Mulcair predicts demise of Northern Gateway pipeline project

Kakato

Time Out
Jun 10, 2009
4,929
21
38
Alberta/N.W.T./Sask/B.C
Absolutely agree, but sooner or later just when an inspector sneezes or blinks, is going to be right when a woodpecker takes a peck at it. :smile:

With the amount of inspectors required these days I am starting to see a lot of nepotism and guys just getting their buddys jobs even though they are not very experienced.In my experience the head inspector is an engineer and rarely visits a job site,he does mostly paperwork brought to him by his senior and junior inspectors,most which dont hold a degree and lot's dont have grade 12 either but they were allways highly experienced.
I am seeing lots of well schooled but inexperienced folks doing inspections now and that does scare me.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
548
113
Vernon, B.C.
With the amount of inspectors required these days I am starting to see a lot of nepotism and guys just getting their buddys jobs even though they are not very experienced.In my experience the head inspector is an engineer and rarely visits a job site,he does mostly paperwork brought to him by his senior and junior inspectors,most which dont hold a degree and lot's dont have grade 12 either but they were allways highly experienced.
I am seeing lots of well schooled but inexperienced folks doing inspections now and that does scare me.

Yep, that book larnin' can only take you so far.
 

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
36,362
4,340
113
Vancouver Island
I don't care one way or another taxslave as long as all product is produced and refined
in this country before we make any decision. We should no longer export raw material
of any nature without being refined or processed wood etc. If we can't get maximum
value don't sell it period.
I do not think the government should own all thre resources but they should regulate
like hell on what we have. enbridge is a prime example of what happens when no one
is keeping an eye on them.
I would also suggest that the BC Liberal Party is in free fall, and will not form the next
government. What is really telling is the number of cabinet ministers and MLA's that
are calling it a day. If they announce before the writ is dropped their pension is higher.

The BC Tories are a fringe movement, even the Federal Conservatives are backing the
BC Liberals because it is the old Socred Coalition under a different name and it is dead
once again. As for the federal NDP going away, that has been said for more than sixty
years. The fact is the Federal NDP, the Federal Liberals and the Federal Conservatives
are all going to be around for a very long time and we need a variety of opinions and the
debate and ideas that come out of that.
Gateway is in serious trouble, the company who is building it is now discredited and the
people of BC are still not on board. Energy needs to be developed but we should not do
it just for the sake of doing it.

Short of a really big press to make diamonds how do you refine coal any more than it already is?
How about you try and get the permits to build a refinery anywhere in BC. I bet you die of old age before the studies are even started never mind actually building something. If you choose anywhere near a city IE Vancouver we will all be dead before the first permit is issued.
ANd that is why there is so little industry left in Canada.
 

Kakato

Time Out
Jun 10, 2009
4,929
21
38
Alberta/N.W.T./Sask/B.C
Short of a really big press to make diamonds how do you refine coal any more than it already is?
How about you try and get the permits to build a refinery anywhere in BC. I bet you die of old age before the studies are even started never mind actually building something. If you choose anywhere near a city IE Vancouver we will all be dead before the first permit is issued.
ANd that is why there is so little industry left in Canada.

Lots of industry,they just move to a friendly province.
 

beaker

Electoral Member
Jun 11, 2012
508
0
16
thepeacecountry
Most of our mills moved to Washington. Much friendlier environment and son of a gun they are on the same waterways.

It is all the same topic I guess, raw unprocessed oil being shipped out, logs being shipped out, manufacturing being farmed out, etc. it isn't the environment that is friendlier elsewhere. It looks to me that the business environment is friendlier. If you can hire cheap, bordering on slave, labour, if the only red tape is the kind used to securely hold the money to pay baksheesh for governmnt agreements, if the environment is sacrificed at ministerial whim rather than through comprehensive assessments of benefits and costs, it only makes sense for large coorporations to skip town.

That is working on the not very solid assumption that
A) we make the equipment in sufficient quantity to export
B) Other countries want to buy our equipment instead of manufacturing their own
C) We can manufacture this at a competitive price
Whereas we have an overabundance of both oil and coal that others do not and are willing to pay cash to get.

I don't understand how we can have an overabundance of oil or even coal when these are finite resources. The only overabundance is in the amount that we are burning or exporting to be burned. With Peak oil upon us, climate change unavoidable, and a continuing poor world economic projection, we are fools to chase after exports that don't pay us enough to make up for the loss/depreciation of our assets.

Canada has had a solar industry for over thirty years. If that industry had had the subsidies the oil industry has had we could probably be refining our oil cheaply, and hopefully cleanly, from solar energy. Canada is in a good position to do this, well educated research and development sector, challenges that once met would make other peoples problems look minor, and a wide range of environments to meet different needs.

Part of economics isn't about building something that will be competitive, but rather building what needs to be built, at the costs attributable to it, and giving the rest of the market the option. It sure as hell does no good to develop a product and then sell it below cost, the way we are with energy right now.
 

mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
39,817
471
83
Gunter is not really on my side of the fence, but looks like even he's calling this one a bust.

Gunter: Leak could sink Gateway

This week’s report by the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) on a 2010 pipeline leak in Michigan cannot be shrugged off by supporters of the Northern Gateway pipeline project to take oil from Alberta to B.C.’s West Coast.

The Kalamazoo River leak was deemed by the NTSB to be the costliest on-land spill in U.S. history and the company proposing construction of Northern Gateway – Enbridge – is the same company responsible for the Michigan pipeline breach.

While a Chevron leak in California in 2005 dumped more oil — 24,000 barrels versus Enbridge’s 20,000 — because the Michigan leak travelled down nearly 60 kilometres of rivers and streams, Enbridge’s cleanup costs ($900 million) were nearly five times that of Chevron’s.

Although both these leaks were tiny by comparison to the Deep Water Horizon spill in the Gulf of Mexico in 2010 (nearly 5 million barrels) and the Exxon Valdez spill in Alaska in 1989 (a minimum of 262,000 barrels), the effects of on-land spills can be more devastating per barrel because the oil is confined to a smaller area.

What makes matters worse for Enbridge and its Northern Gateway project is that the NTSB deemed the company negligent and incompetent.

“This accident was the result of multiple mistakes and missteps by Enbridge,” board Chairman Deborah Hersman said Tuesday.

Even though alarms began sounding in Enbridge’s Edmonton master control room shortly after the spill began, safety technicians on duty misinterpreted the signals for 17 hours. Far from rushing to shut down flow in the line, twice during those crucial hours Enbridge employees sent more oil into the already gushing pipe.

It wasn’t until a worker from a local natural gas company noticed oil flowing freely in the river and called Enbridge did the company close off the line.

There is just no getting around the fact that Enbridge fouled up its response and fouled it up badly. Hersman likened Enbridge’s response to the madcap “Keystone Cops.” It’s also possible to compare it to Homer Simpson’s befuddled efforts to prevent an explosion at the Springfield nuclear reactor by trying to remember whether or not to vent radioactive gas. “D’uh. This is hard.”

If you live along the proposed route of Northern Gateway or along British Columbia’s spectacular Pacific Coast, you don’t have to be an anti-development “green” zealot to be worried about Enbridge’s ability to safely manage a large pipeline through fragile environments.

Perhaps most troubling of all is the NTSB’s determination that Enbridge knew as early as 2005 that the section of line that eventually broke was corroded and cracked. Yet the company chose for five years not to excavate the section and conduct repairs.

Perhaps the company was cynically calculating that the cost of any cleanup would be less than the cost of repair. But if the ultimate effect of the Michigan spill is the cancellation of the $5.5-billion Northern Gateway project, then the true cost of the Kalamazoo River spill will be tens of billions of dollars lost, not just to Enbridge, but to the Alberta and Canadian economies. Thousands of new jobs, too, will never materialize.

How can Enbridge rescue Gateway?

The NTSB also cited “regulatory culpability” for the 2010 leak. “Delegating too much authority to the regulated to assess their own system risks and correct them is tantamount to the fox guarding the henhouse. Regulators need regulations and practices with teeth.”

Enbridge needs to say clearly, now, that it does not want to self-police and will abide by any regulatory oversight Ottawa and B.C. deems necessary for Gateway. And Ottawa and Victoria have to promise to be tough on the company.

Gunter: Leak could sink Gateway | Columnists | Opinion | Edmonton Sun
 

beaker

Electoral Member
Jun 11, 2012
508
0
16
thepeacecountry
Good post Mentalfloss, I think it takes a special kind of hutzpah to be so responsible for something that problematic and to care so little for the consequences of a possible spill.

The question that comes to mind though is if, given that the federal Conservatives/Reform/progressives or the provincial Liberals/conservatives/social credit would actually want to regulate, be tough on, the developers, how do we know that fourty or fifty years from now governments won't once again have dropped such ambition in the face of some new financial necessity. It is like nuclear energy at this point, human error (Homer Simpson) and an inability of government to stay focussed on important issues.
 

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
36,362
4,340
113
Vancouver Island
Contrary to what the socialists think there is nothing wrong with the industry self regulating. Unlike teachers and lawyers industries are quite capable of looking after their own problems. All that is required is sufficient deterence to screw ups. That would include fines large enough to bankrupt the bad ones and making senior management personally responsible for the fines.
 

beaker

Electoral Member
Jun 11, 2012
508
0
16
thepeacecountry
Contrary to what the socialists think there is nothing wrong with the industry self regulating. Unlike teachers and lawyers industries are quite capable of looking after their own problems. All that is required is sufficient deterence to screw ups. That would include fines large enough to bankrupt the bad ones and making senior management personally responsible for the fines.


Those are good suggestions, but I think we have gone beyond those points now. By the time fines, even jail sentences are assessed, and we know from past experience that corporations and their managers have a lot of money to fight court cases and usually avoid responsibility, the damage has already been done. One solution to the problem might be that any board of directors must have half its membership made up people opposed to the projects being proposed.
 

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
36,362
4,340
113
Vancouver Island
Those are good suggestions, but I think we have gone beyond those points now. By the time fines, even jail sentences are assessed, and we know from past experience that corporations and their managers have a lot of money to fight court cases and usually avoid responsibility, the damage has already been done. One solution to the problem might be that any board of directors must have half its membership made up people opposed to the projects being proposed.

That would just create inertia and nothing would get done.
The BC government has a way around this. The forest service has what are called "Administrative Penalties" Forest service staff has the authority to issue fines on site. These are mostly for bureaucratic actions like not being issued the right permit or wearing your hat backwards but as far as I know you can not fight them in court. There is a list complete with fines.
With a method like this it should be simple to tie fines to the volume of a leak or spill and have it on a sliding scale. Bigger spill equals bigger fine and frequency of fines has a multiplier effect as well.
 

beaker

Electoral Member
Jun 11, 2012
508
0
16
thepeacecountry
That would just create inertia and nothing would get done.
The BC government has a way around this. The forest service has what are called "Administrative Penalties" Forest service staff has the authority to issue fines on site. These are mostly for bureaucratic actions like not being issued the right permit or wearing your hat backwards but as far as I know you can not fight them in court. There is a list complete with fines.
With a method like this it should be simple to tie fines to the volume of a leak or spill and have it on a sliding scale. Bigger spill equals bigger fine and frequency of fines has a multiplier effect as well.

I disagree that nothing would get done if half the board of directors were opposed to projects proposed. It would be equally true to say that the projects would get done in the best possible way.

Administrative Penalties are a new one on me, but it would be interesting to see how far you could go with something like that. I would have to support the first court challenge of such fines based on the lack of due process. It might work for minor infringements where the cost would be much less than the cost of taking it to court and where the forestry official is not being a stuffed shirt.
 

Cabbagesandking

Council Member
Apr 24, 2012
1,041
0
36
Ontario
Contrary to what the socialists think there is nothing wrong with the industry self regulating. Unlike teachers and lawyers industries are quite capable of looking after their own problems. All that is required is sufficient deterence to screw ups. That would include fines large enough to bankrupt the bad ones and making senior management personally responsible for the fines.
If you leave iut the silly denigration of professional people and half of the world's population, history and experience will show that your approach does not work. For more than thirty years now the world has been in the grip of that self-regulatory fashion and it has brought nothing but economic disasters and corruption.

There are no deterrents to this other than by regulation. The likelihood of sizeable fines or similar sanctions will simply deter capable people from accepting directorships or senior executive positions. Those that do will spend their energies on covering up and finding ways around the laws: as is all too common now. Self regulation will exacerbate the problem of narcissistic leaders and the rules of the jungle that are the operative ones where regulation is lacking.
 

beaker

Electoral Member
Jun 11, 2012
508
0
16
thepeacecountry
If you leave iut the silly denigration of professional people and half of the world's population, history and experience will show that your approach does not work. For more than thirty years now the world has been in the grip of that self-regulatory fashion and it has brought nothing but economic disasters and corruption.

There are no deterrents to this other than by regulation. The likelihood of sizeable fines or similar sanctions will simply deter capable people from accepting directorships or senior executive positions. Those that do will spend their energies on covering up and finding ways around the laws: as is all too common now. Self regulation will exacerbate the problem of narcissistic leaders and the rules of the jungle that are the operative ones where regulation is lacking.

There is a lot of truth in that but I would like to see the option of the opposition to a project being required on the proponents board of directors. There are problems with it too, such as that these people could become as corrupted as the rest of the Board, but if they are elected by local environmental, social/cultural, and business groups for short terms the problems might be minimized.

I appreciate the regulations we have, and hate to think where we would be without them. Of course regulation is only as strong as the politicians and bureaucrats that are responsible for them, and we have seen lately how big a stipulation that is when the developers are in power.
 

mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
39,817
471
83


Northern Gateway may not be the best route, Danielle Smith says

Wildrose Leader Danielle Smith says transporting more Alberta bitumen to the West Coast is a must, but there might be better options than Enbridge's embattled Northern Gateway pipeline proposal.

Speaking on Tuesday, the leader of the province's official Opposition party said Alberta has "failed to get a champion" in B.C. to advocate on behalf of the pipeline project to transport heavy oilsands crude to the Pacific Coast and then onward to lucrative Asian markets. That means proponents must find alternatives B.C. will support, she said.

"I've heard that there are options that would go to the West Coast on a different route that might make more sense," Smith told reporters during a break in the Wildrose caucus retreat in Chestermere.

"There may have been in the past an easier time going through virgin territory," Smith said. "But something's changed in the last five years. Landowners are far more active and concerned, environmental groups are more active and concerned. First Nations are more active and vocal about it."

Land-locked Alberta must get its oil to new markets, she said. But it makes sense to look at existing rights of way "so that we can have the least amount of environmental damage."

Options to the west include a pipeline along rail lines or going to Prince Rupert or Valdez, Alaska, rather than the currently proposed ending point for the Northern Gateway pipeline in Kitimat, B.C., she said

Citing a need to diversify oilsands market beyond the U.S., the Redford government has long been a champion of Calgary-based Enbridge's Northern Gateway pipeline. Just last month while on a trade mission to China, the premier spoke about her desire to see the project win federal approval.

Alison Redford said the likelihood of the Gateway project becoming a reality and tankers carrying Alberta crude to Asia in just a few years' time is "promising."

But faced with opposition from environmental groups, First Nations and B.C. residents living along the pro-posed pipeline route, political leaders outside Alberta are increasingly questioning the proposed 1,200-kilometre pipeline.

Last week, federal NDP Leader Tom Mulcair said the Northern Gateway project is dead - or should be - following a scathing U.S. regulator's report on the Calgary company's handling of a 2010 oil spill in Michigan.

B.C. NDP Leader Adrian Dix, who is leading in the polls in advance of next year's provincial election there, said his party would intervene against the project "with everything we had."

On Tuesday, Smith said Enbridge will likely propose different routes to try to win more public support in British Columbia.

"It's very unfortunate when we have oil spills happen. It obviously makes it even more difficult for us to demonstrate to the world that this is a safe way to move our product to market," she said of the July 26, 2010 Michigan spill.

Alberta Energy Minister Ken Hughes was not available on Tuesday, but press secretary Mike Deising said the province has been a supporter of any project allows Alberta's oil to be marketed around the world and sold for a higher price.

"Of course there are other options (than Gateway) to the West Coast, but it is up to the private sector to explore those options and put proposals forward," Deising said in an e-mail.

Last week Hughes said the Alberta government will look at all options to ship oil to new markets.

"There are other proposals out there to look to send resources east. I've even heard north, and south - as well as west," Hughes told reporters.

"They're all legitimate, possible options. And we need to look at every one of them."