Ontario Commits Over $11 Billion to Build First Phase of High Speed Rail

Jinentonix

Executive Branch Member
Sep 6, 2015
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I'm afraid that I'll have to agree with that one. Has anyone done a real marketing study or is this some sort of "Jetsons Modern we-have-to-keep-up" thing? There aren't enough of us to ever make it pay.
Bingo. Even a high speed corridor between TO and Montreal would be hard pressed to to stay out of the red.
And if this proposed route to Windsor is going to follow the same route that VIA currently uses (route, not rail line) then what is the sense in having a high speed train doing a milk run?
 

Curious Cdn

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 22, 2015
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The 401 between Montreal and Toronto is busyish but not that busy. Cars do not make up much of the volume, either. This one is a bigger looser than an Olympic games.
 

Hoid

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Oct 15, 2017
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Where Ontario really needs help is from the US border to Toronto. The truck traffic over the Windsor and Sarnia crossings needs to be reduced somehow. Large freight moving trains would be a help here.
 

Curious Cdn

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Feb 22, 2015
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Where Ontario really needs help is from the US border to Toronto. The truck traffic over the Windsor and Sarnia crossings needs to be reduced somehow. Large freight moving trains would be a help here.

Sorry, but high speed rail is passengers only and trucks are most of the traffic.. Besides, what do those passengers do when the disembark at the nearest Amtrac station over the border? Wouldn't you rather have your car with you? I'll bet that most would. "Build it and they will come" is an exceedingly bad plan when $14 billion are to be spent.
 

White_Unifier

Senate Member
Feb 21, 2017
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Where Ontario really needs help is from the US border to Toronto. The truck traffic over the Windsor and Sarnia crossings needs to be reduced somehow. Large freight moving trains would be a help here.

I agree that Canada definitely needs to build more North-South rail lines between Canada and the US. Nationalism aside, just from the practical standpoint of transportation costs, It makes more sense to promote trade between Montreal and New York City than between Montreal and Vancouver for example.

Even from the standpoint of poverty-reduction, reducing transportation costs by promoting more trade between Montreal and New York City than between Montreal and Vancouver for example could help the poor too by reducing overhead transportation costs that businesses must pass on to consumers.

That said, if we are to promote more regional free trade, then we might need to invest more in trades and professional education for the unemployed to help truckers transition to new employment for example.

Sorry, but high speed rail is passengers only and trucks are most of the traffic.. Besides, what do those passengers do when the disembark at the nearest Amtrac station over the border? Wouldn't you rather have your car with you? I'll bet that most would. "Build it and they will come" is an exceedingly bad plan when $14 billion are to be spent.

If we're talking about high-speed rail (which is the case here), then yes, that's passenger-only beyond maybe light freight like mail maybe. Even with that though, it could make more sense to promote more North-South lines between Canada and the US and then just take advantage of the US' East-West lines due to the US having more population density. It would be a win-win situation. Canada saves money on not needing to build as many East-West lines in low-population-density zones and the US makes money off of Canadian passengers. For example, the US might then have an interest in building an East-West line across the Northern states and the more populated centres to take advantage of the Canadian market.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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We can all forget a better deal with Uncle Sham. That country is doomed. Thier broke and the Chinese have them by the bonds, which they are starting to squeeze gently at first. The economic boom of rebuilding America will be a great Chinese project.
 

White_Unifier

Senate Member
Feb 21, 2017
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We can all forget a better deal with Uncle Sham. That country is doomed. Thier broke and the Chinese have them by the bonds, which they are starting to squeeze gently at first. The economic boom of rebuilding America will be a great Chinese project.

Of course I was talking more I theory above. The US would have to meet a few criteria first:

1. The POTUS would have to be smart enough to understand how cooperation could benefit the US itself.

2. The POTUS would have to understand that Trades and cooperation doesn't need to be a zero-sum game.

3. The POTUS would have to want to cooperate with other states even if only for its own benefit.

The Present US administration is not smart enough to understand any of this.
 

Curious Cdn

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 22, 2015
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I agree that Canada definitely needs to build more North-South rail lines between Canada and the US. Nationalism aside, just from the practical standpoint of transportation costs, It makes more sense to promote trade between Montreal and New York City than between Montreal and Vancouver for example.

Even from the standpoint of poverty-reduction, reducing transportation costs by promoting more trade between Montreal and New York City than between Montreal and Vancouver for example could help the poor too by reducing overhead transportation costs that businesses must pass on to consumers.

That said, if we are to promote more regional free trade, then we might need to invest more in trades and professional education for the unemployed to help truckers transition to new employment for example.



If we're talking about high-speed rail (which is the case here), then yes, that's passenger-only beyond maybe light freight like mail maybe. Even with that though, it could make more sense to promote more North-South lines between Canada and the US and then just take advantage of the US' East-West lines due to the US having more population density. It would be a win-win situation. Canada saves money on not needing to build as many East-West lines in low-population-density zones and the US makes money off of Canadian passengers. For example, the US might then have an interest in building an East-West line across the Northern states and the more populated centres to take advantage of the Canadian market.

Those North-South connnections used to exist all across the country but they withered and died and the tracks were torn up as reliable automobiles on good superhighways and air travel between everywhere and everywhere ended that phase of our continent's development. If people really preferred to travel by train, the private railways would have got back into it, long ago. The CPR got right out of the Quebec-Windsor rail business in the mid '60s and the transcontinental traffic a decade later because they hemorraged money. The CNR persisted in both because it was a crown corporation forced to by the Feds (and they hemorraged money. VIA inherited that sorry loser mandate.

Build it and they will come?

Canadians do not want to travel on trains for the most part, anymore. You are not going to modify their behaviour by building high speed rail for use only in a tiny corner of the country. What a waste of seriously big money.
 

Danbones

Hall of Fame Member
Sep 23, 2015
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Yeah whoever thought that up was high on speed rails
:)


 

White_Unifier

Senate Member
Feb 21, 2017
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Those North-South connnections used to exist all across the country but they withered and died and the tracks were torn up as reliable automobiles on good superhighways and air travel between everywhere and everywhere ended that phase of our continent's development. If people really preferred to travel by train, the private railways would have got back into it, long ago. The CPR got right out of the Quebec-Windsor rail business in the mid '60s and the transcontinental traffic a decade later because they hemorraged money. The CNR persisted in both because it was a crown corporation forced to by the Feds (and they hemorraged money. VIA inherited that sorry loser mandate.

Build it and they will come?

Canadians do not want to travel on trains for the most part, anymore. You are not going to modify their behaviour by building high speed rail for use only in a tiny corner of the country. What a waste of seriously big money.

True. I was thinking more that if we must build rail, then North-South would make more sense that East-West. And perhaps freight would make more sense than passenger rail. But yes you're right that before any rail is built, the government needs to assess the market for it. With an increase in the gas tax, maybe. But even then, for that much money, the government should be sure of what it's doing. In fact, even if it might become a good idea in the future, even that does not mean that it would necessarily be a good idea today.
 

Retired_Can_Soldier

Rock Hard Member
Mar 19, 2006
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Unfortunately, so do conservatives. When was the last time a conservative government in Canada had a balanced budget?

When's the last time a lap dog Liberal didn't try to blame his corrupt party's shortcomings on a conservative?

We hear this all the time. Chretien, "It was Mulroney's fault we didn't cancel the GST."
McGuinty and Wynne, "It's Mike Harris' fault we cancelled the gas plant and tried to cover it up. It's Mike Harris' fault we erased hard drives and emails to cover our ass. It's Mike Harris' fault the Ontario Pension Plan never amounted to anything, even though we kept the money we took from Ontarians."

As to balanced budgets. The only balanced budget I've seen from a Liberal was Paul Martin as finance minister. How he balanced that budget was by raiding EI, ripping off every province by cutting transfer payments and downloading costs and reaping the financial benefit of the GST. Which was brought in by a Conservative.

But go ahead. Embrace a corrupt government.

I'd expect nothing less from someone who has drank so much blueberry kool aid his avatar turned blue.
 

Murphy

Executive Branch Member
Apr 12, 2013
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And you should consider backing up your words with something other than, "I said so."
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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Divide and conquer. Silly buggers, there is no right or left, liberal or conservative. They are just actors playing a role to give you the illusion of choice. "There is no choice. They own you."
 

taxslave

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Nov 25, 2008
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Unfortunately, so do conservatives. When was the last time a conservative government in Canada had a balanced budget?




Depends on whether you want real high speed rail. Considering that 160 is the max speed for Via it doesn't stack up well against other high speed rail in Europe and Asia.

Just before trudOWE became PM. SAme for BC just before the dippers seized power.

11 Billion would build a lot of highway. SOme thing that is a lot more useful than a couple of miles of traintrack.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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Divide and conquer. Silly buggers, there is no right or left, liberal or conservative. They are just actors playing a role to give you the illusion of choice. "There is no choice. They own you."

They own you. I don't rely on Govt to feed me, house me, and pay for my meds.

You are the slave of Govt.

If it weren't Govt taking care of you, it would be the Church.

You can't make it on your own.
 

Murphy

Executive Branch Member
Apr 12, 2013
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He wants to sit on the executive of the Young Liberals of Canada one day. It's actually cute. He should really be trying to woo Jagmeet however.