answer for that. It's because it isn't about the border. It's about the very existence of Israel.
Hamas isn't a baby. They don't use water pistols. Your example is ridiculous.
If you think they will accept coexistence with Israel, you are naive and ignoring their own words. To their credit Hamas' leaders seldom try to pretend they will allow Israel to continue to exist. They're mostly honest about it. Unlike you, I take them at their word. I can't pretend they mean something nicer than what they actually say.
Okay, I'm back.....
Here it is, the facts. read 'em and weep, Islamo-fascist supporters.....
Last summer's truce between Hamas and Israel ended when, on Nov. 4, Israel discovered Hamas militants attempting to enter Israel by tunnel. They attacked this breach of their borders, killing at least 6 militants.
The supporters of Hamas (and yes, EAO, that includes you) claim this was an Israeli violation of the ceasefire.
WHAT THE HELL! What, stopping infiltrators coming into your country is a VIOLATION!!!????? Idiotic. There was a violation, a violation by Hamas of Israeli territory.......therefore a violation of the truce by HAMAS.....full stop.
It could have ended there.....but NO, Hamas was not interested in peace, as ever they proceeded to launch hundreds of rockets at Israel, for daring to resist when they set out to murder Jews.
Israel responded. Like the Lebanon campaign in 2006, the first bomb didn't hit the ground before the idiot sixth column of Islamo-fascism was screaming "war crimes!" and "genocide". In three weeks of fighting, 1500 Palestinians died.
Now, let me slap a little reality on you. Had Israel wanted to inflict harsh punishment on the people of Gaza, they could have easily killed 50 times that number. Easily. Instead, as in Lebanon, Israel tries to avoid civilian casualties as much as possible without hindering its military goals.........despite the fact the Palestinians, as you guys keep pointing out, they elected Hamas....dumb move, eh?
As for those weeping for the "children of Gaza", I strongly suspect their big problem is the damn Jews once again refused to line up for exection.....they've become uppity since 1945.
The civilian toll is horrifying....anybody that doesn't deeply regret the loss of innocent life, especially children, is more than slightly twisted....but the facts are:
Hamas does not recognize the right of Israel to exist.
Hamas is not interested in peace as long as Israel exists.
Hamas started the fight by breaching Israel's borders.
Hamas kept the fight going by launching hundreds of rockets into Israel.
Hamas is fully responsible for the resulting carnage.
Fully responsible.
Death to Hamas.
Deal with it.
This stuff pisses me off.
I'm tired of scum using the deaths of children for political ends.
Here it is, the facts. read 'em and weep, Islamo-fascist supporters.....
Last summer's truce between Hamas and Israel ended when, on Nov. 4, Israel discovered Hamas militants attempting to enter Israel by tunnel. They attacked this breach of their borders, killing at least 6 militants.
The supporters of Hamas (and yes, EAO, that includes you) claim this was an Israeli violation of the ceasefire.
WHAT THE HELL! What, stopping infiltrators coming into your country is a VIOLATION!!!????? Idiotic. There was a violation, a violation by Hamas of Israeli territory.......therefore a violation of the truce by HAMAS.....full stop.
It could have ended there.....but NO, Hamas was not interested in peace, as ever they proceeded to launch hundreds of rockets at Israel, for daring to resist when they set out to murder Jews.
Israel responded. Like the Lebanon campaign in 2006, the first bomb didn't hit the ground before the idiot sixth column of Islamo-fascism was screaming "war crimes!" and "genocide". In three weeks of fighting, 1500 Palestinians died.
Now, let me slap a little reality on you. Had Israel wanted to inflict harsh punishment on the people of Gaza, they could have easily killed 50 times that number. Easily. Instead, as in Lebanon, Israel tries to avoid civilian casualties as much as possible without hindering its military goals.........despite the fact the Palestinians, as you guys keep pointing out, they elected Hamas....dumb move, eh?
As for those weeping for the "children of Gaza", I strongly suspect their big problem is the damn Jews once again refused to line up for exection.....they've become uppity since 1945.
The civilian toll is horrifying....anybody that doesn't deeply regret the loss of innocent life, especially children, is more than slightly twisted....but the facts are:
Hamas does not recognize the right of Israel to exist.
Hamas is not interested in peace as long as Israel exists.
Hamas started the fight by breaching Israel's borders.
Hamas kept the fight going by launching hundreds of rockets into Israel.
Hamas is fully responsible for the resulting carnage.
Fully responsible.
Death to Hamas.
Deal with it.
This stuff pisses me off.
I'm tired of scum using the deaths of children for political ends.
No, but that's okay, you're not close enough to bite me....
Bite? No ... I was thinking about marking you as territory....;-)
This is a decidedly racial rant IMO.
If you considered the Palestinians people of equal value to the Israelis you could not say these things.
You assume a privilege for the Israelis that gives justification.
This is the same trick Americans play with their "manifest destiny."
It is racism, godism and utterly evil.
This is just silly..........
(sigh)
First of all, the vast majority of the Jews in Israel and the Palestinians are the same race, so supporting one against the other is hardly racism. get sensible.
I grant the Israelis no priviledge....only a right, that of self-defense.
This has nothing to do with the USA, but you will notice we don't launch missiles across the border at the USA, thus we live in relative peace with them.:roll:
The Israeli Jews and the Islamic Palestinians worship the same God.....
So no racism, no "godism" (whatever the Hell that is), as for evil, I speak out against a group (Islamofascists) that would subjugate women, engage in executions for religious conversion, murder every Jew they could lay hands on, along with homosexuals and anyone else that violated a set of religious principles that hasn't loosened since the Dark Ages, and I speak in defence of a liberal democracy, with liberty and rule-of-law.
If that is "utterly evil" then I have badly misunderstood the concept.
But I don't think so.
Sorry Tracy I must have misinterpreted your post. I thought your previous post was defending Israel's deliberate blockade of food and medicine entering Gaza. Did I miss your post where you said you were against this practice? correct me if I am wrong, but I thought you were saying its the same as other places in the world where people go hungry so its acceptable.
I am aware that nearly a billion people go to bed hungry every night and that about 35,000 people die of starvation each day. But I am also aware that for most nations where this happens, the country recognizes its a problem and at least claim they are trying to reduce and eliminate it.
Israel and the Occupied territories isn't one of these countries. Israel deliberately prevents food and medicine from entering Gaza. Effectively Israel uses its control over food and medicine entering Gaza as a weapon. Famine and disease in Gaza are deliberate policies, not natural catastrohphes. Food shortages aren't a result from crop failures or droughts but by Israeli soldiers preventing trucks of international food aid from entering Gaza.
Both types are famine are horrific catastrophies, but one type is entirely deliberate and preventable, while the other happens because the authorities are overwhelmed by problems they can't solve.
That said Israel isn't the only place in the world where food and medicine are weapons in war, but that practice is inexcusable regardless where it takes place and I have no problem such activities are war crimes and crimes against humanity and the people responsible should be brought before the Internatinoal Court of Justice and held accountable for their crimes.
But I still haven't seen anything in any of your posts where you condemn Israel's use of food and medicine as a weapon.
Yes Egypt is part of the problem, but Israel and the US effectively control Egypt through economic and political means. Egypt's border with Gaza is closed because that's what Israel and the US want. If israel adn the US asked Egypt to open their border, Egypt would open it. If Egypt opens its border with Gaza freely in defiance of the US and Israel, then Mubarak would loose billions in military and economic support. For me it would be an easy decision. I'd open the border and tell the US and Israel to keep their money. But that's not the decision Mubarak made and yes he should be condemned for that. Abbas also has a part to play and that a leader of a people would deliberately starve his people is outrageous. Both Mubarak and Abbas are guilty of helping Israel commit crimes against humanity and they are just as guilty as Israel and the US.
Another problem here is that I believe Israel has invented a new kind of war crime. In other wars, civilians can flee or hide from war. But Israel's absolute control of Gaza's borders has created a new type of problem. Civilians in the Gaza war zone, can't flee. They are completely contained. That's a new one, but I believe it meets the definition of a crime against humanity.
So are you willing to say anything negative about Israel's use of food and medicine as a weapon?
I am aware that nearly a billion people go to bed hungry every night and that about 35,000 people die of starvation each day. But I am also aware that for most nations where this happens, the country recognizes its a problem and at least claim they are trying to reduce and eliminate it.
Israel and the Occupied territories isn't one of these countries. Israel deliberately prevents food and medicine from entering Gaza. Effectively Israel uses its control over food and medicine entering Gaza as a weapon. Famine and disease in Gaza are deliberate policies, not natural catastrohphes. Food shortages aren't a result from crop failures or droughts but by Israeli soldiers preventing trucks of international food aid from entering Gaza.
Both types are famine are horrific catastrophies, but one type is entirely deliberate and preventable, while the other happens because the authorities are overwhelmed by problems they can't solve.
That said Israel isn't the only place in the world where food and medicine are weapons in war, but that practice is inexcusable regardless where it takes place and I have no problem such activities are war crimes and crimes against humanity and the people responsible should be brought before the Internatinoal Court of Justice and held accountable for their crimes.
But I still haven't seen anything in any of your posts where you condemn Israel's use of food and medicine as a weapon.
Yes Egypt is part of the problem, but Israel and the US effectively control Egypt through economic and political means. Egypt's border with Gaza is closed because that's what Israel and the US want. If israel adn the US asked Egypt to open their border, Egypt would open it. If Egypt opens its border with Gaza freely in defiance of the US and Israel, then Mubarak would loose billions in military and economic support. For me it would be an easy decision. I'd open the border and tell the US and Israel to keep their money. But that's not the decision Mubarak made and yes he should be condemned for that. Abbas also has a part to play and that a leader of a people would deliberately starve his people is outrageous. Both Mubarak and Abbas are guilty of helping Israel commit crimes against humanity and they are just as guilty as Israel and the US.
Another problem here is that I believe Israel has invented a new kind of war crime. In other wars, civilians can flee or hide from war. But Israel's absolute control of Gaza's borders has created a new type of problem. Civilians in the Gaza war zone, can't flee. They are completely contained. That's a new one, but I believe it meets the definition of a crime against humanity.
So are you willing to say anything negative about Israel's use of food and medicine as a weapon?
How can you say all the immigrants from Europe are the same race as the Palestinians? You need to get sensible.
A privilege you don't afford the Palestinians. They have had their land stolen yet you would have them sit on their hands. Why don't you say Israel should sit on their hands?
You'll notice that we aren't carved up into tiny reserves and forced to live in desperate poverty. :roll:
There is no god. I'll agree they cry, plead and wail at the same empty sky.
Islamofascist - what is that(?)
This is godism - you speak out against one religion while ignoring the shortcomings of the other.
Hamas was elected and so you speak out for tyranny and oppression.
I would say so, yes.
Neither do the Jews and the Palestinians.
To Tracy:
After reading this thread, I just got to commend you for some really good posts here.
To Earth As One:
Is it at all possible, you are over-compensating for the Israeli propaganda you feel has brainwashed us all?
Are you tempted to ignore certain facts about Hamas to persue the larger point you are making about Israeli propaganda?
After reading this thread, I just got to commend you for some really good posts here.
To Earth As One:
Is it at all possible, you are over-compensating for the Israeli propaganda you feel has brainwashed us all?
Are you tempted to ignore certain facts about Hamas to persue the larger point you are making about Israeli propaganda?