Objection to some astronomers.

Torch light

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That has to mean some of it is not correct. Aside from that, it seems intrinsically unreasonable to me that if Allah wanted to get a clear message to mankind that he wouldn't have done so in the original. Islam does claim that the Quran is the last and most perfect revelation from a perfect being, why wasn't its meaning perfectly clear from the beginning? Allah shouldn't be so fuzzy minded that he can't make himself clear. It shouldn't require the elaborate and time consuming efforts al-Hilly and you, and probably thousands of others over the last 1500 years or so, have put into trying to interpret what it really means.

There could hardly be better that the Quran is not in fact a divine revelation, but a human creation.
I said 'almost correct' about the interpretation and the translation, not about the Quran which is perfect and infallible and as a whole correct in its entirety.
So the Quran is like the Ten Commandments in being from God: word by word.

The interpreter of the Quran - salam be to his soul - was inspired and said to me: "There is an angel who recites to me and I write down."
And he told me about a narration that says: "The Mahdi has an angel that instructs him from where he does not see him."

But this was not the fact always: there were many instances when I asked him about some ayat, and he said: "I don't know." Another time he said: "I don't know; see it written down in the interpretation."
I said: "Aren't you the one who wrote it?"
He said: "Yes, but it is the [extensive and marvelous and deep meaning] Quran."
Once he said: "I am not the author; I only write what I hear [from the angel.]"

To let you understand this subject: It took him more than 45 years: from before the year 1947 till his death in the year 1991 to write The Quran Interpretation and its introductive book: (The Universe and the Quran) and (Man after Death) and (The Explanation of the Ambiguous Ayat of the Quran)

I understood that he reached his knowledge by:
1- Inspiration and revelation by the angel: the Messiah and another angel: Gabriel or another one or more?
2- God let him understand many subjects.
3- by God's consultation in many subjects.
4- by showing him the practical display of some problems and their solution: the meaning of some ayat.
5- by letting someone understand the solution to a problem and in this way he gets the knowledge about some ayat.
6- by referring to some commentators and their commentation, and by referring to the meaning of the words in the Arab poetry (specially the pre-Islam poetry and the early Islamic period) and in many extensive dictionaries.
7- by referring to parables even in the common language and even to some songs in Arabic and sometimes in Persian.

Example of point 5: by letting someone understand the solution to a problem and in this way he gets the knowledge about some ayat.
I myself had this idea since I was in the Mediterranean School: about the 8th-10th year of school:
Then one of my colleagues once said to me about the aya 36: 39 which means:
(And moon –– We have decreed its phases i, till it returns [as a crescent at the end of the month] like the [dry] old j 'curved stalk of date-clusters' [of last year.])
........................................................................................................................................................................................................................

i According to its circling around the earth; so that every night it takes a place in the space and it decreases to the eye sight.

quran-ayat.com/pret/36.htm#a36_39

So my colleague said: it is like the curved stalk and the craters of Moon are like the remnants of the date caps in the curved stalk;


and when I told the interpreter about this, he said: it is reasonable. I said: Aren't you the Mahdi? How could he understand it and you not?
He said: "Not necessarily; it may be God lets someone understand it, and from him, we know the meaning.

Another time he said to me: "I am not overproud to listen to the truth uttered by a child even."

Therefore, in general outline and in details, he could grasp knowledge about the Quran that scholars could not reach, eventhough he did not graduate from any school, because in the first place he was inspired.

But many times he corrects and edits so that he wrote many versions with few changes in fact. I said to him: "How could you be the Mahdi and you make some mistakes and then correct them!?"
He said: "it is a temptation for people to see who believes and be constant in his belief and who apostatizes and disbelieves!"
 
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Torch light

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YOU admit that the Quran is ALMOST correct, which means even you admit it has flaws. And if it has flaws, then either A) The men who wrote it had flaws and thus were not writing word for word from God or B) the men never wrote for God at all, but for the Power that religion gives over people. Or C) God is flawed.
I didn't say the Quran; I said the interpretation is almost correct, and if there had been any mistake, the interpreter would have corrected it.

The Quran is infallible, and it is God's words: word by word and letter by letter. In this respect, the Quran is like the Ten Commandments.

The explanation of this is in my previous post #101
 
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Serryah

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I didn't say the Quran; I said the interpretation is almost correct, and if there had been any mistake, the interpreter would have corrected it.

The Quran is infallible, and it is God's words: word by word and letter by letter. In this respect, the Quran is like the Ten Commandments.

The explanation of this is in my previous post #101

We're talking about the Quran, if you didn't mean the Quran, you should have said as much. So no, you don't get off that easy. This IS about the Quran.

Had there been any 'mistakes', they'd still be there as the "interpreter" is STILL only human, biased and with all the flaws.

The Quran, unless written by God itself, is a work of MAN, for it was MAN who wrote it. Even if God 'inspired' it, or 'worked through', you CANNOT guarantee that the words are truly that of God, because Man was involved. And frankly, if you hadn't realized it by now, humans suck and are power hungry hairless apes especially when it comes to religion.

And I have as much doubt about the Ten Commandments as I do the Quran, Torah and all other religious books, as they are ALL written by MAN.
 
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55Mercury

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The Quran is infallible, and it is God's words: word by word and letter by letter. In this respect, the Quran is like the Ten Commandments.
except the Ten Commandments make no mention of stoning others as you would have them stone you

...unless the date is 4-20, naturally.
 
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Dexter Sinister

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I said 'almost correct' about the interpretation and the translation, not about the Quran which is perfect and infallible and as a whole correct in its entirety.
Yes I know that's what you meant. My question was why does the Quran need that kind of effort to make it comprehensible? Allah must have generated a message that's garbled and incoherent to some degree, and the reading I did to pluck out the examples of error below certainly confirms that. And what possible good is it for the message to be perfect and infallible only in Arabic? You more or less admitted that interpretations and translations cannot be so perfect and infallible, and that makes its claimed truth inaccessible to most of us. As I've said before, not a good way to sell the product.

And some examples of where the Quran is not correct:
18:89,90: there's a road to where the sun rises; only on a flat earth would that be possible.
27:61: Earth doesn't move; you must know that's not true.
36:40: sun and moon orbit the Earth; you know that's not true either.
54:1: Mohammad split the moon into two pieces; there's no sign this ever happened, and no record anyone else noticed it. The Chinese at the time would certainly have seen and recorded it.
67:5: stars are missiles for devils; it's not clear whether devils throw them or they're to be thrown at devils;
71:16: the moon generates its own light; no, it only reflects light.
81:2: the stars will all fall to Earth some day; not possible, clearly Mohammad had no idea what stars are.
91:2: the moon follows the sun around the Earth; Mohammad knew nothing about the solar system either.
 
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Torch light

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You are guilty for saying such objections, to which I answered you before, and you insist and persist without referring to the answers.

First: demanding the impossible.
The Quran was revealed in Arabic: first of all to the Arabs because the messenger was Arabian and his people were the Arabs.
Moreover, the guidance is not related exactly to the language: the disbeliever will keep to his disbelief one may explain to him because guidance is up to God, and none may believe unless God guides him.
The people of Prophet Mohammed (like other prophets and their peoples) demanded of him the impossible like the past nations demanded the impossible from their messengers.
So while the Quran is a miracle in Arabic, the Arabs disbelieved and denied the messenger, and the book (like most of the past nations with their prophets.)

Second: some of the ambiguous ayat are cited; their interpretation is not like what you said; so while you claimed you don't know Arabic, yet you bring many ayat of the ambiguous and mysterious ayat of the Quran and assert it means like what you said.

I or someone else answered your objections before, yet you keep to your assertions and insist on that.

Anyhow, I will give you the meaning of these mysterious ayat of the Quran according to the Interpreter Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly:

Quran 18: 87 means:
([And he went in his march westward of Macedonia, his country] until when he reached at sun-set [time]; he found the [sun] setting under the observation of a black [woman], and he found with her a people c )
..........................................................................................................................................................................................

c The black woman was their queen.
The meaning: He found the sun set on a people watching the sun at its sunset time, and they prostrated themselves to it. They had a black queen leading them in prayer.
That is because when Alexander reached Sudan, he found the citizens of that country worship the sun; so they gathered on their feast day outside the city at sunset time, watching the sun, and hymning their religious songs; then when it was about to hide from sight [behind the horizon], all of them would prostrate themselves to it. So the Arabic word here in the aya means the 'observation and watching‘, [not the 'eye‘ or the 'water spring'.]

Quran 18: 90, which means:
(Until when he reached [a country] to the east [of Macedonia: his own country], he found the [sun] rise upon a people for whom We made no shelter from its [rays.] h)
........................................................................................................................................

h i.e. there were no mountains in their land to protect them from sun rays.

Quran 27: 61, which means:
([Are their associates better], or is He Who made the earth for a 'habitation and settlement' i , and made rivers [to flow] through its [mountains and valleys], and made [mountains] that landed on it, and placed a partition between the two seas?)
................................................................................................................................................................................................

i i.e. He prepared it for you in order to dwell in it and settle on it.


Quran 36: 40, which means:
(It is not for the sun to overtake the moon k , neither does the night outstrip the day l ; but each [of the sun, the moon and the earth with its night and day] is swimming along into a [specific] orbit. m)
............................................................................................................................................................................................................

k It means: In spite of the extent of the sun and its powerful gravity and heat, and in spite of that the moon is small and without internal heat and is a gravitated object; in spite of all this, the sun cannot draw the moon to it; that is because the moon is far from the sun and near to the earth. This is as such only according to Our wisdom and estimation.
l So as to hide it from sight, but the night is followed by the day, in spite of that the entire space is dark and all of it is night; so the day accompanies the night and does not leave it.
m Therefore, the sun swims or floats in the space and circles around the fixed star which gravitates it, the moon swims in the space and circles around the earth, and the earth swims in the space and spins around its axis so that the night and day will form from its spinning, and it circles around the sun and so the four seasons will form. So blessed be God the Lord of the worlds, the Creator of suns and moons and the Maker of the night and day, as a mercy to the worlds and a bounty to the grateful.

Quran 54: 1, which means:
[The Prophet – salam to him – passed by a group of Quraish tribesmen, who mocked him saying: “if truly you are a messenger of God, then divide the moon into two halves, and we shall believe you!” Therefore, this soora (or chapter) was revealed: ]

(1. The hour [of their death] has become imminent a , and the moon was detached [from the earth in the past, and will split b into two halves in the future, before Doomsday.])
.......................................................................................................................................................................................................................

a And We will punish them according to their stubbornness and mockery.
b The reason for its splitting is because of the depletion of the earth gravity, because the gravity collects the parts of the gravitated object and does not allow its break-up. And because the moon is attracted to the earth, then after the finishing of the earth's gravity, its parts will break up. So at that time, the moon will split into two halves, then the sun will draw it to itself. However, this aya has been explained in detail, in my book The Universe and the Quran.

Quran 67: 5, which means:
(And We adorned the nearest firmament [to your earth] with [meteors which flash at night like] lamps, and made these [meteors] to stone devils l ; and We have prepared for them [for Doomsday] the chastisement of the Blaze.)
..........................................................................................................................................................................

l If they try to eavesdrop.

Quran 71: 15-16, which means:
(15. "Have you not considered how God created seven [ethereal or spiritual] heavens h , as layers [one above another]"
16, "And [how God] let the moon [give] light therein i , and let the sun [to be as] a lamp j [above these heavens?]" k)
.............................................................................................................................................................................

h They are the Paradises or Gardens inhabited by the angels, prophets, martyrs, and the righteous. In my book The Universe and the Quran, I have explained fully about the ethereal heavens.
i To give light to those who inhabit these heavens.
j i.e. having a little light and heat like the lamp.

Quran 81: 2, which means:
(And when the stars shall lose their luster and be dim [to the sight.]‘ b)
............................................................................................................................................................

b The meaning: When the stars will disappear from sight, because of the turbidity of the atmosphere, the thick fog, and the smoke in the space.

Quran 91: 2, which means:
(And by the moon when it will follow the [sun!] b)
......................................................................................................................................................................................

b The reason for this is that the moon is gravitated by the earth, and it circles around it; the reason for the gravity is the heat which is in the core of the earth; so when this heat will finish by the passing of years, the earth gravity will also finish, and so [the influence of] the sun gravity on the moon will increase, and it will draw the moon towards itself and the moon will unite with it. Anyhow, I have fully explained about this topic in my book The Universe and the Quran.

A detailed explanation of these ayat are in the link:
The Quran Interpretation
 

Dexter Sinister

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...the reason for the gravity is the heat which is in the core of the earth; so when this heat will finish by the passing of years, the earth gravity will also finish, and so [the influence of] the sun gravity on the moon will increase, and it will draw the moon towards itself and the moon will unite with it. Anyhow, I have fully explained about this topic in my book The Universe and the Quran.
So now it's *your* book? You're not the author, you're the translator, which doesn't make it your book.

Obviously we're reading different translations of the Quran, which I'll take as an example of your observation that the translations are not correct. The one I have, for instance, clearly and unequivocally states what I claimed it does in the list of errors I provided. Regardless, however, that claim about gravity, typical of your explanations, is utter nonsense, as I and several others have tried to explain to you before. Gravity is not caused by heat, temperature appears nowhere in any of the equations of gravitational dynamics, not in Newton's formulation and its derivatives, or Einstein's and its derivatives. And they work. Therefore you and al-Hilly are wrong. And not just a little bit, but egregiously, stupidly, and willfully, wrong. As long as you continue making such errors and insisting that you're right there's no reason to believe anything you say.
 
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Torch light

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So now it's *your* book? You're not the author, you're the translator, which doesn't make it your book.

Obviously we're reading different translations of the Quran, which I'll take as an example of your observation that the translations are not correct. The one I have, for instance, clearly and unequivocally states what I claimed it does in the list of errors I provided. Regardless, however, that claim about gravity, typical of your explanations, is utter nonsense, as I and several others have tried to explain to you before. Gravity is not caused by heat, temperature appears nowhere in any of the equations of gravitational dynamics, not in Newton's formulation and its derivatives, or Einstein's and its derivatives. And they work. Therefore you and al-Hilly are wrong. And not just a little bit, but egregiously, stupidly, and willfully, wrong. As long as you continue making such errors and insisting that you're right there's no reason to believe anything you say.
I did not say the translations are not correct; I said: they might not be correct in language or style.. this is what I mean.
Language fluency is essential in translating any text from any language.

Anyhow, I thank God Most Gracious for that my language expression might have become better than before, and I am now updating the translation if God gives me respite in my lifetime. And I have depended now on some new and recent translations of the Quran meaning.

About your objections concerning the gravity relation to heat; I discussed this before and said: the interpreter gave general ideas, so that he did not give equations or science terms, and he did not graduate from any school: elementary or high or whatever school other than only he learned reading and writing Arabic from a local teacher.

Whether you accept it or not; this is your choice and your future in the Hereafter; and your denial of the Hereafter will not change the outcome.
 

Dexter Sinister

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About your objections concerning the gravity relation to heat; I discussed this before and said: the interpreter gave general ideas, so that he did not give equations or science terms, and he did not graduate from any school: elementary or high or whatever school other than only he learned reading and writing Arabic from a local teacher.
That certainly explains it; the man knew almost nothing. Gravity's claimed relation to heat is not a general idea, it's a very specific claim about the nature of reality, and it's wrong. And you're taking his word as authoritative for no better reason than that you share the same faith. Faith and revelation are very poor guides to reality, as you continually demonstrate.
Whether you accept it or not; this is your choice and your future in the Hereafter; and your denial of the Hereafter will not change the outcome.
How does my accepting or rejecting Al-Hilly's claims about gravity have any effect on my future in the hereafter?
 

Torch light

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I told you before that heat means energy, and that the observations prove this is true about the heat in relation to gravity.
Rejecting the words of Al-Hilly indicates your disbelief not about gravity only but extends to almost all other points which makes you a disbeliever in the Hereafter, in the Quran in addition to its interpretation.
Therefore, your stand against the Apostle of Christ, Al-Hilly, leads you to be in the opposite party of Al-Hilly and of the Quran.

This is in the Quran about disobeying the messenger:
Quran 24: 63, which means:
(Let not the calling of the messenger for you [to carry out some work] be as your calling each other a ;
[for surely] God knows those of you who slip away b , hiding themselves [behind the palm trees or behind their companions];
so let those who work against his command c beware, lest a trial may befall them [in the life of the World d ], or there may befall them a painful torment [in the Hereafter.])
.................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

a Because his command is a duty, and to go away from him without his leave is forbidden.
b i.e. they go away secretly one by one, leaving their work.
c It means: against the command of the messenger and do not comply with him.
d Like disease, poverty or infliction.

http://quran-ayat.com/pret/24.htm#a24_63
 

Tecumsehsbones

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I told you before that heat means energy, and that the observations prove this is true about the heat in relation to gravity.
Rejecting the words of Al-Hilly indicates your disbelief not about gravity only but extends to almost all other points which makes you a disbeliever in the Hereafter, in the Quran in addition to its interpretation.
Therefore, your stand against the Apostle of Christ, Al-Hilly, leads you to be in the opposite party of Al-Hilly and of the Quran.

This is in the Quran about disobeying the messenger:
Quran 24: 63, which means:
(Let not the calling of the messenger for you [to carry out some work] be as your calling each other a ;
[for surely] God knows those of you who slip away b , hiding themselves [behind the palm trees or behind their companions];
so let those who work against his command c beware, lest a trial may befall them [in the life of the World d ], or there may befall them a painful torment [in the Hereafter.])
.................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

a Because his command is a duty, and to go away from him without his leave is forbidden.
b i.e. they go away secretly one by one, leaving their work.
c It means: against the command of the messenger and do not comply with him.
d Like disease, poverty or infliction.

http://quran-ayat.com/pret/24.htm#a24_63
Rejecting the lunacy of Al Hillbilly indicates you paid attention in physics class.
 

Torch light

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Moreover, obeying the messenger is in fact an obedience to God, because the messenger works according to God's command:
Quran 4: 80, which means:
(Whoever obeys the messenger, obeys God in fact [because the messenger works according to God‘s command.])
 

Torch light

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But I'm American, so I probably got Allah out-gunned.
America is very fragile and so weak in relation to God Almighty.
I think your punishment by God is ready, and may only be postponed according to some wisdom of God in addition to that there may be some people who are just and good among the people there.
Moreover, there are many Muslims in America and Europe.
Also you in person, I think are very weak, and vulnerable to being cracked up so easily.
While God is very High and Lofty over His throne of majesty Who made all generations perish so easily.. and He kills kings and presidents and makes others stand instead of them.
And He makes communities perish and let others succeed instead of them.
 
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