Denying Zionism doesn't make it go away either. You can cry poor me all you want but you'd best remember folks in Gaza bleed too ... lots when they have to be slaughtered at 100 to 1 ratios.
Shame on Canada! re: Propaganda and Canada's Support of Ethnic Cleansing.
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Denying Zionism doesn't make it go away either. You can cry poor me all you want but you'd best remember folks in Gaza bleed too ... lots when they have to be slaughtered at 100 to 1 ratios.
So what is your saving formula? to get Hamas backed by Iran and try and beat up the Jews? which by the way should a street fight take place between the Israelis and Iran you can be sure Iran will have all it's teeth knocked out by a Nuke.
Israel gave work to unemployed and unwanted Muslim Palestinians way back them but given the infiltration of the Jew haters in Gaza sure the Jews would look like they were keeping to their own. You call that Zionism?
LW I am not here to convince any one or change history to my liking, I am simply saying that all excluding none including my self, if I was a Jew I would defend my country with blood if I was told I because I am a Jew I should die.
And don’t pretend that is not a big part of the Arab Israeli problem
My saving formula remains IDF and Hamas should fire all their weapons two degrees west of straight up then sit down over a bottle of Mogen David. One is as bad as the other.
Go give your buddy Harper a big juicy kiss now....
Go give your buddy Harper a big juicy kiss now....
The scary part for me is how many Canadians would want to kill them.
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You do know that an attack on Iran will be considered to be an attack on Russia, you do know that right?
Asia Times Online :: Middle East News - Attack Iran and you attack Russia
Don't forget you have to get past the S-400 defences LOL Israel risks being shot down over Iraq.
RIA Novosti described the S-400 Triumf -- NATO designation SA-21 Growler -- as being "designed to intercept and destroy airborne targets at a distance of up to 400 kilometers (250 miles) -- twice the range of the U.S. MIM-104 Patriot and 2.5 times that of the S-300PMU-2."
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Thanks for you post Tracy engaging me in intelligent debate. Your post is well written and polite.
I agree and disagree with your points.
I don't admire Hamas. They aren't people I'd want as neighbors. But Hamas didn't just appear out of nowhere. They are a consequence of decades of oppression and injustice.
Hamas says what they mean and mean what they say. They are honest even even when its counter productive to their cause.
They are able to respect their agreements until Israeli violations render their observance pointless.
They don't appear to be corrupt, which is why they defeated Fatah in general elections.
Despite these atributes, I would not want them running Canada.
They are religious fanatics with an extreme and intolerant viewpoint.
At one point Hamas's leaders were willing to live in peace with Israel during their time and leave it to the next generation to decide what to do next.
I bet you never heard of Abu Shanab. He was the chief Hamas architect behind the 2003 Road map to peace. He negotiated on behalf of Hamas and got all the Palestinian militant groups to agree to the ceasefire:
Here's how the 2003 roadmap collapsed:
Let me respond to your points as questions:
Is Hamas innocent? (of violating their 2008 truce with Israel) No they are guilty of deliberately violating their truce with Israel in response to Israel's blockade of humanitarian relief, their constant and deliberate violent provocations and blatant truce violations.
You claim Israel is justified in attacking Hamas in response to their rocket attacks.
I'd say it depends on who attacked who first. Let's put this another way.
Is Israel justified in attacking Hamas when they aren't firing rockets?
Gaza truce broken as Israeli raid kills six Hamas gunmen | World news | guardian.co.uk
Let's use your test.
Would the United States be justified in responding with force to a Mexican raid into the United States which killed 6 American servicemen?
Is Israel guilty of ethnic cleansing? Absolutely they are. Israel was created as a result of an ethnic cleansing war which continues to this day. Its what Palestinians claimed at the time and has been verified by modern Israeli historians going through recently declassified Israeli military archives...
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by Ilan Pappe
But the ethnic cleansing never stopped. The West Bank is slowly being transformed into a series of prisons just like Gaza.
The last map is a bit out of date, but you get the idea.
This recent UN document describe thousands of Palestinians loosing their homes and property each year as Israel builds thousands of Jewish only homes on the expropriated land. (aka ethnic cleansing)
[25 August 2008]
Ongoing Forced Internal Displacement and Dispossession of the Palestinian population in the OPT
A/HRC/9/NGO/24 of 29 August 2008
You have a perception that Arafat turned down a pretty good peace deal. I'll bet that perception comes from Israel, not Arafat:
Read for Arafat's word's for yourself:
But since then Israel has decided since to build a wall and seize whatever land they want.
Let's try your test again.
If Mexico was busy building a wall inside the US and annexing most of the arable land and water in Texas, New Mexico and California, how would the US react?
The Palestinians seem to have more land than the natives in Canada so obviously they're being completely unreasonable.
I mean that's how the world works right? The good white people move in, take everything, and if you have the temerity to suggest we aren't so entitled we kick the sh!t out of you.
I mean that's how the world works right? The good white people move in, take everything, and if you have the temerity to suggest we aren't so entitled we kick the sh!t out of you.
That's pretty much the programe I guess. But we do bring good sound economics though, ya got to give us that much eh.
Do you know what the difference is? The US won and Mexico lost. Mexico accepted its borders a long time ago and its people have built a pretty decent country. They aren't still stuck in what happened generations ago.
Arafat wasn't offered a perfect peace. He was offered a pretty decent deal though. The loser in a war will never get everything they want. In the case of Israel and the Palestinians, the winner will never get everything they want either. People other than the Palestinians have suffered but manage to move forward. Look at Serbs, Croats, Hutus, Tutsis... all their suffering is much more recent yet they've found ways to go on. They aren't trying to kill eachother for generations. They didn't get perfect peace treaties either, but they realized something decent was better than nothing at all. Yasser Arafat didn't seem to feel that way.
You can talk all you want about Israel closing its border, but why in God's name aren't you mentionning Egypt? A fellow arab/muslim country won't let its borders be open to those people!!! Why are we expecting more from the Israelis than we are the Egyptians?
You're talking about the Indian wars genocide. Yeah, they don't fight back anymore...
You should be ashamed of such things, it was truly disgusting what the USA did. I am revolted by your attitude. And to suggest some parallel between the USA and Israel is a mockery! The Israelis have been brutal and inhuman to be sure but the USA was an hardly believable monster and left one of the worst blights on human history that Hitler and Stalin combined can't even come close to.
Does that include being called a Nazi, a jew hater, anti-Semite, sent to jail for 2+ years? And then we have the heavy bomb-HOLOCAUST DENIER-
I believe Hamas is partly responsible for the deaths of 1500 people in Gaza recently. They could have maintained their ceasefire despite Israel's violations.
I would say Israel leaders were more or less in the drivers seat regarding how events unfolded and they deliberately provoked Hamas into breaking their truce and escalated the violence to the point where they could justify a brutal assault on Gaza in time for Israeli elections in a couple of weeks.
Regarding that "pretty good deal". You never read Arafat's letter did you? Pretty good deal is the way Israel marketed this deal. Whe a car sales man tells you the piece of crap he's trying to sell you is a "pretty good deal" do you take his word?
Arafat was desperate for a peace deal before he died. I think he would have even settled for a bad deal. But not a deal which crossed the line of bad and was well into the area of insulting and foolish.
Israel tried to impose a peace treaty on these people which would have given them stewardship over Israel's toxic dumps and uninhabitable desert in exchange for the West Bank becoming a series of concentration camps and rewarding Israel for building Jewish only settlements on land supposedly reserved for a future Palestinian state. Also it did not change the situation of Palestinian refugees, with one change, they could live in Palestine in toxic waste dumps or in the uninhabitable desert. Effectively Arafat was offered the same deal they are getting now without negotiating or getting toxic waste dumps. If Arafat had signed that deal, he would have been ridiculed by Palestinians, the Arab world and even Israelis. But he would have got another picture of himself shaking hands with someone important.
You seem to believe that Israel had no choices and the Hamas is 100% guilty for the violence. Is that true? Is this your viewpoint?
Four question for you Tracy:
1) Is Israel justified attacking Hamas when Hamas isn't firing any rockets?
YouTube - Who Broke The Cease Fire - Hamas or Israel 2008
2) Is Israel guilty of ethnic cleansing? (aka committing crime against humanity)
A/HRC/9/NGO/24 of 29 August 2008
3) Did Israel delierately provoke the latest round of violence by attacking Hamas on November 4, 2008 in order to use Hamas's inevitable response as justification to escalate the violence in time for Israeli elections?
4) When Israel blockades the free flow in violation of the terms of its truce, is that also known as a crime against humanity?
The terms of the truce were:
a) Hamas stop firing rockets at Israel from Gaza(they did)
YouTube - Who Broke The Cease Fire - Hamas or Israel 2008
b) Hamas stop other militant groups from firing rockets at Israel from Gaza (more or less they did, but in the cases where they were unsuccessful, they arrested the militants responsible)
c) Israel had to stop killing Gazans and carrying out raids into Gaza (more or less the same level of compliance as Hamas until November 4, 2008 )
d) Israel not use food and medicine as a weapon and allow the free flow of humanitarian aid into Gaza. (The graph above proves that didn't happen)
Tracy: "People other than the Palestinians have suffered but manage to move forward."
For these other people, their suffering eventually ended. But Palestinians have been suffering for 60 years and its been getting worse incrementally over time regardless of whether they agree to truces or fight.
Your statement above is like "If they have no bread, then let them eat cake". Like the Queen of France, you are oblivious to level of chronic suffering endured by these people.
How exactly do people look forward when they are currently imprisoned and starving?
Put yourself in the place a Gazan.
(read this link - Food insecurity in Gaza - Malnutrition and Shortages « Medical Operations Collaboration and Communications (C2) blog )
You and your family live in the world's largest prison and the prison guards have restricted food. Its been that way for several years now and your children suffer from malnutrition to the point their growth and development is being stunted. Its been four months since the last prison riot and according to the terms of the "truce" that ended the riot you were supposed to get more food. That hasn't happened.
What would you do?
You choices are:
1) Starve quietly
or
2) Fight and starve
Actions by Israel which met the ICC definition of "Crimes Against Humanity":
I believe Israel's ethnic cleansing, abductions, collective punnishment of 1.5 million Gazans through denial of food and medicine are examples that meet one or more of the above definitions.
Tracy are you going to defend Israel's "crimes against humanity"?
Oh and Canada's treatment of it's on Natives was SO STELLAR!
Quit being such a hypocrit. You have your First Nation stuck on reservations just as we do. They have the same problems and feel just as bad from losing their lands to Canadians.
"You can talk all you want about Israel closing its border, but why in God's name aren't you mentionning Egypt? A fellow arab/muslim country won't let its borders be open to those people!!! Why are we expecting more from the Israelis than we are the Egyptians?" Leave God out of it Tracy. Egypt is paid by the USA to do as it is told .
Aid is central to Washington's relationship with Cairo. The US has provided Egypt with $1.3 billion a year in military aid since 1979, and an average of $815 million a year in economic assistance. All told, Egypt has received over $50 billion in US largesse since 1975.
The money is seen as bolstering Egypt's stability, support for US policies in the region, US access to the Suez Canal, and peace with Israel.
Are you slowly getting the picture that you don't wish to see?
Aid is central to Washington's relationship with Cairo. The US has provided Egypt with $1.3 billion a year in military aid since 1979, and an average of $815 million a year in economic assistance. All told, Egypt has received over $50 billion in US largesse since 1975.
The money is seen as bolstering Egypt's stability, support for US policies in the region, US access to the Suez Canal, and peace with Israel.
Are you slowly getting the picture that you don't wish to see?
Zz, Colpy, Durka, Just the facts and you are all absent --are you so demoralized by the truthful vids presented by Earth that you are speechless. Having difficulty calling a Holocaust surviving Israeli MP a Nazi, a Jew Hater and anti-Semite?
Can't stand the fact that Israel broke the truce not Hamas.
Check your mail perhaps you received a memo as how to reply to the truth.
Can't stand the fact that Israel broke the truce not Hamas.
Check your mail perhaps you received a memo as how to reply to the truth.
No it isn't. I think you always have a choice. I don't doubt Israel was trying to pick a fight. I just think Hamas playing into their hands was incredibly stupid and only put their people in more danger. I realize they were already suffering, but it wasn't like this. The reality is sometimes you have to be flawless to get much credit. Thanks to their oh so colourful past, that's the case with Hamas. You seem to only look at Israel with suspicion. I look at them both that way.
I don't understand what you're asking me. I don't see what it has to do with the topic at hand.
That's ridiculous. Now the US wants to starve the Palestinians? Clinton would have given his left nut to have been able to broker a peace deal in that area of the world. Everything is the fault of the Israelis or the Americans... stupid. The biggest problem I have with that view is that it infantalizes every other country on earth. "We can't do it cause mommy said no". The UK, Russia, Germany, Italy, France, Canada, Egypt, China... they're all powerless if the US and the Israelis don't want something to happen?