Omar Khadr....
- Thread starter dancing-loon
- Start date
Did I say the Korean experience was a vacation? Reread my posts. Given that a couple of Koreans were executed, most men were beaten and the women were at risk of rape, I'd say they were better off than going through the experience which lead to being tortured and detained indefinitely at Guatanamo.
Of all the people the US and its allies have taken prisoner in Afghanistan, how many were executed within a few days. I bet more than two. How many were beaten? How many experienced various types of torture? How many Koreans were subjected to sleep deprivation, mind altering drugs, simulated drowning, loud noise, physically restrined in painful positions, attacked by dogs, sexually humilated...?
Yes I still want to draw comparisons. The Koreans were treated extremely badly by the Taliban, but they were still treated better than the people who end up in American longterm torture facilities.
In Taliban culture, they shelter their guests. The Taliban did not attack the US and in fact initially condemned the events of 9/11.
Their position was that OBL was not involved in 9/11. Technically OBL's involvement in the events of 9/11 has never been proven by any legal process. He is alleged to have been involved.
The US wanted to bomb Afghanistan and put US soldiers on the ground to fight. The Taliban could have kept out of it, but instead, they refused the US permission to attack and kill people in Afghanistan. You'd have to understand Afghanistan culture to understand why they would do this, even if they disagreed with OBL. They were sympathetic to OBL, but they were more focused internally, and were mostly focused on trying to win a simmering civil war.
Regardless, when the US said let us bomb your country and send soldiers into to kill people, the Taliban refused. That's when they became our enemies.
The Taliban never attacked the US, but that didn't stop the US, Canada and the rest of the foreign invasion force from attacking them and killing thousands of innocent civilians. People have a UN recognized right to use violence to defend themselves from violence resulting from foreign invasion forces. We invaded their country, we attacked them. Our violence against them resulted in their violence against us.
Lets put it this way, they were more justified defending themselves from foreign invaders, then say the US was in invading Iraq.
The Talian resorted to terrorist tactics to defend themselves and have committed war crimes. But lets be clear that we started the fight with the Taliban, not the other way around. Some of them may be guilty of war crimes. But most of them have behaved and fought according to ancient Afghani warrior code.
A different approach which was more sensitive to their culture and recognized their obligations to their "guests" might have avoided war with the Taliban.
People captured while defending their country from hostile invasion forces should be recognized and treated as POWs. Locking them up indefinitely, subjecting the torture and not following any recognized legal systems or respecting any international treaties or laws, doesn't automatically make us the "good guys" here.
Khadr's lawyer makes final push to have charges dropped
Omar Khadr's U.S. military defence lawyer will try this month to have charges against his client tossed out – launching what may be the final legal broadside against the U.S. government before the detained Canadian's trial is expected to start in October.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl.../National/home
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I hope his lawyer succedes.
Here is a photo of Mr. Kuebler...
Enlarge Image
Omar Khadr's U.S. military defence lawyer will try this month to have charges against his client tossed out – launching what may be the final legal broadside against the U.S. government before the detained Canadian's trial is expected to start in October.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl.../National/home
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I hope his lawyer succedes.
Here is a photo of Mr. Kuebler...
Enlarge Image
Reading your various postings it seems that your none too happy with the present state of affairs in the western world.
I find it doubtful that the present economic and democratic systems in place in most of the first world nations are going to be replaced or overthrown anytime soon.
I do sympathize with your position as a sort of spokesman cum fifth columnist for the wonders of the communist/socialist/nihilist/anarchist/whateverist downtrodden masses.
Have you ever considered taking a trip and visiting a few likeminded citizens?
For the non-religious, North Korea, China, Myanmar and those fun guys at Cuban Minint spring to mind.
For those who like a bit more historical commitment mixed with their politics there is always Syria, Iran, the "tribals" in Pakistan and those happy-go-lucky Wahhabi's in Saudi Arabia.
In the age of the internet reasonable cheap travel is possible as long as you are willing to fly on the less popular and somewhat crash prone "peoples or national" airlines of some of the Eastern nations.
Godspeed and keep us posted.
Trex
Or they hack their heads off. I would have condemed the attacks if I was the Taliban as well.
I suppose if you ignore all of the admissions and numerous claims to have been behind via video and audio to Al Jezzera. But I guess those were all CIA manufactured tapes.
No...the US wanted Bin Laden and told the Taliban government to turn him over. They refused and then we went in.
Well they made some fairly bad mistakes by allowing Al Queda to operate. Al Queda also suicide bombed one of the leaders of the Nothern Alliance so they were more than just "guests".
No, they became enemies when they harbored Bin Laden and refused to turn him over after 9/11.
See above reasoning as to why the Taliban was attacked.
The bulk of the forces then and now were other Afghans. At the outset we provided airpower and special forces and the Northern Alliance did the rest.
Let's be clear. There was already a fight going on between the Taliban and Northern Alliance. The Taliban saw an ally in Bin Laden and Al Queda. They were committing war crimes through out the entire civil war.
What is this "ancient Afghani warrior code"? Sounds colorful.
So we should have been concerned about their culture? Well guess what, perhaps Bin Laden should have been concerned with Taliban culture before he sent his stooges to fly planes into our buildings. Bin Laden as a guest of the Taliban should have known he was putting his hosts in grave danger and it is not in our culture to allow these things to take place w/o reprisals. He cost them their country.
Perhaps we could have turned them over to the tender mercies of the Northern Alliance. Most of the people sitting in GITMO aren't Afghans. Oh they were mostly caught there so one begs to ask the question...what were foreigners doing in Afghanistan during this time? Building mosques? Orphanages? Spare me.
Eagle Smack, you have one giant error in your head, saying the Taliban refused to hand OBL over to the US. They did not refuse! They asked for proof that OBL was guilty of 9/11. The US didn't respond, because they had no proof! Instead they started their blanket bombings.
What's odd about your doubt is that the adjustments you don't see happening anytime soon are in reality well advanced at this time. If you would examine the SPP/NAU continential agreements as well as the present irrepairable capitalist economy you might have cause to change your mind. You cavilierly use the word democratic as if it were a reality. A democracy of capital is not democracy.
I can't blame anyone for the discomfort experianced when facing change, but change is already in motion. In any case that change will accelarate more noticably in the next couple of months and you may be able to catch a glimpse if you pay attention.
They had plenty of proof including a video taped admission by Bin Laden. You are just one of those who believe it was an inside job.
I tend to believe it was an inside job, but am not entirely convinced after a conversation with LoneWolf.
As to an admission of guilt by Osama there are conflicting videos, and one can take a pick, but here is a statement from him denying to have had anything to do with 9/11:
http://tvnewslies.org/html/9_11_facts.html
like WMD stories against Saddam, but still destroyed or manipulated evidence and traces of money. The Saudi Arabian family of OBL was still guest in Oil business at the Bush family.
That came 2003, two years after his public wanted to celebrate him as such. In 2002 I saw in Harare malls the top fashion clothes showing OBL, as well for ladies as for gents. How should OBL deny longer, what the world wanted to and should believe. He got celebrated for that crime. But he was only leading hate prayer for a loose Hamburg cell of his Al Queida, which must have been influenced in their plans and actions by - yes, an inside job of CIA, what saved Bush jr. from early impeachment and gave generals new sense and direction for their passions.
Secret services like to exploit terrorists and take them as scapegoat, what is worldwide standard procedure. That's why they should get abolished. Before 9/11 Bush wanted to dismantle the CIA and reconstruct it from scratch. After 9/11 no more talk about, criminal faults of the past should be forgotten, all should look forward and stand together... US America started applauding him. They found their new Fuhrer and Bush jr. agreed in his new role.
Yes, an early one - with the pictures of the second tower got hit by an other plane plus a reporter talking about a later falling third tower, while that was still standing in the background of his live transmission. (I didn't know, the picture showed that building still standing, since I was not yet in New York, but analysts identified that later so.)
Sorry, data, I didn't pay attention to your post earlier.... only found it this morning. Excellent content, and I would like to pick up on the point of the CIA role in 9/11, as I learned years ago that a similar plot was executed but failed.... Kennedy at the time didn't come to their aid in the "Bay of pigs" fiasco.
Kennedy, like Bush jr., as you mention above, wanted to curb the power of the CIA, and they hated him for that to the point of assassinating him.
http://historymatters.com/pds/DP3_Chapter5.htm
From that we can see how powerful and independent the CIA is,... it is the most powerful intelligence agency in the world!.
It's been a while since Khadr was in the news. Now protesters and supporters have started on a week long activity to force Ottawa to bring Omar home.
Rallies were planned for Sunday to highlight the plight of Omar Khadr, a former child soldier who is the only Westerner still detained by the United States in Guantanamo Bay.
Demonstrators in Toronto were expected to march outside the U.S. Consulate. In Ottawa, the wife of Maher Arar was expected to be at a rally that will also include Amnesty International protesters.
A street theatre performance is planned in Montreal on Monday. On Thursday, the law society at the University of British Columbia will host a lunchtime speech on the issue.
Critics from around the world have said the American process is extremely unfair and have condemned Canada's inaction on the case.
http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/abc...r_khadr_081005
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I hope it will help! Wish I could be part of it!
Omar is one more reason for me not to vote conservatist
Rallies were planned for Sunday to highlight the plight of Omar Khadr, a former child soldier who is the only Westerner still detained by the United States in Guantanamo Bay.
Demonstrators in Toronto were expected to march outside the U.S. Consulate. In Ottawa, the wife of Maher Arar was expected to be at a rally that will also include Amnesty International protesters.
A street theatre performance is planned in Montreal on Monday. On Thursday, the law society at the University of British Columbia will host a lunchtime speech on the issue.
Critics from around the world have said the American process is extremely unfair and have condemned Canada's inaction on the case.
http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/abc...r_khadr_081005
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I hope it will help! Wish I could be part of it!
Omar is one more reason for me not to vote conservatist
The day Khadr is released will be the day hell freezes over. I have absolutely no mercy for this terrorist. Our Canadian troops faces casualties daily at the hands of the Taliban terrorists in Afghanistan, the very same terrorists that khadr was fighting alongside with. As one who unconditionaly supports our troops I find it deplorable that there are folks in this country who support a terrorist that was fighting alongside our enemy.
I find it deplorable that our government tacitly approves torturing 15 year olds. I support Geneva POW conventions and international laws regardless of the actions of our adversaries. Also there is no evidence which suggests Khadr had anything to do with the events of 9/11 or any attacks outside of Afghanistan. The Taliban weren't our enemy until we declared war on them. The Taliban were never implicated in the events of 9/11. They are guilty of not handing over Bin Laden as per US demands. They fought us when we invaded their country. Khadr had the misfortune of being born in the wrong family and living in the wrong plae at the wrong time. His alleged murder charges are in the context of war and based on what appears to be false evidence.
I agree with General Romeo Dallaire:
Is Canada ruled by rule of law or rule of the mob? That's what this case is about. What Khadr is alleged to have done is secondary to the fact that he was a child soldier and should have been treated as such.
I agree with General Romeo Dallaire:
Is Canada ruled by rule of law or rule of the mob? That's what this case is about. What Khadr is alleged to have done is secondary to the fact that he was a child soldier and should have been treated as such.
Under international law, our adversaries have just as much right to fight us in Afghanistan as we have in fighting them. Targeting civilians is a war crime by either side. I don't believe Canadian soldiers have crossed this line, but some of our adversaries and allies have. Attacking civilians makes one a terrorist. Attacking military targets makes one a soldier. Mines, IEDs, RPGs and so on, which have taken a terrible toll on our soldiers are legal tactics in war.
Does your belief in no mercy include what happened at Abu Ghraib and continues to go on in Gitmo and elsewhere? Does your version of no mercy include torturing children and locking them up indefinitely?
I support Canadian soldiers who serve Canada with honor. I support giving these Canadians and their families preferential health care benefits and access to education/employment. I support honoring them each year on Remembrance day.
What do you mean you when you say you unconditionally support our troops. Would you still support Canadian soldiers even if they committed war crimes and crimes against humanity? Does your unconditional support of the troops really just mean waving a flag when you see a military convoy and unconditionally supporting the politicians who sent them to Afghanistan. Does your unconditionally support mean supporting the mission even if it turns into a human meat grinder with no end in sight?
If the above describes your support that would make you one of the manipulated majority. Can't you find anything better to watch on TV than Jerry Springer and the O'Reilly Factor?
The bolded statement is incorrect.
They fought us when we invaded their occupied regions Afghanistan at the behest of the local government, who was unable to repel their foriegn occupation.
A bit of a hypocritical thing to blame our foreign army from dislodging their foreign army. If they wanted the moral high ground they could have kept in their own country.
That being said, I agree Khadr should be tried under the law. Even when we were losing to Nazi's we treated prisoners better than this.
Are you trying to tell me that a bunch of dark age peoples with basic small arms and crude explosives are more of a danger to us than a massive first world industrialized nation with superior weapons technology?
Perspective people.
Well, I support a young boy, a child. He has suffered enough by the hands of grown-ups. He should never have been held and tortured by the evil Americans!
Colorless, I hope you are still a kid and I would forgive you your stupidity, if not, then it is high time you took your blinkers off and spend some time in American military prisons yourself!
I noticed my above link doesn't work anymore. Here is another site with roughly the same info: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/07/26/khadr-rally.html
While I'm at it, and it is also related to fighting the evil Taleban, here is a little political tidbit:
Afghanistan report won't be released before election
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/...:a16:g25:r2:c0
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Very cleverly maneuvered!! Let's not tell the voters how much we spent on that hated war, or they might get shocked and rebel.
At least we know over ninety Canadian soldiers have given their lives for this worthy war, and Wiki gives us a picture about the horrendous suffering of the ordinary Afghan citizens who are so thankful for our presence and help to eradicate the "terrorists"!
Wiki:
It's been seven years and still counting! At least, so it seems, the Afghans' freedom and democracy is not as costly as the Iraqis' who have lost an estimated half million civilian lives and still counting.
I love war... it's fun and so easy to simply say, "you are evil - I'm good!":lol: "You are a terrorist - I'm gonna kill you!!! Peng, peng...booomm... 8O Aww... too bad, I wanted to torture you first for a while!:-(
