No American democracy for Americans?

[SLM]

Why is it not practical? Near as I can tell, three reasons are given for police.

1. Crime prevention. But there are relatively few cases where the police actually intervene in a crime in progress.

2. Crime deterrent. I'm not sure how well this works. One would think that if police presence were an effective deterrent to crime, crime would be lowest where police presence is heaviest. But in reality it seems as if just about the opposite case prevails.

3. Catching criminals. This is what the police seem to do most effectively. My suggestion was that with no police or few police, we would have to develop a much better system of citizen's arrest.

You didn't make a suggestion because you didn't explain yourself. All you asked was whether getting rid of the police would "make it easier to organize with the neighbours."

Anyway, how is that not swapping out one force for another? Trained police officers and emergency responders for an untrained group that would have to develop (in other words become trained) to do the same job?

Taking something established, which can always be improved upon by the way, to replace it with something unestablished where people have learn as they go and develop the skills necessary to be effective at doing the job is highly impractical.

Sorry if I upset you by pointing out that argument by anecdote isn't a very good method.

You will never upset me, don't you go worrying about that now.

 

[EagleSmack]

I never said that. You did. And you're trying to attribute it to me. Which is dishonest.

You never said that! Geez you just DID say it!

If you have a source, I'd like to see it. I don't really know, but I kinda suspect police forces just kinda grow. I can't immediately recall a case where the people have voted for the formation of a police force.

.

Are you sure you didn't?

 

[karrie]

Do you have a source for that?

I ask because I wonder. From what I've read, for example, the formation of the NWMP wasn't put to a vote.

If you have a source, I'd like to see it. I don't really know, but I kinda suspect police forces just kinda grow. I can't immediately recall a case where the people have voted for the formation of a police force.


I think that's a cost/benefit thing. We could raise taxes to 90% and make every other person a law enforcement/security type. I don't think many people would agree they're better off with that.

I don't think anyone voted to have ambulance services, fire departments, or hospitals either, did they?

There are basics that societies and governments find themselves needing that they simply put in place.

We review their metrics (crime rates, conviction rates, response times), and we gauge that against what our taxes are paying for said services, and then we address that with government accordingly, either protesting a poorly run police service, or voting in council to increase the budget of police services, etc. It's part of local governance, and it's part of what your elected officials do with your vote for them.

1. Crime prevention. But there are relatively few cases where the police actually intervene in a crime in progress.

Hmmm... really? I know quite a few officers, and I'd have to disagree with that based on anecdotal evidence. Feel free to back the statement up with some fact though.

2. Crime deterrent. I'm not sure how well this works. One would think that if police presence were an effective deterrent to crime, crime would be lowest where police presence is heaviest. But in reality it seems as if just about the opposite case prevails.

3. Catching criminals. This is what the police seem to do most effectively. My suggestion was that with no police or few police, we would have to develop a much better system of citizen's arrest.

I would much prefer to pay taxes and have trained professionals with the right equipment, perform arrests, rather than risking my own life, or that of my husband. Or, having to rely on people like you, who you've confessed, don't get involved in their neighbourhoods. A reliable, ensured method of protecting my family is highly preferable to winging it with Joe Blow and crossing your fingers and hoping for good neighbours.

 

[EagleSmack]

I would much prefer to pay taxes and have trained professionals with the right equipment, perform arrests, rather than risking my own life, or that of my husband. Or, having to rely on people like you, who you've confessed, don't get involved in their neighbourhoods. A reliable, ensured method of protecting my family is highly preferable to winging it with Joe Blow and crossing your fingers and hoping for good neighbours.

C'mon Karrie... you don't want retirees patrolling the street in the day... then tired folks picking up the patrols after they get home from work.

Hey wait a second... holidays and weekends... How many are we going to get out on those days? What about the 12AM-8AM shift?

 

[karrie]

C'mon Karrie... you don't want retirees patrolling the street in the day... then tired folks picking up the patrols after they get home from work.

Hey wait a second... holidays and weekends... How many are we going to get out on those days? What about the 12AM-8AM shift?

What a terrifying thought.

I've been running back through my mind, thinking of all the times my family have come up against the police, or needed the police, and in any and all of those situations, a lack of oversight, having to rely on untrained, scared, inexperienced members of the community to do things like arrest my cousin for murder, track down and apprehend a friend who had suffered a mental break down, rescue and resuscitate a friend who had committed suicide, pull over and arrest my father for drunk driving, arrest my uncle, my aunt, yet another cousin, oh and that time my brother was thrown in the drunk tank... it's a terrifying thought.

Holy man I have a lot of relatives who've been arrested. lol.

 

[SLM]

What a terrifying thought.

I've been running back through my mind, thinking of all the times my family have come up against the police, or needed the police, and in any and all of those situations, a lack of oversight, having to rely on untrained, scared, inexperienced members of the community to do things like arrest my cousin for murder, track down and apprehend a friend who had suffered a mental break down, rescue and resuscitate a friend who had committed suicide, pull over and arrest my father for drunk driving, arrest my uncle, my aunt, yet another cousin, oh and that time my brother was thrown in the drunk tank... it's a terrifying thought.

Holy man I have a lot of relatives who've been arrested. lol.

LMAO. Ma Barker, look at you!

 

[karrie]

LMAO. Ma Barker, look at you!

That wasn't even getting into all the arrests for moonshining, because the libertarian in me thinks those are debatable

 

[CDNBear]

That wasn't even getting into all the arrests for moonshining, because the libertarian in me thinks those are debatable

You kill me, lol.

 

[SLM]

That wasn't even getting into all the arrests for moonshining, because the libertarian in me thinks those are debatable

Well of course they are! What else is a self respecting Canadian to do when the liquor store is closed but make their own? Lol.

Gets damned cold in the winter and there are all those medicinal purposes.

 

[EagleSmack]

What a terrifying thought.

I've been running back through my mind, thinking of all the times my family have come up against the police, or needed the police, and in any and all of those situations, a lack of oversight, having to rely on untrained, scared, inexperienced members of the community to do things like arrest my cousin for murder, track down and apprehend a friend who had suffered a mental break down, rescue and resuscitate a friend who had committed suicide, pull over and arrest my father for drunk driving, arrest my uncle, my aunt, yet another cousin, oh and that time my brother was thrown in the drunk tank... it's a terrifying thought.

Holy man I have a lot of relatives who've been arrested. lol.

Yes you do. I bet for your extended family community policing would look pretty darn good!

Well of course they are! What else is a self respecting Canadian to do when the liquor store is closed but make their own? Lol.

Gets damned cold in the winter and there are all those medicinal purposes.

That must be where I get all my home brewing skills/instincts... my mom's side.

 

[karrie]

Yes you do. I bet for your extended family community policing would look pretty darn good!



That must be where I get all my home brewing skills... my mom's side.

Yeah, my dad's side of the family would take community policing pretty seriously. They'd own the place in no time. And boy, I bet they'd have it properly white washed too, if you catch my meaning.

 

[EagleSmack]

Yeah, my dad's side of the family would take community policing pretty seriously. They'd own the place in no time. And boy, I bet they'd have it properly white washed too, if you catch my meaning.

Something like...

"Hello there... you gotcha self a nice store here eh? It would be a shame if anything happened to these windows with these criminals about. Well we're the community police force..."

 

[karrie]

Something like...

"Hello there... you gotcha self a nice store here eh? It would be a shame if anything happened to these windows with these criminals about. Well we're the community police force..."

no doubt. And don't even think about trying to open that Lebanese restaurant, in fact, maybe just move yourselves on out of town hey? This town might not be a safe place for you, if you're not one of 'our' neighbours.

 

[petros]

When they try to put a camera in my home is where they cross the line, not when they have video surveillance of public roadways and corridors.

But what the hell do I know, I'm just an empty headed sheep longing to be controlled and manipulated and unable to think for herself because I don't fear the same things you fear.

Don't get a Smart TV, they have cameras and mics.

 

[Cliffy]

I'd posit that the notion of privacy in public spaces, is an even more erroneous myth than that of security.

I don't see the word privacy in my post. What I was talking about is freedom.

 

[karrie]

When TBones asked you what reason there was to object to cameras, your answer was....

Privacy.

Then you followed it up closely by stating that....

Security is a myth.

Well, while we're on the topic of myths... so is the idea that you have privacy in public spaces.

Follow?

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

I don't see the word privacy in my post. What I was talking about is freedom.

Allow me. I'll even bold it for easy reading.

Quote: Originally Posted by Tecumsehsbones

Question, Cliffy.

It seems to me that there are two reasons to fear surveillance. The first is if one is doing illegal things, the second is if one is doing embarassing things.

In the first case, don't we want them to be deterred or caught?

In the second, wouldn't a little courage and integrity take care of the problem?

Privacy. The government has no business spying on its citizens. It is all about control. They use fear to control, always have and always will. Where is the freedom in living in fear. Crime rates are down but fear is at an all time high. It is a manufactured fear, one that causes seemingly rational people to want to give away their freedoms for security. There is no such thing as security. It is a false carrot waived in people's faces to get them to conform to the status quo. But Hey! If you want to be controlled and manipulated by Big Brother, knock yourself out.

 

[karrie]

I don't see the word privacy in my post. What I was talking about is freedom.

But, if you want to talk freedom. Nothing about current surveillance in cities, prevents your freedom, unless you're attempting to commit crimes, or have hampered your own freedom through paranoia.

 

[EagleSmack]

But, if you want to talk freedom. Nothing about current surveillance in cities, prevents your freedom, unless you're attempting to commit crimes, or have hampered your own freedom through paranoia.

I think this is where you'll get that quote that says something like those that give up a little freedom for security deserve neither. Something along those lines. All or nothing... no balance...no moderation.

 

[DaSleeper]

I think this is where you'll get that quote that says something like those that give up a little freedom for security deserve neither. Something along those lines. All or nothing... no balance...no moderation.

The same people who argue that they shouldn't pay fines for not wearing a seatbelt in a car or wear helmet while driving a motorcycle......