Protests across Canada denounce wars in Iraq and Afghanistan

tamarin

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Jun 12, 2006
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Mabudon, most African states are failed states. I would include South Africa there. Riddled with crime and corruption, shamefully boasting one of the highest rape levels in the world, it is certainly no showpiece for democracy or egalitarianism on the continent. Not far away is the former Rhodesia, now Zimbabwe, clearly a basketcase. Strewn throughout the continent are other woefully desperate nations: Somalia, Nigeria, Sudan (Darfur) and more.
The end of apartheid has been no great panacea. And, as usual, it has allowed us to expect even less of its succeeding government.
 

MikeyDB

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Jun 9, 2006
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As an aside here before I get my shoes on and head for work....

AlQaeda have taken responsibility in a press release today for the bombing of the U.S.S. Cole and the U.S. Embassies in Africa. Perhaps they wanted to have a war dya think?

Surprise? Not really.

Let's for a moment pretend that America wasn't involved in fomenting the hostilities in Afghanistan...Let's pretend that America doesn't spend more on "military" for "defense" than any other nation on earth...let's pretend that a six-foot two inch two hundred and sixty pound man beats on a five-foot two one hundred pound woman....

Is that woman behaving as a terrorist when she burns his clothing and breaks his golf-clubs...or is she doing what she can to bring attention and possibly change to her situation?

When asymetrical warfare practiced by the United States ...through support of terrorists ..Chiquita Bannana...."Big Sugar" all over the carribean....Exxon and the American petroleum cartels....declare war for profit (oops that's a concept of the former U.S. administration...see Paul Wolfowitz)....establishes civil war and covert military interventions all over the place....remembering that the American military is the largest (at least budget-wise) what options are left...?
 

mabudon

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Mar 15, 2006
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Uhhh- apartheid is South Africa, if you wanna get technical, and since that was not an answer to my question which was actually ON TOPIC (I wanna know if, anti-war in the middle east protests are anti american the same way as anti apartheid protests were Anti African, which is what has been implied numerous times in this thread)

I should start another thread about Africa since there's almost as much BS spread about that continent of "uncivilized ingrates who just wanna kill each other"

So, were anti apartheid protests anti african? a REAL answer, preferably from someone who has decried anti-war protests as simply expressions of anti american sentiment (and I don't doubt there's some who feel that they are protesting the US in general, but these would be foolish, better to focus on a particular expression of a trait than the entire entity)
 

EagleSmack

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“As anyone who has bothered to read this far certainly knows by now, bin Laden is the heir to Saudi construction fortune who, at least since the early 1990s, has used that money to finance countless attacks on U.S. interests and those of its Arab allies around the world.
As his unclassified CIA biography states, bin Laden left Saudi Arabia to fight the Soviet army in Afghanistan after Moscow’s invasion in 1979. By 1984, he was running a front organization known as Maktab al-Khidamar - the MAK - which funneled money, arms and fighters from the outside world into the Afghan war.
What the CIA bio conveniently fails to specify (in its unclassified form, at least) is that the MAK was nurtured by Pakistan’s state security services, the Inter-Services Intelligence agency, or ISI, the CIA’s primary conduit for conducting the covert war against Moscow’s occupation.
By no means was Osama bin Laden the leader of Afghanistan’s mujahedeen. His money gave him undue prominence in the Afghan struggle, but the vast majority of those who fought and died for Afghanistan’s freedom - like the Taliban regime that now holds sway over most of that tortured nation - were Afghan nationals.
Yet the CIA, concerned about the factionalism of Afghanistan made famous by Rudyard Kipling, found that Arab zealots who flocked to aid the Afghans were easier to “read” than the rivalry-ridden natives. While the Arab volunteers might well prove troublesome later, the agency reasoned, they at least were one-dimensionally anti-Soviet for now. So bin Laden, along with a small group of Islamic militants from Egypt, Pakistan, Lebanon, Syria and Palestinian refugee camps all over the Middle East, became the “reliable” partners of the CIA in its war against Moscow.”

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1245.htm

Thanks for the insight Eaglesmack….

Quoting the source was your first mistake. Information Clearing House is nothing but left, anti-American propaganda. Nevertheless in your quest to prove me wrong you have proved nothing. Nobody said that Bin Laden wasn't there in Afghanistan. What I said was that he was not trained by the CIA as the other post stated... nor was the Taliban even in existence. Members of the Nothern Alliance fought against the Soviet Occupation as well as other tribes but the Taliban did not poke its head out of Pakistan until the occupation was over. They picked up the pieces.
 

MikeyDB

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Jun 9, 2006
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What's happening in Iraq and Afghanistan aren't isolated incidents. The practice of American corporate involvement in foreign nations...while holding the government of "We the people.." hostage to votes and bucks for the next opportunity to wage war of various kinds on anyone deemed "Anti-American...(this means anyone not prepared to abandon ownership and rights to the American cartels of greed) is an established fact of history. Why do Americans insist on pretending otherwise?

Are Americans content to ignore their acquiescence to the juntas and regime-change...to say nothing of supplying weapons to terrorists from Iran and Nicaragua to Columbia and Chile....in hopes that the world will forget who's behind the lions share of these situations?

Stop lying to yourself America!
 

MikeyDB

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Jun 9, 2006
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Eaglesmack

Why would you suppose that I'm never suprised when an American discounts any article or evidence that illustrates the corruption of American business and government? Do you honestly believe that I can't find hundreds if not thousands of pieces of information that is capable of clearly establishing the culpability of several American administrations...Iran-Contra---Bay of Pigs-----Gulf of Tonkin----East Timor----Chile-----the list is endless...

Do you dismiss these articles because they don't offer the "preferred" line of propaganda that the Republicans of the "Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave"...gulp down in huge globs or is it that you simply refuse to entertain any perspective at odds with the "American Dream"?
 

AndyF

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Jan 5, 2007
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mabudon:

I don't take lightly my criticism of the US, and I do so with distaste, and I don't feel hate but sadness. The citizenry is misinformed due partly to their government (national media gagging), and partly themselves through a self assurance that no one can touch them. Why listen to informative impartial European programs such TV5 or some Arab television when Uncle Sam will tell you everything you need to know?. They know so little of other nations viewpoints that they can't even put things in perspective if they wanted to.

There was a time I put my life on the line for them and I spent 3 years in their military. It was in the 60's that I did my tour of duty coming out with honours, an offer to OCS, and a promotion. I came home instead but I could have stayed. I was a naive Canadian teen who believed in what I thought was a great president, and so held their principles up very high, unaware of the CIA overthrows that were occuring, the United Fruit assasination and the coverups. Later there came Canadians who gave their life in Vietnam for their cause not knowing about these dirty tricks and only revealed when statutes of limitation on information were lifted.

I remember a wholesome US that was, and one where no legislation would be passed on a rush. That has all changed now. A great percentage of their entertainment is military oriented and a lot more indicators of the military bloodlust we see today, unsurpassed except for the newsreels of WW2. They have become so obstinate and self assured because of power, they don't even try to cover their tracks anymore. CBC ran a poll after 9/11 and that was the conclusion globally. Why just the other day they were caught trying to trump up a false accusation about Iran. CNN and ABS were quickly told to play it down. This stuff is routine to them.

There is alot I can't verify for sure, but we also have data by reading the signs and it's just has valid, and this time the indicators point at this conclusion. In fact I believe the US can't live with peace, they don't remember what that is. They've caused so much turmoil off their own turf that I think they will have a long and hard payback period, and it will be "Fort Apache the Bronx" for them for at least 50 years. But at least they can lessen the inevitable if they simply stay out of other people's business.

AndyF
 

Curiosity

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Jul 30, 2005
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This is a U.S. blog - about the U.S. involvement in Iraq - but I don't dare start a U.S. topic....not today...especially not here.



http://www.floppingaces.net/2007/03/19/1234-what-in-the-world-are-the/

1,2,3,4 What In The World Are They Protesting For?

Posted by Scott Malensek on March 19, 2007 at 9:59 AM

Operation Iraqi Freedom is now 4 years old. Back around this time in 2003, the largest gathering of anti-war protesters in history convened around the world to put pressure on the United States not to remove a dictator from power. They didn’t march to put pressure on the dictator to give in to the will of the world at the United Nations. They protested the liberators not the oppressor. Protesting against dictators, terrorists, and thugs just seems to lack the same festival atmosphere. It’s so much more interesting, easy, (and a lot safer!) to protest against someone like President Bush.

1500 days or so later, there’s still a war going on in Iraq. People can say all they want about how it started, how it’s been fought, and how it’s going right now. Both sides of the political debate are pretty well entrenched and have their talking points in order by now (both facts and distorted facts). What’s most important, and what’s the least debatable is the path forward. That path forward from today to tomorrow, and in the next few years to come, is already spread out, already known, and it makes protesting against the war laughable at this point.

There are simple realities that the anti-war protesters do not recognize, but are quickly coming to understand:
  1. President Bush is not going to pull US forces from Iraq unless it is a secure place with a stable government, and an American ally. He’s not gonna do it, and even the brightest member of Code Pink ought to realize that after 4 years of protesting.
  2. Democrats ran a national campaign in 2006 promising a New Direction In Iraq, but they never had a plan. Gov. Dean admitted to that on election night (LINK). It was a political campaign lie to get the support of those who oppose the war in Iraq. Reflexively, the excuse people offer is that Democrats have only had power for X days, weeks, or months, but if they promised a plan, then they should’ve had the plan at the time, and there’s just no way to pretend that presenting such a campaign core idea-such a critical matter of national security and interest deserves a backseat to raising the minimum wage (the first thing elected Democrats chose to do instead of presenting their New Direction In Iraq plan)
  3. Since Democrats never had a plan, since they lied and pandered to the American people, and since they hold power over a lame duck President now, the power of the purse is in their hands. If they REALLY want to end the war, then they would barter and trade anything with Congressional Republicans to get the votes to end it, but making tax cuts permanent in exchange for votes to end the war is too high a price. Why? Because they don’t really care. The DNC’s agenda is more important than their patriotic campaign promise to the protesters. Those who promised the New Direction In Iraq don’t care about what happens in Iraq. They’ll say they want America to succeed, or that they want an end to the war, but they only say it like they’d say they want to win the lottery. If they really cared, they’d do something. They’d give up any agenda items to make it happen. Non-binding resolutions don’t change things. There’s no such thing as non-binding change. The war in Iraq is just a political crutch to get into power. In 2004 it might have been a political crutch for Republicans to hold power, but today, it is a Democratic Party tool for taking power.
  4. And this brings us to our last simple fact: people, who protest President Bush, Vice President Cheney, etc., are protesting the wrong politicians and are serving as political tools for the very same politicians who do not care about the war, who promised a New Direction In Iraq, who lied, and who continue to demonstrate that their political agenda is more important than anything else.
What is the aim of today’s anti-war protester?

Back in 2003, people who marched in the cold sleet of a Washington DC spring were respected. They sought to buy more time for inspections or for intelligence to seek answers to the questions of the threat posed by Saddam. It didn’t work, but they tried, and they tried because they believed they could make a difference. Today, that’s not the case. Anyone who thinks that President Bush is looking out his window and is moved by the festival-like atmosphere of a 2007 anti-war protest is being foolish. 5000 people dressed in costumes, dancing to reggae, and insulting him is simply not going to make him change his mind.

This week’s anti-war protests were filled with calls for the impeachment and incarceration of President Bush, Vice President Cheney, and the drafting of their daughters. Does anyone really think that Democratic Party leaders who control Congress were listening? They’ve already said that impeachment is off the table. So, what was the point, and why demand the President’s impeachment in protests outside The White House if the people on Capitol Hill are the ones who decide impeachment?

Some demanded resignations. They wanted President Bush or Vice President Cheney to resign. Brilliant idea! If the President resigns, then there’s President Cheney. If Vice President Cheney resigned, then President Bush could choose a new Vice President and we’d have a new Gerald Ford scenario, but perhaps with someone who is running for President and could then run as an incumbent…someone like Senator McCain or Mayor Rudy. That’s probably not what the protesters would like, but they demand it just the same. Demanding that the President and/or Vice President resign or be impeached is an idea that comes from a crowd of one-move chess players.

This week’s anti-war protests were-as usual-packed with demands of the President that he just order troops home. Why would he do that? Why would he so radically alter his thinking, so deeply change his course, and acquiesce to the demands of people who so clearly hate him? When elected in 2000, most of the nation didn’t approve of him. His poll numbers have had spikes, but average around 40%, and at least ¾ of those people are not out in the crowds calling for his resignation, impeachment, incarceration, and/or imprisonment. Can anyone really picture President Bush looking out that window, and thinking that if he just pulled out American forces, America would love him like never before? After 4 years of protesting, and 7 years of opposing him, does anyone think that poll numbers matter one iota to this administration?

The anti-war movement of 2003 has decayed into a useless and misguided rant and rave effort which seeks to vent political frustrations rather than pursue solutions. If it was solutions oriented, then the target audience of protesters wouldn’t be the President, Vice President, Republicans, or even average Americans. If the anti-war movement was solutions oriented it would mass outside Capitol Hill instead of across from the White House, and the protesters would demand their much vaunted and promised New Direction in Iraq. They would demand Democrats end the war as promised, and do anything to make that happen, pay any price, accept any tax cut, and agree to any Republican initiative if it brought about an agreement to bring the troops home.

While token protests are taking place in the halls of the Democrats’ Congress, and at the home of Speaker Pelosi, most protesters still cry out with the vain idea that somehow they will change President Bush’s thinking, and he will suddenly do anything to get their approval.

The leaders of today’s Democratic Party, Speaker Pelosi, Majority Leader Reid, Senator Clinton, Senator Obama, Chairman Dean…these people have already come out and admitted that the US will have to keep troops in Iraq. They say they’ll bring “the troops” home (often using the term “combat units”), but then they toss in the caveat that they’ll leave tens of thousands of “advisors” “logistics personnel” and “special forces” in Iraq even if they control both houses and the White House in 2009. At the same time, they rightfully expect and surely will still get the votes of the anti-war protesters in 2008. Why? Because opposition to the war has become primarily opposition to This Administration and no longer seeks what it claims: an end to the war in Iraq.

It’s been said that insanity is the act of doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. By that standard, Americans can turn on their TV’s-our windows to the world-and see protesters making the same claims as always, and making them to the wrong people as they have for four years now…still expecting that they’ll make a difference.

Why? Because facing those 4 facts above would mean that protesting 4 years ago isn’t the same as protesting the war today. It would be a call for people to once again protest with the intent of seeking results rather than just venting political frustrations. It would mean that today’s opposition to the war is really just opposition to a President irregardless of the reasoning.

On November 7th, 2006, a very good friend called with great pride and a new found sense of representation. Democrats had taken Congress, and as a fervent Bush-hating, anti-war Democrat, he was thrilled. When asked what he’ll do if the Democrats failed to provide their New Direction In Iraq, he said they would have to either Put up or Shut up.

Perhaps it’s time to ask those elected Democrats to either Put up a real change in the direction in Iraq, or to shut up. Either the Democrats need to barter and get the votes they need to create a New Direction In Iraq, or they need to shut up. Either protesters need to protest the people who control the direction of the Iraq War, or they might as well shut up. Maybe that's why there's only a few thousand protesters 4 years into the war as opposed to the millions who protested before the war; millions of people who already realize the reality of the New Direction In Iraq lie.
 

sanctus

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So we deserved 9/11? 3000 people deserved to be killed? Well at least we know where you stand.

Did you find enjoyment on that day?

I don't suppose she meant you deserved it as much as you may have partially been to blame. US foreign policiy over the past fifty years has created a great many enemies for your country. It was only a matter of time before one of those enemies returned the "favour" your operatives have committed on so many others. Have the lot of you forgotten Vietnam? Or S. America? Or any of the other places your operatives have killed innocent people?
 

sanctus

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Sanctus

I appreciate what you are trying to demonstrate here that peace and its cries to be heard are far more powerful in the advancement of mankind than war. I agree totally.

I beg you however not to use the fallible analogy comparing the Civil Rights Movement and Dr. King's eloquence and his far sighted pleading - when speaking of today's current professional "peace protesters" who mock all that is good.

Perhaps you are not aware there are paid activists who move around from place to place organizing these events, stirring up rhetorical hate and if their message is "peace" ....
It is hate.

I disagree. I am a paid member of the CanadianPeace Alliance, and attend meetings from time to time. What I have encountered are sincere, honest people who truly desire an end to war as a means of settling our problems. In fact, I attend personally as many of the protests as I am able. I am usually joined by a dear friend, Sister Mary Elizabeth, a very conservative elder lady who at one time marched with Dr. King in your country. Even if it seems like hate, I cannot see how saying "peace" is hateful or anti-American. It is not a cry against America, but against violence of all kinds. Your government and its foreign policy are one of the leading potential causes for world destruction and this too we protest. A great artist once proclaimed, "War is over, if you want it", and these words echoe also in my heart.
 
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jimmoyer

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It is way too tedious and time consuming to debunk the myths parading as facts
or to argue another angle from wrong-headed conclusions from the so-called facts
presented in this thread.

Now, wasn't that tedious just to read that ?

So let me jump ahead to the real picture that concerns me.

And let me emphasize this bigger picture does justice to both sides.

The US is certainly in trouble, and the critics are right even if some of their individual
facts are just myths or wrong-headed spin.

Those still seeing good in the US also are also valid.

You wonder at the selective blindness in both sides.

Don't you ?
 

jimmoyer

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Are they free yet? Or do you and the English have more people to kill first? -----m_levesque

The Iraqis certainly know that after the Americans leave, the French will be the
first concerned citizens to jump in and risk life and limb to ensure law and order there.

Or not...

If only America disappeared tommorrow, would the world be able to look in a mirror
and see its own righteous hypocrisy.

As if they're concerned about Iraq...

Not...

Proof is you can see NOT ONE NATION in the world willing to shed its sons and
daughters for Darfur, as they pontificate about American morality.

What's more important is the Holy Grail of bashing (rightfully the USA) that blinds them
to every other detail, every other issue, every other nuance, every other matter.
 
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I think not

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What's more important is the Holy Grail of bashing (rightfully the USA) that blinds them to every other detail, every other issue, every other nuance, every other matter.

Now now Jim, that would suggest a level of morality he doesn't posess.

That includes the plastic preacher up there.
 

tracy

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Nov 10, 2005
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Are they free yet? Or do you and the English have more people to kill first? -----m_levesque

The Iraqis certainly know that after the Americans leave, the French will be the
first concerned citizens to jump in and risk life and limb to ensure law and order there.

Or not...

If only America disappeared tommorrow, would the world be able to look in a mirror
and see its own righteous hypocrisy.

As if they're concerned about Iraq...

Not...

Proof is you can see NOT ONE NATION in the world willing to shed its sons and
daughters for Darfur, as they pontificate about American morality.

What's more important is the Holy Grail of bashing (rightfully the USA) that blinds them
to every other detail, every other issue, every other nuance, every other matter.

I want to believe that all these peace activists really care about their fellow man and would really do something to help them, but I don't see it from some of them. I don't know if living down here has given me a different perspective, but last month when I went home I saw what you see more than ever before. My parents were complaining about Darfur and said something about how the US wouldn't send troops there because they didn't have oil. I'd never call my parents anti-American and they are caring people, but I thought that was such a hypocritical comment. My response probably shocked them, but I asked them what Canada was willing to do about it and what they were willing to do about it? Were they willing to send THEIR son over there to fight and die for people they'd never met? Doubtful. Would those peace activists? Or would they just use their oh so obviously ineffective protests to try to persuade the Sudanese to be nice and then return to their safe comfortable bed every night?

This is putting me in a bad mood. I should read the happy threads.
 

AndyF

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Agree. Mabudon's first post to me is a prime example of bad debating: Excluded middle, or false dichotomy.

ie: Any disagreeing with the American Policy, is an indicator of hating America
.

AndyF



 

gopher

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sanctus said:
That is true. And it is funny that some people react with hostility to the concept of peace, as if the very idea was never to be considered. We fall victim to war because in general most people do not think outside of the box. Men like Dr. King, who non-violent ethics influenced the world, are seen as exceptions. But let's not forget the millions who heard, and still hear, this message.

Amen! Like it says in the Bible, you have wars because ye are full of lust -- James 4:1,2

Jesus is the Prince of Peace, not of war and it is time for the profaners to know it.
 

sanctus

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I want to believe that all these peace activists really care about their fellow man and would really do something to help them, but I don't see it from some of them. I don't know if living down here has given me a different perspective, but last month when I went home I saw what you see more than ever before. .

There are probably peace activists with ulterior motives, just as in any organization. But does that make the goal any less worthy?
 

sanctus

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Amen! Like it says in the Bible, you have wars because ye are full of lust -- James 4:1,2

Jesus is the Prince of Peace, not of war and it is time for the profaners to know it.

Well yes, but let's not forget that many of the people involved in the peace movement are not Christians. As a Christian myself, I do not believe that God intends for us to kill one another and I reject totally the concept of a "just war". There is no justice in war, only death.
 

mabudon

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AndyF- could you explain that for me, maybe even via PM- I'm not bwing goofy, I am really interested in getting rid of some bad habits and re-reading the post you referenced I can't quite figure out where my "mistake" was- thanks for reading either way tho, makes these "conversations" more fun when folks check them out right :D