Protests across Canada denounce wars in Iraq and Afghanistan

[jimmoyer]

There are probably peace activists with ulterior motives, just as in any organization. But does that make the goal any less worthy?
--------------------------------Sanctus-----------------------------------------------------------

Sanctus, you missed the essential part of Tracy's post.

You sidestepped the essential hypocrisy evident in most posts about the US.

This hypocrisy is rampant in all the peace protest movements (not just some as you posit).

Relook at the rest of Tracy's post ----which is the most essential part you missed or sidestepped:

when I went home I saw what you see more than ever before. My parents were complaining about Darfur and said something about how the US wouldn't send troops there because they didn't have oil. I'd never call my parents anti-American and they are caring people, but I thought that was such a hypocritical comment. My response probably shocked them, but I asked them what Canada was willing to do about it and what they were willing to do about it? Were they willing to send THEIR son over there to fight and die for people they'd never met? Doubtful. Would those peace activists? Or would they just use their oh so obviously ineffective protests to try to persuade the Sudanese to be nice and then return to their safe comfortable bed every night?
---------------------------end of tracy's post---------------------------------



Final point, Sanctus.

Just because the goal of peace is good should not blind you to the hypocrisy
inside the entire peace movement. You know that throughout the Bible and particularly in
James that the righteous preachers have a higher threshold, a higher burden,
a higher responsibility to be without blame, without hypocrisy.

It's unfair, but the righteous get a finger pointed right back at them even more harshly,
eh ?

I am glad the peace protesters are there. I am glad they counter the war drums.
It's just that I don't want the peace protesters as blind or blinder than those they protest.

 

[darkbeaver]

What's the real reason for the US interest in Darfur? Is it Humanitarian? That's highly unlikely, haveing shown absolutely no concern or hesitation with murdering one and one half million men women and children in Iraq by depravation starvation neglect and military violence. How quickly the average American forgets one bloodbath to partake of another. They cry wolf and then eat the children themselves. The situation among the Americans is this, the violence and death and destruction for which the American people are most responsible for, Iraq. is that for which it is held the least accountable at home.
What is particularly disturbing to me and others is the ease with which the average American accepts murder and theft as thier right.

 

[jimmoyer]

What is particularly disturbing to me and others is the ease with which the average American accepts murder and theft as thier right.
--------------------------------------------------Darkbeaver--------------------------------------

Get a hold of yourself man, I BEG YOU.

The spittle is reaching all the way down here to Virginia.

Get a grip Darkbeaver.

If you're so concerned, find out why Canada got all worked up about sending only 300 soldiers
to Sudan ?

Or find out why China gets a pass on this matter, as they have the largest oil concern
there in their cozy relationship with the Sudanese leadership.

Other nations are doing nothing while they splutter morality in the comfortable arm chairs.

Get a tight grip on your mono-mania.

Look around. Evil is everywhere. Hypocrisy knows no borders.

 

[darkbeaver]

What is particularly disturbing to me and others is the ease with which the average American accepts murder and theft as thier right.
--------------------------------------------------Darkbeaver--------------------------------------

Get a hold of yourself man, I BEG YOU.

The spittle is reaching all the way down here to Virginia.

Get a grip Darkbeaver.

If you're so concerned, find out why Canada got all worked up about sending only 300 soldiers
to Sudan ?

Or find out why China gets a pass on this matter, as they have the largest oil concern
there in their cozy relationship with the Sudanese leadership.

Other nations are doing nothing while they splutter morality in the comfortable arm chairs.

Get a tight grip on your mono-mania.

Look around. Evil is everywhere. Hypocrisy knows no borders.

Why should I worry about China and give the USA a pass? You're the one who constantly spouts the words morality and hypocrisy. Does the word disingenuous mean nothing to you? It's realy quite insulting of you to expect us to believe that the people of Sudan and thier welfare are first and formost in the minds of Americans when you have no such consideration of Iraqis. You won't ever be able to get such a lame idea past me or the world at large, but you will easily get it arround the stunned electorate of America. The save Darfur campaign and the save Iraq and the save Vietnam and the save Gautemala and the save El Salvador and the save Chile and the save
Nigaragua etc; all have one thing in common and that's saving and stuffing fat America. You've cried wolf for sixty years it's getting stale.

 

[jimmoyer]

Why should I worry about China and give the USA a pass? You're the one who constantly spouts the words morality and hypocrisy. Does the word disingenuous mean nothing to you? It's realy quite insulting of you to expect us to believe that the people of Sudan and thier welfare are first and formost in the minds of Americans when you have no such consideration of Iraqis. You won't ever be able to get such a lame idea past me or the world at large, but you will easily get it arround the stunned electorate of America. The save Darfur campaign and the save Iraq and the save Vietnam and the save Gautemala and the save El Salvador and the save Chile and the save
Nigaragua etc; all have one thing in common and that's saving and stuffing fat America. You've cried wolf for sixty years it's getting stale.
--------------------------------Darkbeaver---------------------------------------------------------

You got our hypocrisy nailed down.

At least that's progress.

 

[EagleSmack]

Eaglesmack

Why would you suppose that I'm never suprised when an American discounts any article or evidence that illustrates the corruption of American business and government? Do you honestly believe that I can't find hundreds if not thousands of pieces of information that is capable of clearly establishing the culpability of several American administrations...Iran-Contra---Bay of Pigs-----Gulf of Tonkin----East Timor----Chile-----the list is endless...

Do you dismiss these articles because they don't offer the "preferred" line of propaganda that the Republicans of the "Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave"...gulp down in huge globs or is it that you simply refuse to entertain any perspective at odds with the "American Dream"?

I dismiss anything that is not fair and balanced. Information Clearing House is not fair and balanced. It is a left wing anit-American rag. That site is true propaganda.

Anyhting that is supportive of the administration is what you call propaganda.

 

[tracy]

There are probably peace activists with ulterior motives, just as in any organization. But does that make the goal any less worthy?

You completely missed my point. Jimmoyer did a pretty good job of explaining my post. It's the hypocracy that bothers me and yes, their motives matter. For some of them, their goal isn't peace. Their goal is to have the US be humbled. Period. They don't seem to care what happens AFTER the US leaves. They rail against the US because the US doesn't care about the average Iraqi, but what is their plan to help the average Iraqi without US troops there? It seems like they are angry about Americans killing Iraqis, but don't mind if Iraqis kill eachother in droves. I don't hear anything from them on a practical level. They don't have any sort of plan beyond removing troops and crossing their fingers. If they did, don't you think we would all embrace it? Do you think we really want hundreds of thousands of troops to be there risking their lives? I personally don't. My friend left for Iraq this weekend and I know he isn't thrilled to be going there. He'd rather be back here. The peace activists I was talking about in my post would never acknowledge that though. They'll spend their time attacking anyone who questions them and polarizing the country as much as they can. That doesn't promote peace. It isn't even effective at getting the government to do what they want. At least if they were effective I could respect them for that.

 

[mabudon]

there's NO escaping the reality that the US invasion of Iraq has created. I really DO believe that a US pullout from there of pretty much all of its fighting forces would, while resulting in a quick spate of problems (likely about as bad as what's happening there everyday already), be the fastest way "forward"

Short of war, there is NOTHING the US can now do to avoid Iran gaining a LOT of influence in Iraq, and there are other powerful countries in the region who would also be interested in securing relative "peace" there. The main problem with this scenario is that the US would lose ALL influence in the area besides Israel, which is only a problem or those with "US Interests"

The REAL problem with the continuing occupation is that it is at this point hampering ANY actual progress- as long as the US tries to keep it's hand in the pie, it'll never settle

 

[tracy]

there's NO escaping the reality that the US invasion of Iraq has created. I really DO believe that a US pullout from there of pretty much all of its fighting forces would, while resulting in a quick spate of problems (likely about as bad as what's happening there everyday already), be the fastest way "forward"

So if the US pulled all its troops out tomorrow and we see civil war break out, you wouldn't complain about it? You'd acknowledge that they did the right thing no matter how many Iraqis die in the short term?

 

[mabudon]

Sadly, I would say they did the best possible thing, yes, cos even now it's a "no matter how many Iraqis die" situation with NO end in sight. how's THAT for a bleeding heart Left-wing position eh??

 

[gopher]

```As a Christian myself, I do not believe that God intends for us to kill one another and I reject totally the concept of a "just war". There is no justice in war, only death.```

Amen!

 

[crit13]

"Anti-American"-the buzzword of the mindless influenced by the propaganda of the warmongers.

My "ilk" was very much against the murders of President Hussein and his reigme. My "ilk" has had many of its membership murdered for practicing its faith. My "ilk" protests violence in any shape or form by any person or country. And yes, I can and do deny it. For your information I am also very much against our own involvement in Afghanistan.Does that mean I'm anti-Canadian?

There are so many lies in your post I don't even know where to start.

Firstly, there was no outrage from your ilk for the 30 years Saddam was in power. There were no mass protests anywhere in the world outside of Iran. I guess Iraqi lives automatically increase in value once American troops set foot within it's borders. Most of your "ilk" couldn't even locate Iraq on a map 5 years ago.

If you really cared about human lives, you would be out protesting Rwanda, Ethiopia and about 6 other African nations. More lives are lost there every day than over the past 5 years in Iraq. But you and your ilk don't give a crap about them because the evil US of A isn't involved.

How can you deny that you are anti-American?

100 times more lives are lost in African conflicts that in Iraq yet I only see you and your pot smoking buddies burning American flags and effigies of Bush.

I guess black lives are only worth 1/100th of an Iraqi in your eyes.

 

[sanctus]

How can you deny that you are anti-American?

100 times more lives are lost in African conflicts that in Iraq yet I only see you and your pot smoking buddies burning American flags and effigies of Bush.

I guess black lives are only worth 1/100th of an Iraqi in your eyes.

You do not know me well enough to assert what I do and do not protest against. Nor are you in a position to determine what I do or do not think. Like most of us on the internet, you can only reflect on my written words. I assure you I am not anti-American. I am, however, anti-war in any situation, in any country, amongst any people.

 

[sanctus]

ekend and I know he isn't thrilled to be going there. He'd rather be back here. The peace activists I was talking about in my post would never acknowledge that though. They'll spend their time attacking anyone who questions them and polarizing the country as much as they can. That doesn't promote peace. It isn't even effective at getting the government to do what they want. At least if they were effective I could respect them for that.

How do you know the promotion of the concept of peace is not being effective? Must there be enormous and immediate results? do we stop, in essence, dreaming because others have not yet embraced the dream?

 

[sanctus]

Why should I worry about China and give the USA a pass? You're the one who constantly spouts the words morality and hypocrisy. Does the word disingenuous mean nothing to you? It's realy quite insulting of you to expect us to believe that the people of Sudan and thier welfare are first and formost in the minds of Americans when you have no such consideration of Iraqis. You won't ever be able to get such a lame idea past me or the world at large, but you will easily get it arround the stunned electorate of America. The save Darfur campaign and the save Iraq and the save Vietnam and the save Gautemala and the save El Salvador and the save Chile and the save
Nigaragua etc; all have one thing in common and that's saving and stuffing fat America. You've cried wolf for sixty years it's getting stale.

Quite stale indeed. And interestingly to me anyway, for a people crying for the "freedom" of the oppressed, why do they not bother with Cuba right on their border? Or dosen't it bother them that Cuban people are oppressed???

 

[sanctus]

You completely missed my point. Jimmoyer did a pretty good job of explaining my post. It's the hypocracy that bothers me and yes, their motives matter. For some of them, their goal isn't peace. Their goal is to have the US be humbled. Period. They don't seem to care what happens AFTER the US leaves. .

You certainly have made a compelling point. however, still I believe the Americans and British should abandon the place and leave the Iraqi's to sort out their own destiny. Also what interests me, with respect, about Americans, is their one-sided view of everything. Despite the facts, they act as if they are alone in the place, totally ignoring the British involvement. Sort of the same as their warped World War Two propaganda that makes it seem as if they were all alone against the Axis powers.

 

[jimmoyer]

Sanctus, you barely addressed directly Tracy's point with just a "....You certainly have made a compelling point. however,..."

Unfortunately I think you really just don't see it.

But let's move on to the point you and particularly Mabudon's posts about Iraq being better
off without American troops. You all might be right.

But...

you may be ignoring developing changes...

The news is reporting the absence of Shia attacks, the retiring of Sadr temporarily, the
quiet of the Shia militias, and even of Sadr's loss of some power over shia militia, and even
some cross accusations between the Shia analyzing some of their own mistakes in the
retaliatory killings against Sunni.

This is helpful. That leaves only the Sunni insurgents.

This is a fast changing war, changing its character each year, so that most talking heads
are often left behind talking about something that no longer is, like toy Generals fighting
the last war.

In the end the peace we envisioned before may not be the way we get peace now,
for Baghdad might become a totally shi-ite city to be in peace.

We might all be too sanctimonious (including me) in thinking we are comfortably right
about what to do in Iraq.

And as far as not putting every nation through the same hypocrisy test on Darfur,
it looks pretty clear about the mob thinking on that matter.

 

[Curiosity]

Nice try JimMoyer - it is a vital cause to some Canadians they keep this boiling for whatever reason I have no idea.

What I do not understand is how the people who insist that the U.S. pull out of Iraq can ignore promises made to the Iraqi people when they formed their 'temporary democratic government' by a vote of the people, to expect positive change.

The Iraqi people in their historic holy divisions are the ones creating the chaos with assistance and coaching from outsiders who want the U.S. to fail. If the U.S. pulls out as people are chanting here, the U.S. will hear repetitive mocking as was done over VietNam....

What is most surprising to me is how much is being delivered from Canada. I think even the pull out of the Canadian Forces from Afghanistan will not be enough. Canadians want more - and when I read some of the commentary here I wonder where Canadians are headed with this kind of thinking.

Still: one cannot satisfy howlers...it is what they do... it is what keeps them feeling alive, vital and a part of a movement...because their internal lives are so very empty. Dig deep into their 'causes', there is very little accomplished other than the 'safety of braying in large numbers to fill the news and up the anxiety / hatred notch' ...

Afirmation of the truth in Will Shakespeare's words: "Much ado about nothing."

I repeat: Promises were made and promises are being kept - it isn't a difficult concept is it?

 

[sanctus]

Still: one cannot satisfy howlers...it is what they do... it is what keeps them feeling alive, vital and a part of a movement...because their internal lives are so very empty. Dig deep into their 'causes', there is very little accomplished other than the 'safety of braying in large numbers to fill the news and up the anxiety / hatred notch' ...

Afirmation of the truth in Will Shakespeare's words: "Much ado about nothing."

I repeat: Promises were made and promises are being kept - it isn't a difficult concept is it?

I think such a statement is presumptious. Because the political agenda of pacisfists differs from others does not mean to suggest they lead empty lives. Most pacifists that I know live quite fulfilling lives, including myself. To suggest they have accomplished "nothing" because you dis-approve of their politics is not a fair statement to make.

 

[sanctus]

Sanctus, you barely addressed directly Tracy's point with just a "....You certainly have made a compelling point. however,..."

Unfortunately I think you really just don't see it.

But let's move on to the point you and particularly Mabudon's posts about Iraq being better
off without American troops. You all might be right.

But...

you may be ignoring developing changes...

The news is reporting the absence of Shia attacks, the retiring of Sadr temporarily, the
quiet of the Shia militias, and even of Sadr's loss of some power over shia militia, and even
some cross accusations between the Shia analyzing some of their own mistakes in the
retaliatory killings against Sunni.

This is helpful. That leaves only the Sunni insurgents.

This is a fast changing war, changing its character each year, so that most talking heads
are often left behind talking about something that no longer is, like toy Generals fighting
the last war.

In the end the peace we envisioned before may not be the way we get peace now,
for Baghdad might become a totally shi-ite city to be in peace.

We might all be too sanctimonious (including me) in thinking we are comfortably right
about what to do in Iraq.

And as far as not putting every nation through the same hypocrisy test on Darfur,
it looks pretty clear about the mob thinking on that matter.

There is much wisdom in your words, I do not deny it. and unlike some of my ardent pacifist friends, I do not pretend to have a ready answer for every world problem. I do know that I believe passionately in peace as an alternative to war, that I admire non-violent resistance, as given us by men like Jesus and Ghandi, very much. I truly believe that as a world it is time we have those amongst us reminding us of peace, bringing into the conciousness of the public so that at least it may begin to be thought about.