N. Korea attacks S. Korean island, killing 2 marines

[Risus]

I'm not sure about "invade".....but this is why you simply don't allow countries like Iran to get the bomb.......helping the Israelis out with some bunker busters etc would be a very wise move........

North Korea badly needs to be destroyed....I don't mean punished, I mean regime change, the ill Kong Jingle-bell heads done away with, the nation taken under the arm of the west, a large middle finger extended across the border into China.........

Death to Tyrants.

LOL, you want to pick and choose who can have the bomb? If one can have it, there is no reason why another can't have it.

 

[Colpy]

LOL, you want to pick and choose who can have the bomb? If one can have it, there is no reason why another can't have it.

That is simply idiotic.

This is not a kindergarten game where everyone gets to play fair and all the cookies are divided evenly afterward.

This is geopolitics, where people live in psycho-states like NK and Iran, where liberty is all-to-uncommon, and must be defended by force of arms....... where one side is us, and the other them.....and we are on the right side.

To allow nut case governments like that currently in Iran or in NK to have nuclear arms is irresponsible at best, and suicidal at worst.

 

[Retired_Can_Soldier]

This post doesn't contribute anything and is nothing more then pure garbage.
You bring up words like "ignorance" and "facts" constantly, insuiating you actually know something. You certainly haven't proved you know anything, so there's no reason you should be acting like a condescending douche.

The only person bringing anything substantial to the topic is earth_As_one, everyone else is ranting and spewing trash because of the insinuation south korea may actually be in the wrong in this particular incident.

It's very hard not to be a condescending douche when dealing with a clueless person such as yourself. I don't think you believe anything one way or the other. You're either trolling for a reaction or you're an imbecile.

Some of the people who have engaged you I have known for quite a few years now, and my experience with many of them is that we don't always agree. This is due to the fact that we have different ideologies, but knowing these folks quite well and having engaged in many a spirited debate I have always respected them even when I disagreed wholeheartedly.

It is very telling that some of them would find your posts repugnant.

You stopped being worthy of debate 3 pages ago, and are now only worth a condescending post.

There is an old saying: When 90 % of the people think your out to lunch, you are most definitely out to lunch.

Bon appetit.

 

[taxslave]

Well, war does make some bitchen TV.;-)

Not bad for the profit margin of companies that make munitions either. Gotta talk to my broker before the prices raise.

 

[Cliffy]

That is simply idiotic.

This is not a kindergarten game where everyone gets to play fair and all the cookies are divided evenly afterward.

This is geopolitics, where people live in psycho-states like NK and Iran, where liberty is all-to-uncommon, and must be defended by force of arms....... where one side is us, and the other them.....and we are on the right side.

To allow nut case governments like that currently in Iran or in NK to have nuclear arms is irresponsible at best, and suicidal at worst.

That is so egotistical - our side is better than your side. It sounds so childishly "sandbox". Humans are the same no matter where you go. Unless you can only take out the perpetrators of human rights infraction, too many innocent people get killed and maimed. War, no matter what the reasons we invent, is a crime against humanity and puts us in the same shoes as those we fight against. War is about profit, nothing else. Justifying it by saying we're better is just plain stupid and insane.

 

[earth_as_one]

No one can stop Korea or any other country from acquiring nukes, short of invading and occupying the country. As per the NPT all nuke possessing nations should have reduced and eliminated their nuclear arsenals decades ago. Instead nuke possessing nations continued researching and modernizing their nuke arsenals also in violation of their NPT obligations. Some like the US have threatened non-nuke nations with nuclear weapon strikes.... also in violation of the NPT.

Now North Korea is supposed to resign the NPT and become compliant? I doubt that will happen short of invading and occupying NK.

But the topic is North and South Korea shelling each other during a South Korean live fire exercise... Back on subject....

Todays news:

• Paul Harris in New York
• The Observer, Sunday 28 November 2010 <li class="history">Article history
  
  The mother of a South Korean marine killed by the North Korean shelling of Yeonpyeong island cries at his funeral yesterday. Photograph: Pool/REUTERS As US and South Korean forces prepared for joint war games in the Yellow Sea today, North Korea threatened further attacks and accused its neighbour of using civilians as "human shields".
  

recent post:

...If South Korea fired artillery from this island at North Korea, then every artillery position on the island is fair game. Under the laws regarding war, North Korea is even allowed to attack military targets located in residential areas. I wouldn't call these civilians human shields, but your your war criminal pals in Israel might. I question the wisdom of locating residential areas next to military positions during war and then using those positions to shell enemy territory. Who'd have thought they might fire back?

Are these people human shields?

 

[petros]

Here is news flash for y'all, the Korean War never ended.

 

[Cliffy]

Here is news flash for y'all, the Korean War never ended.

That is obvious. But it is being proposed that we escalate it into a full blown military conflict to take out one "perceived" lunatic - shade of Iraq and Hussein all over again. Millions will die and suffer because of one guy and it will be justified by the war mongers as worth it.

 

[earth_as_one]

Don't forget being burdened with an economic basket case and millions of brainwashed people for decades... Who's picking up the tab?

 

[petros]

China will handle this one.

 

[earth_as_one]

Bingo... Good time to invest in the South Korean stock exchange....

 

[Machjo]

Yes, we all know, North Korea needs a time out. Where or when did South Korea hold a live fire exercise where shells, aircraft etc. violated North Korean airspace. Holding exercises in international waters in the Yellow Sea is not a cause to shell anyone and cause causalities. North Korea is a criminal state and should be removed as such. Seems the world forgets the abduction of foreign nationals by N. Korea. No doubt that this was a direct provocation by North Korea. Now they await our patty cake response. Till next time.

If South Korea was practicing in what international law clearly recognizes as international space, then North Korea was the clear aggressor. Sure, out of common courtecy it would be nice to practice within South Korean space, but at least I am not aware of any international law restricting military exercises in international waters. Not very courteous, but not illegal to the best of my knowledge. If this is in fact the case, then North Korea is the clear agggressor and South Korea has a right to defend itself using the minimum force required to protect its people. The international community should stand behind South Korea too if this is in fact the case. I would like to see a clear official statement though of it being the case though, if you have any link.

 

[Colpy]

That is obvious. But it is being proposed that we escalate it into a full blown military conflict to take out one "perceived" lunatic - shade of Iraq and Hussein all over again. Millions will die and suffer because of one guy and it will be justified by the war mongers as worth it.

Millions have already died in North Korean famine and oppression.........

A war to completely liberate North Korea could only help the people there. They have absolutely NOTHING to lose.

The problem is the likelyhood that war would cost the lives of tens....or hundreds of thousands of South Koreans.....who have lots to lose.....thanks to liberty, capitalism, and the USA (to say nothing of Canada and the other UN forces in the 1950-53 war)

 

[Machjo]

Machjo: A few questions here:

1. According to established international laws, to whom do those disputed waters South Korea was practicing in belong, or is it not clear owing to a lack of a clearly defined border recognized by international laws?
A: The UN Command (one of the belligerents) drew a line on the map, called it the Northern Limit Line. North Korea never agreed to this line, but it was enforced by UNC who ruled the seas, so there is little North Korea can do about it. Technically its undisputed territory until the two parties sign an agreement. South Korea's live drill exercise were close to the NLL. North Korea claims South Korean artillery crossed the NLL into undisputed North Korean territory, prompting them to return fire.

There's still the issue of proportional response. If indeed South Korean shells landed in North Korean waters, that was a clear act of aggression on the part of South Korea, but the North Korean response was excessive, killing two South Koreans, injuring others, and putting civilian lives in danger. I'd have thought that a more appropriate response, seeing that South Korea was merely shooting into North Korean waters (so far I am just taking your word on this midn you), would simply have been for North Korea to shoot shells into those same waters to send a warning. That way, no one would have bene hurt. Now had South Korea then begun to attack North Korean ships in North Korean waters, that would have been a different matter. But from what I can see, shelling an island is disproportionate to shelling empty water.

A: North Korea claims some shells landed in undisputed North Korea territory. Also, the tiny sliver sea on the undisputed North Korean side of the NLL is barely navigable. South Korea's four and a half hour live fire drill exercise would have shut down North Korean shipping and fishing activity. Would you voluntarily pilot a vessel a few hundred meters from exploding artillery shells?

By the way, I hope North Korea can prove those shells did land in North Korean waters. Now as for South Korea harasing North Korean shipping and economic activity, again, shelling near South Korean ships to make a few ships rock in the waves would have been a more than appropriate initial warning response. Also, seeing that they do share the same bloody language, did North Korea at least make an effort to get on the radio and inform South Korea that it had trespassed into North Korean waters? For all we know, it could easly have been an honest mistake on the South Koreans' part. Killing two marines and injuring others by shelling an island was clearly a disproprotional initial response. Certainly North Korea should have tried to communicate with the South Koreans first, then shell the water if that should fail, and then and only then shel the ships ifpush comes to shove. It seems clear to me North Korea is looking for a fight, and that's not very reassuring.

I'm not trying to paint South Korea and its allies as angels here. Not in the least. I know we can be pretty aggressive sometimes too (e.g. WMD's in Iraq). That still does not excuse North Korea from acting with the same disrespect for international laws. Two wrongs don't make a right.

IMO, South Korea should refrain from holding live fire exercises in the disputed areas.

fully agreed. I don't know what the legal standing of this is, but even if South Korea was well within its legal rights here and even if no shell entered North Korean space, it woudl seem foolhardy for the South to be practicing there giving the tensions. This just gives the impression that we have another Geore Bush at the helm there.

 

[earth_as_one]

I agree, the North Korean response was excessive. But if any South Korea shells landed on the North Korean side of the border first, then North Korea's excessive response was legal. I'm not sure about justified or reasonable. If you fire at someone's territory, they have a legal right to fire back, especially while the rules of war apply. There is no way to tell directly if South Korea accidentally dropped a few shells across the line, but the South Korean defense minister's immediate resignation sort of hints indirectly that South Korea may be a fault or screwed up.

Right now, the war games are back on. For the next four days, the USS George Washington carrier group are playing live fire exercises with the South Koreans in the same area. Let's hope the Americans don't do something dumb or give the North Koreans a chance to do something dumb.

 

[petros]

Do you think these fruitcakes will be of any use?

YouTube - Japan Maritime Self Defense Force "Dance"

 

[ironsides]

I agree, the North Korean response was excessive. But if any South Korea shells landed on the North Korean side of the border first, then North Korea's excessive response was legal. I'm not sure about justified or reasonable. If you fire at someone's territory, they have a legal right to fire back, especially while the rules of war apply. There is no way to tell directly if South Korea accidentally dropped a few shells across the line, but the South Korean defense minister's immediate resignation sort of hints indirectly that South Korea may be a fault or screwed up.

Right now, the war games are back on. For the next four days, the USS George Washington carrier group are playing live fire exercises with the South Koreans in the same area. Let's hope the Americans don't do something dumb or give the North Koreans a chance to do something dumb.

But either way it would be the dumb Americans fault what ever happens. :roll:

 

[Cliffy]

Yup! The hornets are all riled up, so let's go poke their nest with a stick. Brilliant plan.

 

[ironsides]

I agree, the North Korean response was excessive. But if any South Korea shells landed on the North Korean side of the border first, then North Korea's excessive response was legal. I'm not sure about justified or reasonable. If you fire at someone's territory, they have a legal right to fire back, especially while the rules of war apply. There is no way to tell directly if South Korea accidentally dropped a few shells across the line, but the South Korean defense minister's immediate resignation sort of hints indirectly that South Korea may be a fault or screwed up.

Right now, the war games are back on. For the next four days, the USS George Washington carrier group are playing live fire exercises with the South Koreans in the same area. Let's hope the Americans don't do something dumb or give the North Koreans a chance to do something dumb.

For decades, North Korea's leadership has followed a strategy of trying to get what it wants from the international community through bouts of bad behaviour followed by promises to stop making trouble in return for concessions.
It is a strategy that has be
It was another blackmail attempt
For en highly successful - repeatedly Pyongyang has agreed beneficial deals with the United States and its allies only to abandon them when they cease to be useful. This week's artillery attack is likely to be the latest example of this strategy in action.
It followed revelations earlier this month that the North had made significant technological leaps in its nuclear capabilities. It now appears to have a developed uranium enrichment programme, giving it a potential second path to create fissile material for nuclear weapons.
Pyongyang may have revealed the progress it has made to strengthen its hand in future negotiations on disarmament. North Korea has been pressing for a resumption of talks, including direct talks with Washington.
"I don't expect the situation to further escalate, because North Korea has already achieved its goal of getting everyones attention," said Xu Guangyu, a retired major general in China's Peoples Liberation Army who now works for the government-run China Arms Control and Disarmament Association.
"North Korea wants to reopen dialogue with the United States and South Korea, but experience tells us that often its idea of getting there is to undertake extreme acts. The United States and South Korea have been notably reluctant to reopen dialogue with North Korea, and so the North chose the shelling of the South Korean military exercises to make its point.
This means that however angry the rhetoric in coming days, there is negligible risk of an escalation into serious conflict. However, the North may well attempt more provocations to bolster its bargaining position and increase its leverage -- a third nuclear test certainly cannot be ruled out.

Why did North Korea launch attack? | WORLD News

 

[wulfie68]

I know its easy for me, sitting across the Pacific from the Korea Peninsula to say this, but I hope the South Koreans and Americans continue to be reluctant to engage the North Koreans. Its like dealing with a child: rewarding bad behaviour only encourages more bad behaviour. So far this year the North Koreans have sunk a South Korean destroyer in international water and now shelled a South Korean island. The only discussions should be about the reparations the North makes to the South for these acts.