Poll:- life better now or in 1959?
- Thread starter JLM
- Start date
Some liberalism is good and some is bad. I'm not too concerned with old farts like us, I'm not likely to change very much and you are not going to change at all, but I am concerned with the younger generations. I believe in the postive aspects of liberalism, like the ability of kids to think for themselves and problem solve for themselves, but the other hand I find it pretty disheartening when I'm down town or at 7/11 and see them just hanging around and using language without any concern whatever for who their audience is. When I was a kid I could outswear almost anyone and still can but had the ability to figure out when and where is the time and place. We generally weren't deliberately insulting. Kids are probably smarter today than 50 years ago, but what they gained in intellect they've lost in common sense. Anyway that's my take on the subject.
Fifty years ago I was a LOT more selective about where I did locker-room. It wasn't out of the ordinary for the long arm of the law to knock one into next Tuesday - sans repercussions - for being disrespectful.
THEN ... you'd get it at home too.
THEN ... you'd get it at home too.
I am not going to change? I have changed my views a lot over the past 40 years or so, the latest being on gay marriage (20 years ago I would have been opposed to gay marriage). Indeed, that is the difference between a liberal and a conservative. A liberal moves with times, a conservative stays where he is. Since time is advancing all the time, it leaves the conservative stranded in the past.
So speak for yourself, my views are evolving all the time. I am 60 years old, if I live to be 80 or 90, I have no doubt that I will be more liberal, more progressive then than I am now.
That is the consequence of liberalism, JLM. You have to take the good with the bad. At its base, liberalism is about more freedom, about giving people more choices, whether it is in the area of reproductive services, homosexuality, religion etc. Liberalism teaches people to think for themselves, and not be slave to a book like the Bible or Koran.
One inevitable aspects of liberalism is that people are going to question all the taboos. And some of them are going to reject all the taboos, good and bad. Perhaps you and I may agree that respect of elders is important (mainly because we are elders ourselves). However, when younger generation is taught to question everything, some of them are going to question this as well.
Freedom, independent thinking comes with a price.
I still remember the day my then, 18-year-old sister told our Mum to @$%& off. She was promplty grounded for an entire month - just as summer vacation was starting.
Until that moment, it had never been heard in our house. If Dad used it, his daughters sure never heard him. The worst thing you could say was s*&t and that could earn us a night or so without any TV. The fact that she had had the temerity to use it before an adult almost seemed to open the door for other not so nice words to creep in. As time went on, s*&t became more and more acceptable and though @$%& was never acceptable under any circumstances, other risque words came in its place.
Until that moment, it had never been heard in our house. If Dad used it, his daughters sure never heard him. The worst thing you could say was s*&t and that could earn us a night or so without any TV. The fact that she had had the temerity to use it before an adult almost seemed to open the door for other not so nice words to creep in. As time went on, s*&t became more and more acceptable and though @$%& was never acceptable under any circumstances, other risque words came in its place.
You want to lighten up, S.J.- that first statement of mine was mainly tongue in cheek, but since you are taking it seriously tell me during the past couple of years that you and I have been debating, one opinion you held where you've changed your mind, or once said "you were right I was wrong"
Speaking as a CONSERVATIVE - a card-carrying member of the party in fact, I take acception to what you wrote about us never changing, SirJP. I too held similar beliefs 20 years ago regarding gay rights of any sort, today I too support their right to marry.
I too, have changed my opinions on many things over the years. I once was a Liberal until I saw the light. :lol:
I too, have changed my opinions on many things over the years. I once was a Liberal until I saw the light. :lol:
Okay, you say you will become more and more liberal, but yet you say with liberalism there is bad that comes with the good- (no doubt the same could be said with conservatism). Wouldn't it be better to select the best traits of both and kind of mix them. The world would be pretty boring if everything was black, black, black or white, white white.
You can blame me for that one (spoken tongue in cheek) S.J. has enough on his shoulders (most of it dug up himself :lol::lol::lol::lol
You may not be a ‘Liberal’ Mowich, but you sound like a ‘liberal’ to me. It is a rare breed of conservative indeed, who will support gay marriage. Mainstream of conservative position is typified by Harper, that is, to support civil unions and oppose gay marriage.
So if you say that you are a conservative, I will take your word for it. But very few conservatives support gay marriage.
Sure it would be better, but it doesn’t work that way, JLM. Once you give people freedom, teach them to think for themselves, to question authority etc., you cannot then turn around and say to them don’t use foul language, respect your elders etc.
They themselves have to think these things through and come to a conclusion about these things. Some will conclude that foul language is bad, others won’t. Some will respect the elders, others won’t.
Now personally, I have never used any kind of foul language, ever. I just never get that much angry, mad, frustrated (perhaps life has been too good to me, I don’t know). To me, logic trumps emotions like anger, frustration, bitterness every time, and I have never found a need to use strong language of any kind (incidentally, neither has our son, at least never in our presence. He saw that we never use foul language, and he followed our example without us saying anything to him). But that is just me, others may come to different conclusions.
When you give people independence, teach them to think for themselves, the outcome is going to be good and bad. You have to take the rough with the smooth.
Likewise Mowich, I supported the N.D.P. for about 30 years (even card carrying for a few). NOw I have ABSOLUTELY no use for ANY political party. As far as philosophy goes- N.D.P. is perfect - where everyone wants to pull his weight and work for the common good. In practical terms I'm probably mid way between liberal and conservative, liberal in trying to be open minded and conservative in looking after my resources and believing that a little discipline and self-restraint doesn't hurt, liberal in terms of knowing there is also a time for generosity.
What you state might apply if I and other Conservatives belonged to or supported the nazi party, but we don't. We belong to a party that recognizes not all of its members will be in 100% agreement about certain policies.
Before you decided to speak for 'all conservatives' maybe you should have held a poll?
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Nobody changes their minds in debates like this, JLM. These debates only serve to exchange ideas, rather than change anybody’s mind. Also, I said my views are evolving, they are not undergoing a jump shift. Two years is too small a time for any significant evolution to take place.
And I am sure I have said once or twice that I was wrong and you were right (I am sure I got facts wrong a couple of times and later acknowledged it in the forum).
When you give them freedom, it should always be within certain parameters, like freedom to do whatever you like as long as it doesn't inflict harm to yourself or others. Like when you give your kids "freedom" why should it be any different from when the King or President gives his subjects "freedom"
I did not say I speak for all conservatives, Mowich. You have to learn to read my posts, a few posters have problems understanding my posts (though I fail to understand why, to me, my posts are always quite clear).
I said the following in my previous post.
“It is a rare breed of conservative indeed, who will support gay marriage.”
“So if you say that you are a conservative, I will take your word for it. But very few conservatives support gay marriage.”
This does not say that I speak for all conservatives. What it does say is that an overwhelming number of conservatives oppose gay marriage, but it does not say that all conservatives oppose gay marriage. What I am saying is that while a few conservative here and there may support gay marriage, most of them oppose it.
When Paul martin first brought gay marriage bill before the Parliament, I think only 2 or 3 Conservative MPs (out of almost 100) voted for gay marriage.
So clearly I did not say that all conservatives oppose gay marriage.
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I don't buy that. I like to change my opinion and have done so on occasion and been thankful for someone elses point of view that I hadn't thought of. (I know I'm not supposed to end a sentence with a prepostion) We form our opinions from contacts we've made with people and situations and unless you've encountered all people and all situations, your opinion is not 100% Change is necessary for growth.