Poll:- life better now or in 1959?

[JLM]

"“It is a rare breed of conservative indeed, who will support gay marriage.”"

Gay marriage is a very poor criteria on which to judge conservatives or anything for that matter. It's a fairly new concept as customs go and some of us take a little longer to get used to it than others. In 20 years most of the popuation will have some degree of tolerance towards it. It won't be divided down Political lines.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

When you give them freedom, it should always be within certain parameters, like freedom to do whatever you like as long as it doesn't inflict harm to yourself or others. Like when you give your kids "freedom" why should it be any different from when the King or President gives his subjects "freedom"

Freedom is always within certain parameters, JLM. Especially about not doing others any harm, that is what the laws are for. If you behave in a way that will cause harm to others, most of the time such a behavior is illegal.

As to doing harm to oneself, well, that is the right of the individual. A person has the right to do harm to him or herself, suicide is legal in Canada and USA.

And I am really talking of adults here, children do not deserve full rights as adults. They are still very much under the supervision of their guardians. Why, parents are even allowed to spank them, use corporal punishment (though I don’t approve of it).

 

[Mowich]

Likewise Mowich, I supported the N.D.P. for about 30 years (even card carrying for a few). NOw I have ABSOLUTELY no use for ANY political party. As far as philosophy goes- N.D.P. is perfect - where everyone wants to pull his weight and work for the common good. In practical terms I'm probably mid way between liberal and conservative, liberal in trying to be open minded and conservative in looking after my resources and believing that a little discipline and self-restraint doesn't hurt, liberal in terms of knowing there is also a time for generosity.

I understand what you are saying, JLM, I just happen to one of those people who believe that if you are in for a penny, you should be in for a pound. :smile:

The Conservatives I know are very open-minded people and are extremely generous people in that they are always ready and willing to step up and help a friend or neighbor out. They too believe in pulling their own weight as they know it benefits the common good by doing so.

We don't beleive in blank checks however as the NDP would like to see. We believe in accountability and personal responsibility - two concepts that the NDP have a tough time understanding.

 

[Mowich]

Okay, SirJP, I stand corrected. I jumped the gun.

 

[countryboy]

Sure it would be better, but it doesn’t work that way, JLM. Once you give people freedom, teach them to think for themselves, to question authority etc., you cannot then turn around and say to them don’t use foul language, respect your elders etc.

They themselves have to think these things through and come to a conclusion about these things. Some will conclude that foul language is bad, others won’t. Some will respect the elders, others won’t.

Now personally, I have never used any kind of foul language, ever. I just never get that much angry, mad, frustrated (perhaps life has been too good to me, I don’t know). To me, logic trumps emotions like anger, frustration, bitterness every time, and I have never found a need to use strong language of any kind (incidentally, neither has our son, at least never in our presence. He saw that we never use foul language, and he followed our example without us saying anything to him). But that is just me, others may come to different conclusions.

When you give people independence, teach them to think for themselves, the outcome is going to be good and bad. You have to take the rough with the smooth.

Hey SirJP...You must be lotsa' fun at a party! Have you ever let your hair down and just had some fun? You should try it sometime, although you'd have to climb down off your lofty and all-seeing, all-knowing platform of pure logic and mix with us common fools who, all too often, get "emotional." I read somewhere that emotion is the one thing that sets us apart from animals, but maybe I misunderstood.

I'm probably more conservative than Mowich (she's likely doing a big lol right now at the word "probably"). And I have nothing against gays and in fact used to work with some. I myself am "straight" but I figure being gay or straight or whatever isn't really all that important in the big scheme of life. Being kind and considerate to others is something that is important, but I digress (sorry, it's that emotional waste of time stuff again!)

I think you might be confusing yourself a bit with your impression of what a conservative really is these days. I can't speak for all of them (even though I know you can), but I believe a conservative is kind of like a liberal, with common sense added.

We (conservatives) do have a problem with simply throwing "stuff" against a wall to see how much of it sticks and how much slides to the floor. We like to take a minute to see if we can improve the results by testing the viscosity of the "stuff" to see how it might stick, and possibly make a few adjustments before we actually hurl it at the wall.

That ability to anticipate results and do what we can to influence the outcome of things to everyone's benefit is likely why we have cross-Canada railroads these days. I think John A. was a Conservative, right?

So you see, we're not all mindless control freaks (no, you never said that, I know...I'm just making that up based on some of the things you've written)...we just operate a bit differently than you do.

It does take all kinds to make things happen and liberals are no exception. Politically, I am happy to see them in the Opposition benches in Parliament. They can't cause as much trouble on that side of the House. I know it's hard on their elitist egos to be on the "wrong" side of the house, but they're just going to have to put up with it until the voters let them loose again.

And I'm just as happy to see Prime Minister Harper on the other side of the House...that way, there is more of a chance of something worthwhile actually happening.

I am pretty convinced you won't get emotional about any of this (!) and I am sure you have a far more academically-sound and well thought-out response to what I am writing, and I am quite sure it will be stated more eloqently than I ever could hope to write, but as (I think) you (would) say, I am entitled to my opinion.

- Humbly submitted to a much higher authority on life by a simple, down-home country boy with straw in his hair and cow dung on his shoes. Please forgive me for being so simple and earthy (and emotional!)... :lol:

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I understand what you are saying, JLM, I just happen to one of those people who believe that if you are in for a penny, you should be in for a pound. :smile:

The Conservatives I know are very open-minded people and are extremely generous people in that they are always ready and willing to step up and help a friend or neighbor out. They too believe in pulling their own weight as they know it benefits the common good by doing so.

I can well believe that, Mowich.

 

[lone wolf]

Ahh... Joey has proclaimed his perfection over a new crop. WE all simply MUST learn to accommodate His way .... NOT!

 

[countryboy]

Freedom is always within certain parameters, JLM. Especially about not doing others any harm, that is what the laws are for. If you behave in a way that will cause harm to others, most of the time such a behavior is illegal.

As to doing harm to oneself, well, that is the right of the individual. A person has the right to do harm to him or herself, suicide is legal in Canada and USA.

And I am really talking of adults here, children do not deserve full rights as adults. They are still very much under the supervision of their guardians. Why, parents are even allowed to spank them, use corporal punishment (though I don’t approve of it).

"...suicide is legal in Canada and USA"

I can see why. What penalty could you possibly impose on the offender?

 

[JLM]

I understand what you are saying, JLM, I just happen to one of those people who believe that if you are in for a penny, you should be in for a pound. :smile:

The Conservatives I know are very open-minded people and are extremely generous people in that they are always ready and willing to step up and help a friend or neighbor out. They too believe in pulling their own weight as they know it benefits the common good by doing so.

We don't beleive in blank checks however as the NDP would like to see. We believe in accountability and personal responsibility - two concepts that the NDP have a tough time understanding.

Right- on all counts (which more less coincides with my repeated messages to S.J. that you can't tar everyone (Liberals or Conservative) with the same brush.

 

[countryboy]

Sure it would be better, but it doesn’t work that way, JLM. Once you give people freedom, teach them to think for themselves, to question authority etc., you cannot then turn around and say to them don’t use foul language, respect your elders etc.

They themselves have to think these things through and come to a conclusion about these things. Some will conclude that foul language is bad, others won’t. Some will respect the elders, others won’t.


Now personally, I have never used any kind of foul language, ever. I just never get that much angry, mad, frustrated (perhaps life has been too good to me, I don’t know). To me, logic trumps emotions like anger, frustration, bitterness every time, and I have never found a need to use strong language of any kind (incidentally, neither has our son, at least never in our presence. He saw that we never use foul language, and he followed our example without us saying anything to him). But that is just me, others may come to different conclusions.

When you give people independence, teach them to think for themselves, the outcome is going to be good and bad. You have to take the rough with the smooth.

Meanwhile, back in circa 1959...

Speaking of elders and bad language, I remember my colorful Celtic grandfather (my father's side) using some "bad" words now and then. Well, more "now" than "then", I guess. He used to tell me that occasional use of bad words made the good ones sound better. As long as we never used them in female company.

My Mennonite grandmother (mother's side) once heard me using some of those words. She was pretty cool about it - I remember her telling me (I'm paraphrasing heavily from her low German and best broken English), "You should become a preacher, because you know all the words. You just have to learn how to use them in a more appropriate context."

What's my point? None really...just thought my Grandparents had an influence on my upbringing back in the 50s.

Re: Your Point: "When you give people independence, teach them to think for themselves, the outcome is going to be good and bad."

But, wouldn't it be nice to influence the outcome to be more good than bad? What would be wrong with that? A little human judgement in these matters surely would benefit the person receiving the independence, would it not?

 

[Mowich]

But, wouldn't it be nice to influence the outcome to be more good than bad? What would be wrong with that? A little human judgement in these matters surely would benefit the person receiving the independence, would it not?

Truly it would, countryboy.

 

[AnnaG]

In 1959 he could get away with it....

In 1959 he might have gotten thumped. Today he'd get killed.

 

[AnnaG]

Okay, you say you will become more and more liberal, but yet you say with liberalism there is bad that comes with the good- (no doubt the same could be said with conservatism). Wouldn't it be better to select the best traits of both and kind of mix them. The world would be pretty boring if everything was black, black, black or white, white white.

Right on the money, JLM.

 

[AnnaG]

You may not be a ‘Liberal’ Mowich, but you sound like a ‘liberal’ to me. It is a rare breed of conservative indeed, who will support gay marriage. Mainstream of conservative position is typified by Harper, that is, to support civil unions and oppose gay marriage.

Yeah, that's why Harpy repealed gay marriage, right? :roll:

So if you say that you are a conservative, I will take your word for it. But very few conservatives support gay marriage.

So you say. But then you say a lot of strange things.

 

[AnnaG]

Likewise Mowich, I supported the N.D.P. for about 30 years (even card carrying for a few). NOw I have ABSOLUTELY no use for ANY political party. As far as philosophy goes- N.D.P. is perfect - where everyone wants to pull his weight and work for the common good.

That's where we differ I guess. People should not be serving society. Supporting it yes, but not serving it. I like the pulling one's own weight bit, though.

In practical terms I'm probably mid way between liberal and conservative, liberal in trying to be open minded and conservative in looking after my resources and believing that a little discipline and self-restraint doesn't hurt, liberal in terms of knowing there is also a time for generosity.

I'm between libertarian and classical liberalism but I have a good sense of community.

 

[AnnaG]

What you state might apply if I and other Conservatives belonged to or supported the nazi party, but we don't. We belong to a party that recognizes not all of its members will be in 100% agreement about certain policies.

Before you decided to speak for 'all conservatives' maybe you should have held a poll?

Or at least dug up some surveys or stats.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

"...suicide is legal in Canada and USA"

I can see why. What penalty could you possibly impose on the offender?

It is a no brainer, isn’t it? Yet for a long time, suicide was illegal in most of developed world, I think it was the influence of Catholic religion (if you commit suicide, you are guilty of murder and hence go to Hell, according to Catholic beliefs, but not according to Protestant beliefs).

That was one instance where if the criminal was successful in committing the crime, he didn’t get punished, he got off scot free. But if he was unsuccessful, he would get punished.

Was suicide illegal 50 years ago? I don't remember laws about suicide, but it probably was.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Re: Your Point: "When you give people independence, teach them to think for themselves, the outcome is going to be good and bad."

But, wouldn't it be nice to influence the outcome to be more good than bad? What would be wrong with that? A little human judgement in these matters surely would benefit the person receiving the independence, would it not?

It most certainly would. However, that is the decision each person must arrive for themselves.

Now, I personally frown on vulgar language and would not permit it in my house. Not that our son has ever used it. But you cannot legislate morality.

 

[JLM]

It is a no brainer, isn’t it? Yet for a long time, suicide was illegal in most of developed world, I think it was the influence of Catholic religion (if you commit suicide, you are guilty of murder and hence go to Hell, according to Catholic beliefs, but not according to Protestant beliefs).

That was one instance where if the criminal was successful in committing the crime, he didn’t get punished, he got off scot free. But if he was unsuccessful, he would get punished.

Was suicide illegal 50 years ago? I don't remember laws about suicide, but it probably was.

Yep, suicide was illegal, a few years back - probably 30 or so now. What do you mean you couldn't be punished, we don't know that, a guy could wind up doing 10000 years in purgatory. There's probably more about this life and it's adjuncts that we don't know about than we do. WE don't want to be so short sighted that we think this short span of 70 years or so is the be all and end all. We simply don't know.

 

[countryboy]

It most certainly would. However, that is the decision each person must arrive for themselves.

Now, I personally frown on vulgar language and would not permit it in my house. Not that our son has ever used it. But you cannot legislate morality.

I used to think that vulgar language had its place (and I guess I still do - old habits die hard)...for example, useful in emphasizing a strong point. As you know, I was brought up in a particular time and place where "bad words" were not to be spoken anywhere near females. This seemed to work quite well, as everyone pretty much conformed to this practise.

But, during the mid-late 60s, I noticed that it was becoming more acceptable to use these words in a public setting, no matter who might be present. I attribute that to the permissiveness that grew quickly during the "flower power" cultural change in Canada and the U.S. (the "hippy daze"). Interestingly, it seemed to me that one of the first "cultural bastions" to break down this language barrier was the hallowed halls of higher learning. The first time I heard a university professor utter the "F" word in a lecture, I almost fell off the chair.

Eventually, this language found its way into the movies and now we hear all kinds of bad words on television too. I hear it all the time on the street, from very young children...I am fond of calling it "mall rat language." It's a bit disappointing to a father to hear any young children expressing their disrespect of others, especially in such vulgar terms.

I guess the liberal types like to shrug their shoulders and say, "It's just the price of freedom." I disagree. I think it's an indication of a shifting value base - less respect for other people, complete disregard for the impact one's behaviour might have on others, and perhaps even a decrease in self-respect.

More extreme viewpoints say that it is leading to a general breakdown in society. There might be some truth to that, in that disrespect for others can easily become disrespect for law and order. Especially when the values begin to deterioriate...it can become hard to tell right from wrong.

Currently, freedom does seem to come with a price but I'm wondering if we're going to see a steady increase in the "Freedom Price Index." It could become costly for our entire society. In fact, we might be there already...we just have the costs buried well.