Ontario to fund more private clinic surgeries in bid to stabilize health-care system
- Thread starter The_Foxer
- Start date
I'll concede that the current mess the country (all provinces) find themselves in is not something that happened over a single gov'ts term, or even arguably two or three. This has been brewing everywhere since before 2000, athough at least a few gov'ts did make serious efforts to improve along the way. And we did know this was coming since the 90s - it was no secret and spoken about loudly that when the boomers hit retirement the system as designed would not be able to continue to function. That has now happened and unlike most "dire warnings" about the future this one has come to pass pretty much exactly as predicted.
So sure - if we're talking about how we got here you can't pin it on any one gov't and splitting hairs over who ignored it the most would be an exercise in tribalism. As i said, i'll concede the point to you.
However we were discussing the future rather than the past. And i would argue that's a different story.
As to the federal involvement they actually have a rather huge role to play. Well - two huge roles actually.
The first is that they provide funding. The entire system was modeled on the premise that the feds provide half the funding and the provinces provide the other half. Tax rates and structures were set up with that in mind. That lasted all of 10 minutes before gov't started chipping away at it, with it bottoming out at 18 percent under paul martin's watch. Harper managed to get it back up to 30 ish and trudeau has let that slide a few points down to about 25ish. But not only is funding important but the GUARANTEE of funding is critical. Under harper he promised X dollars per year for a number of years into the future. That lets provincial gov'ts plan and make commitments to build new facilities and such because tehy know the money will be there. Under trudeau that's vanished with the libs just making up an amount at whim with no guarantee of what it will be next year.
So both amount and reliability of money is critical. And federal.
THe second and equally important thing is approval of new ideas. The Canada health act allows the feds to cut off all funding if the provinces break the rules as to what represents "public" health care and how it's provided. So if the feds decide something the provinces want to try is a violation in their minds, it's not going to happen.
So the feds can provide a great deal by sending the clear message that if a province wants to 'think outside the box' and try something different then they'll be supportive of that and not cut funding. They can share research and sponsor collaborations between provinces as well. They can also establish performance requirements for wait times and service delivery to spur the provinces into action - provincial gov'ts hate long term planning because they're often not around to get the credit for the results but they ARE around to take the flack for raising taxes or cutting services.
There is much that can be done by both the provinces and the feds IF the gov't (especialy federal) is willing to do the right thing without worrying about the politics of it. The CPC has indicated that they're willing to do that (PP has as well if he wins).
AI and robotics are coming to healthcare. If there is an industry that can use AI, it will. Healthcare is one of those industries.
Korean robots are going to replace Filipino RNs and techs.
Look it up.
Korean robots are going to replace Filipino RNs and techs.
Look it up.
Dude last time i was at the hospital they were still filling out the charts with a bic pen. Full automation may still be a little ways off.
Dude a you needed to do was look...
Over the years, artificial intelligence (AI)–enabled computer vision and data analytics have transformed health robotics, expanding capabilities into many other areas of healthcare. Robots are now used not only in the operating room, but also in clinical settings to support health workers and enhance patient care.
https://www.intel.ca › healthcare-it
Technology applications in healthcare are growing fast. The global healthcare robotics market is predicted to reach $11.4 billion by 2023, and the market for artificial intelligence in healthcare has the potential to reach $36.1 billion by 2025, according to BID Research and ReportLinker, respectively. While robotics and AI may benefit healthcare in many ways, implementing these technologies requires healthcare leaders with skills and foresight.
To learn more, check out the infographic below created by Maryville University’s online bachelor’s in healthcare management program.
Over the years, artificial intelligence (AI)–enabled computer vision and data analytics have transformed health robotics, expanding capabilities into many other areas of healthcare. Robots are now used not only in the operating room, but also in clinical settings to support health workers and enhance patient care.
https://www.intel.ca › healthcare-it
Robotics in Healthcare: The Future of Robots in Medicine - Intel
Technology applications in healthcare are growing fast. The global healthcare robotics market is predicted to reach $11.4 billion by 2023, and the market for artificial intelligence in healthcare has the potential to reach $36.1 billion by 2025, according to BID Research and ReportLinker, respectively. While robotics and AI may benefit healthcare in many ways, implementing these technologies requires healthcare leaders with skills and foresight.
To learn more, check out the infographic below created by Maryville University’s online bachelor’s in healthcare management program.
I did look. At an actual hospital. And doctors offices.
Here's the reality. The medical profession in Canada hasn't even kept up with technology that's 20 years old. They still fill out forms and patients charts by pen, requiring later data entry by someone else. Doctors don't even use email or the internet in many cases to confirm or remind patients of appointments,, a technology my barber has mastered. For most provinces the technology is lagging badly.
Which tells me that while the tech may be out there to automate healthcare delivery, the medical systems in Canada are very slow adapters and it's going to be a long long time before we see it. Not to mention the fact that the unions will fight it tooth and nail.
So you havent looked into it? Good for you. Its the best way to not learn.
Robots dont have Unions.
Robots dont have Unions.
What is wrong with you today? What kind of elementary school nonsense is this. I've explained my point clearly, if you have any evidence to the contrary other than the link to an online american university which offers NO insight into canadian health systems then by all means present it, but this is just childish nonsense.
Yes - that's the problem. People however DO have unions and their unions are not going to be interested in their membership's jobs being replaced by robots. That would WEAKEN the people's unions, and the people's unions won't like that one little bit. So they will be resistant to it.
As i noted Canadian health care is not making use of the CURRENT technology that could make things more efficient and provide better services. Which leads me to think that they might be very slow adapters to the NEXT generation of technology even tho it's available. Our medical systems are very slow adapters. Unfortunately that's one of the major downsides to publically provided health care, there's little incentive for them to stick their necks out and put in the work to make improvements to how services are delivered. For a politician the payoff comes way too late, and if it goes well they won't be there to benefit and if it goes badly someone will blame them and their party.
I gave a long long list of references. Click away.
Killing the Unions is all part of the goal. Its Unions and management that is killing healthcare.
Surgical assistant robots (SARs)have been around since 2006 in Canada. AI is already in use using these machines and are already in your local surgical center. What once took 3 surgeons to do is just 1 now.
Get with the times dude.
Killing the Unions is all part of the goal. Its Unions and management that is killing healthcare.
Surgical assistant robots (SARs)have been around since 2006 in Canada. AI is already in use using these machines and are already in your local surgical center. What once took 3 surgeons to do is just 1 now.
Get with the times dude.
Not one was relevant to what i said. Is this conversation too complex for you or something?
And the unions will, unsurprisingly, resist that. Which makes it very hard to transition. It's not like you can just say "tomorrow we don't need nurses" and ignore them.
And yet have not been widely deployed at all. Which rather highlights my case.
No. It isn't. It's barely being tested in canada. It is not in widespread use at every local surgical center. Which strongly suggests you have no idea what you're talking about.
Get with reality. There may come a day, but that day is not here. And that's the comparatively simple to deploy tech of surgical 'assistance', we are light years away from deploying ai nurses.
You have access to hospital records and doctor offices? So you're a clerk of some kind?
Somewhat true, sure. Some parts of health care hasn't kept up with technology. And it's a pain in the ass for both patients, medical records and doctors when things aren't where they should be.
I don't know about where you are, but here, nurses enter notes on In Patients on the computer. Same with doctors. Dictation is done electronically. Emergency visits have recorded information done in pen, but that's because it's quicker than pausing to enter things in the computer. Data like labs, x-ray, consults are all online and accessible provided you have permission to access.
That's been a thing for years, it's called transcription. That was never not a thing.
LOL - wow, where you are REALLY is behind the times; I thought NB was bad, but at least that's not an issue. We also do personal calls though to check and make sure patients know the date/time of appointments if it's a specialist, but otherwise it's email or texts if a patient has opted in for those notifications.
Which brings to question - why?
So what is your opinion on why the provincial health technology isn't being utilized to where it should be?
Unions are there to "protect" their members. Think what you will of them, good or bad, if they didn't fight for their members, they would fail more than they already have.
Apparently he is out of the loop.
March 31, 2022
Already acknowledged as a Canadian leader in the adoption of surgical robots, the Queen Elizabeth II Health Sciences Centre (QEII) in Halifax recently added a new robotic device for knee replacement surgeries. Acquired in September 2021, Stryker’s Mako SmartRobotics system has been used to perform eight knee replacement surgeries as of the end of February, said orthopedic surgeon Dr. Michael Dunbar.
2014 for his "surgical center"...
www.kelownadailycourier.ca
Halifax, a centre of excellence for robot-assisted surgeries
BY NORM TOLLINSKYMarch 31, 2022
Already acknowledged as a Canadian leader in the adoption of surgical robots, the Queen Elizabeth II Health Sciences Centre (QEII) in Halifax recently added a new robotic device for knee replacement surgeries. Acquired in September 2021, Stryker’s Mako SmartRobotics system has been used to perform eight knee replacement surgeries as of the end of February, said orthopedic surgeon Dr. Michael Dunbar.
2014 for his "surgical center"...
New heart and surgical centre in Kelowna will have robot and state-of-the-art imaging
The Okanagan becomes a better place to get sick once new operating rooms open at Kelowna General Hospital next year.
Ok - ignore that first one, hit send before i even started to reply and couldn't figure out how to fix it 
Until very recently yes. And no, not a clerk.
And tablets are faster than pens. Certainly faster than a pen followed up by someone manually entering it later. It was just a simple example.
So everyone's happy to ignore it except the patients who really don't get a say.
Fun story - without details about the people involved there was a hospital administrator for an old age care facility who was confronted by and elderly resident who was refusing to get up for breakfast in time. The admin said "I know you want breakfast, you have to be up at 8 because that's when we serve it". "WHY?" asked the resident - I'm freaking retired, i like to stay up watching tv, why now that i'm at the end of my life and supposed to be relaxing am i forced to get up early every morning and get dressed and be down stairs by 8 am?
The admin went to reply .. .thought about it... couldn't come up with an answer. Why shouldn't the person be able to eat later if they wished? They wound up serving a continental breakfast of muffins, croissants and cereal and fruit and the like at 10 for those who wanted to get up later but still wanted something to tide them over till lunch.
In relaying the event the admin noted - "we've always served breakfast at that time since i was in nurses training 40 years ago. I honestly never even thought about it till the resident said something. I have no idea why it started but we just kept doing it because that's the way we've always done it. The resident was dead right but it simply never occured to me or anyone else i've worked with that we should do it differently".
And that only took a 10 min conversation with the staff to resolve - imagine something that actually takes REAL work.
Until very recently yes.
And no, not a clerk.True. And there's little excuse for it. Which was my point. And of course it's not the docs or nurses who are in charge of such things.
They are entered into computers eventually ,but if you go into a patients room and look at their charts... what do you see.
And tablets are faster than pens. Certainly faster than a pen followed up by someone manually entering it later. It was just a simple example.
If you're actually referring to someone typing what someone has recorded, that is mind meltingly inefficient and very 1970's, even if they're doing it electronically.
Well that doesn't happen much here. I actually asked one specialists office (who called me after months) to send me an email with the info for the appointment i was making as i was driving and couldn't write it down. and she flat out said they don't use email and she couldn't send it to me. I call for a haircut appointment and 30 seconds later i have a text and get a reminder text before the appointment. But apperently that's too sophisticated for doctors
It does indeed.
As with all things it's a combination of factors of course, but i think the province is leaving the costs of those upgrades to the doctors, and the doctors feel they don't get paid enough as it is. Coupled with the fact there's not exactly competition out there right now so the doc can say piss off if you don't like how i do things go somewhere else, and the fact that nobody (for reasons i'm unclear about ) has strung up the gov't over their horrid performance on health care so there's no drive for them to do anything to fix it
So everyone's happy to ignore it except the patients who really don't get a say.
Fun story - without details about the people involved there was a hospital administrator for an old age care facility who was confronted by and elderly resident who was refusing to get up for breakfast in time. The admin said "I know you want breakfast, you have to be up at 8 because that's when we serve it". "WHY?" asked the resident - I'm freaking retired, i like to stay up watching tv, why now that i'm at the end of my life and supposed to be relaxing am i forced to get up early every morning and get dressed and be down stairs by 8 am?
The admin went to reply .. .thought about it... couldn't come up with an answer. Why shouldn't the person be able to eat later if they wished? They wound up serving a continental breakfast of muffins, croissants and cereal and fruit and the like at 10 for those who wanted to get up later but still wanted something to tide them over till lunch.
In relaying the event the admin noted - "we've always served breakfast at that time since i was in nurses training 40 years ago. I honestly never even thought about it till the resident said something. I have no idea why it started but we just kept doing it because that's the way we've always done it. The resident was dead right but it simply never occured to me or anyone else i've worked with that we should do it differently".
And that only took a 10 min conversation with the staff to resolve - imagine something that actually takes REAL work.
Well regardless of my feelings about their 'protection' - wouldn't you say that kind of makes my point? they're going to resist automation like crazy?
Ok - ignore that first one, hit send before i even started to reply and couldn't figure out how to fix it
Until very recently yes.
So a nurse then? You work Medical Records? Health Information Management of some kind? Or are you a super secret squirrel position that you can't openly talk about?
Not in charge, but should have input. That's part of the problem with technology; it's shoved down our throats without our input into whether it actually will make things better or worse.
LOL - certainly not a patient's chart, that's for sure. And if you are going into a room and seeing a patient's chart, I cry BS that you know what you're talking about.
A patient chart should NEVER leave a nurses station unless it's taken to the head nurse's office or some other office of medical personnel. It should NEVER be accessible to anyone outside of Medical personnel. If it is, it is a HUGE breach of confidentiality and the person who has left it out is in serious trouble. If you work health care, you know this.
They are not 'eventually' entered, rather they are entered when a nurse is done doing what needs to be with a patient. Vitals might be jotted down and entered into programs, but actual nurses notes are on computer. Meds, on computer. Orders, those are written on an order sheet then input into the computer (because hard copies on charts are good to have). Consults? Faxed away and order entered. Results like lab and x-ray? Online. EKG? Online.
Certainly nurses may take COWS into a room and use them to put in information but not every nurse chooses to use it, as some find actually writing things down 'faster'.
A nurse using a pen is the one that enters the information later; whether using a COW or pen then entering later on computer, the information is still put into a computer. Your 'simple example' isn't so simple.
LOLOL!!
Okay, sure. You obviously haven't had to go through Medical Records and the reems of dictation tapes that were saved back in the day from doctors, about patients, that are now being tossed out because they're no longer viable and there is no modern equipment to even access the tapes.
Micro-film is a storage PITA. Though at one time it was "the tech of the future" for medical records. Of course it wasn't...
Well that doesn't happen much here. I actually asked one specialists office (who called me after months) to send me an email with the info for the appointment i was making as i was driving and couldn't write it down. and she flat out said they don't use email and she couldn't send it to me. I call for a haircut appointment and 30 seconds later i have a text and get a reminder text before the appointment. But apperently that's too sophisticated for doctors
Or maybe they just opt out of it for personal reasons? Considering the stories about how emails can be 'mis-sent' to people, while you may be okay with someone getting your proctology appointment time, not everyone may be as 'okay' with that mistake as you are. Confidentiality is a big issue a lot of doctors are hyper-aware of to the point of being paranoid.
Combination of factors, yes.
Costs on doctors - depends on what it is.
Docs are saying a lot of 'piss off' about things, but it's not just for lack of competition. There are lots of reasons why docs fight against anything Government may try to bring in to 'help' health care - the big issue being the 'help' turns out to not be so helpful.
As for people not stringing up Government - some places have. Where I work they threatened to shut us down, and five other small, 'rural' hospitals. That didn't end well for Higgs at the time, then Covid hit and people were GLAD we weren't shut down.
Now we're limited open hours due to lack of staffing, all because of the threat of closing from 2 years ago. And lack of staff being hired, period.
LMAO - no, just... hell no. No one is "happy" about any of this, and patients... they have a lot to say, but a lot of it is said in ignorance of what is actually going on.
Great they changed the way things were for patients.
Hospitals are different than care facilities.
While you can somewhat equate the two, you can't totally equate them.
Not really. Cause even if they have to fight for their members, I've seen changes in the Union due to automation. It's a matter of working with the union to blend both mechanical and actual people instead of denying one or the other.
I realize those on the left enjoy doxxing people and often provoke for personal information but that's really inappropriate. How about you send me your name and contact phone and details and once i've confirmed your information you can feel free to ask me personal questions.
Sure they should but the point was they can't really be blamed for the decisions that lead us here.
Uhhh... you.. ahhh you realize you're arguing my point right? You're actually agreeing with me, did you realize that?
Even if the information is accessible it's a 'pain in the butt' as you say. Modern tech allows for much more efficient entry methods AND search and retrieval methods. Soooooooo.... thanks for agreeing i guess????
No, that's just kind of dumb. There would be no reason to include what the appointment is for, and if they wished they could ask consent before using text or email. Everyone does that. Its pretty simple. They don't do it because they don't feel bothered enough to change. Docs are saying a lot of 'piss off' about things, but it's not just for lack of competition. There are lots of reasons why docs fight against anything Government may try to bring in to 'help' health car
Ahhh - so you're saying doctors have a moral objection to communicating with patients using modern tech. I see. You feel that's a pretty reasonable position do you. How do you explain the doctors who DO use more advanced tech (like email which has been around for 30 years now), as was mentioned previously?
IF the doctors have a better idea (and better isn't defined as more convenient for them even if it screws the patients) then great, propose it. But at the end of the day the gov't is in charge of providing solutions and not doctors and if the doctors disagree with the gov't solutions they can have their professional bodies speak out.
Not in the voting booths which is where it matters.
God your english is bad. I said they're happy to ignore it. Not that they were happy about it. They may think it sucks but they are very comfortable not doing anything to actually fix it. Honestly it's like i have to hold your hand through each sentence.
And yes they are quite happy by and large as groups to ignore the issues being discussed specifically. That's when they're not out and out actively fighting change such as many nurses unions etc.
If you could pay attention before responding, that'd be a help. Makes you look more credible as well.
Very true. The point of the story was more about how sometimes we just do things because that's always how we've done them and we don't think about it. It was a simple solution, they put all that stuff out for the regular breakfast, to put it out again for a short time later was no bother and didn't increase costs.... but nobody took the time to think about it before then. It wasn't meant to suggest all the hospital's problems could be fixed like that.
Really really. The fact that they've lost some of those fights and might well lose further ones doesn't mean they won't fight it and delay things.
LOL.
For the record, doxxing is absolutely disgusting and anyone who does it deserves not only jail time, but a LOT of it considering what it does.
A simple 'yes/no' would have sufficed. I mean, I'm not asking for personal deets here but you're making some claims that I highly suspect to be absolute BS. If you're a nurse or work Medical records or something, then maybe you MIGHT have a bit more credibility. After all, you're the one who said that you had access to medical records but weren't a clerk. So I was just wondering how you can claim such a thing and if it was legit. As it is, right now I'm going on you're full of absolute BS and your opinion is just that, a lot of your input on the matter doesn't come from personal experience or knowledge like you keep implying.
You want my name, my phone number and details, you best be asking me out on a date, first.
You sure come across like they should be blamed though, so...
I realize you missed the point, sure.
Oh FFS...
Yes, modern tech allows for more efficient entry and retrieval methods. YOU are the one claiming that it's not being used though...
Again, FFS.
True, they're not going to be specific to what test/consult/appointment you have. But they WILL say "Hi, this is Dr X's office and your appointment for X is X..." and if you still fail to see why some doc's might have issue with that, then I dunno.
Which they do. You come to our ED, we now have a question to ask for notifications of appointments via phone or text or email.
Just cause that's what you think, doesn't make it so.
Uh huh, there are, but stuff like this isn't one of them really.
I suggest they MIGHT have an objection to it because of cases of an email going to the wrong person, or perhaps someone looking at an email of a patient who shouldn't. It's a "who might see this" breech of confidentiality. And if that's their position, it's legitimate.
They do, it's called "A phone call".
They can, and do, but a lot of times Government doesn't listen because Government thinks it knows better.
Yeah, when it comes to voting about health care, Joe Public doesn't make informed decisions because they only know part of the problems going on.
My statement still stands; you assume people are 'happy', they're not.
Your personal opinion, not actuality.
You and Jin need to start a fund.
If you say so.
And I'm not denying the point of your story.
But health care is more than care facilities. Which is why I brought up that in hospitals that wouldn't work.
If you say so.
I realize this convo is dead in the water, but thanks for trying.
You'll understand that considering you were trying to get personal information out of me it seems a little hard to believe you're fully invested in that opinion
I said they are not the ones that get to make the decisions -and you some how took that as they should be blamed for the decisions? I think that may be the sound of your preconceived ideas talking.
Well one of us did but unless you're referring to the one on the top of your head it probably isn't me
No, the original mention was voice recordings - which you also mentioned as being annoying for several reasons especially older ones. Dictation into voice files is neither a modern nor efficient way to do things.
Let me speed through some of the rest of your drivel:
Doctors in many provinces don't use email as i related. So no. You're wrong. Again.
It is moronic to think that doctors would have a problem with putting in writing that someone has an appointment with them. they fill that same info out slips of paper to that effect all the time which would be even easier for someone else to come across, and people could opt out if they had an issue. It's a silly thing to suggest.
Telephones are not modern technology. We've had them for quite a while now. But emails and web portals are, yet many doctors do not use them.
IF voters aren't making informed decisions and you feel the gov't isn't providing that knowledge then it's the fault of the medical professional associations. However - i've noted they generally only present information in a light that favours them. Sorry - there's no white hats there. They're just as guilty.
Your statement was wrong in the first place because you didn't comprehend what was being said, claiming it still stands is doubling down on a lack of comprehension. That's not a great look.
It's not personal opinion - it's observation. Sorry.
If you're finding mulitple people are finding you childish, then it's probably not a problem with the people. You should address that.
And you're welcome. I realize you didn't get most of it but i never regret giving people an opportunity to learn.
You'll understand that considering you were trying to get personal information out of me it seems a little hard to believe you're fully invested in that opinion
So the only thing I'll say to you, in finality, is that dude, I was in no way, shape or form wanting personal information from you. If asking whether you were a nurse or Medcial personnel of some other kind who is able to access confidential records 'personal information' then... you have a lot more issues than it seems.
But thank you for the laugh tonight, it's made the night a little better at least.