Man dies after Taser shock by police at Vancouver airport

[lone wolf]

Thing is, letting cops catch a buzz from the new toy is a lot different than zapping someone out in the field. The cops are in good physical shape and calm. On the scene, the target isn't so calm and may be in lousy physical condition. Maybe they better set 'em on lower-than-stun - or put the star trek gadgets away and get back into compassionate policing....

Woof!

 

[karrie]

Thing is, letting cops catch a buzz from the new toy is a lot different than zapping someone out in the field. The cops are in good physical shape and calm. On the scene, the target isn't so calm and may be in lousy physical condition. Maybe they better set 'em on lower-than-stun - or put the star trek gadgets away and get back into compassionate policing....

Woof!

last I know, no officer is given a thorough enough physical to catch any electrical abnormalities that might be present in their heart.

 

[vice]

Shooting any subject with any weapon (pepper spray, tazers, or guns) is dangerous and could cause death. It seems to me that making it mandatory that all officers get shot with the less lethal ones might help to create the false impression that they are 'safe' (and potentially kill new recruits). I can see why they'd make it voluntary.

Even though I'm alright with tazers being used in law enforcement, and I generally side with the RCMP & law enforcement, I can't help but think that many officers who use tazers are under the impression that these things are safe, and therefore they are trigger happy. Don't want to listen? Zap. *victim falls* If you don't comply I'll zap you again. *zap*. There is plenty of footage circulating on the internet and tv to show law enforcement officers abusing people with a tazer.

Clearly there was no sort of due procedure in trying to understand Mr Dziekanski in Vancouver. Apparently he was calling out for the police to come to him while they were approaching him, and he said "Have you gone mad?" in Polish when they aimed the tazer at him. He was zapped twice even though he made no aggressive movements toward the four officers.

This opens up a Pandora's box concerning the safety of tazer usage, the effectiveness of RCMP tazer training and protocol, etc. It's also pretty clear that these four officers should face criminal charges for using a dangerous weapon whimsically.

But of course, we know these four guys will be suspended with pay, the RCMP will justify their actions, no criminal charges will be laid, the case will be swept under the carpet, YVR and customs will claim their innocence, the family will receive no compensation, etc......

 

[lone wolf]

Welcome to Canada!....

Woof!

 

[Durgan]

RCMP actions. If 17 people were killed by police gunfire, there would be hell of an outcry. With 17 Taser dead, hardly a murmur. There is something wrong- Hear Stockwell Day. There has been too many cases of police malfeasance swept under the rug over the last few years. It is getting hard to swallow.

Now the spin has started. There was some babble on the CBC about "Excited Agitated Delirium. Expect to hear more about "Excited Agitated Delirium" from the RCMP spin doctors.

The only person who showed any sense was the lady, who was talking to the man before the RCMP arrived. The man was pissed off, but hardly violent, unless you consider throwing a stool violent- I don't. Imagine standing talking to four policeman and one zapps you in the gut with 50,000 volts. THUGS. Fcuknig THUGS. I expect better.

Durgan.
http://www.durgan.org/Blog/Durgan.html

 

[karrie]

Okay, while I don't excuse the actions of these four officers, I see a huge flaw in the comparison of 17 dead by taser versus 17 dead by gun fire.

The HUGE difference (and for this reason I find the use of the term 'murder' to be very wrong), is expectation of injury.

When shooting someone with a gun, there is an expectation of injury resulting in death. It's the ONLY reasonable expectation when firing a gun at someone.

When shooting someone with a taser gun, the same expectation of bringing about their imminent death is NOT there.

To compare 17 dead by taser gun to 17 dead by actual gun, and expect that public opinion regarding the police involved should be the anywhere close to the same in those cases is flawed.

 

[Durgan]

When shooting someone with a gun, there is an expectation of injury resulting in death. It's the ONLY reasonable expectation when firing a gun at someone.

When shooting someone with a taser gun, the same expectation of bringing about their imminent death is NOT there.

To compare 17 dead by taser gun to 17 dead by actual gun, and expect that public opinion regarding the police involved should be the anywhere close to the same in those cases is flawed.

This is the crux of the matter. How many deaths from taser have to be exposed before they are considered a lethal weapon? I consider 17 more than ample evidence of such.


Durgan.

 

[karrie]

17 versus how many uses though?

17 still isn't enough to make an assumption of death resulting from using these weapons. It's enough to warrant review, and to make the RCMP rethink their current heavy handed use of them, yes. It's also enough to put these guys clearly in the wrong as far as far as their actions on this one. But it's not enough to call them murderers.

 

[lone wolf]

Cops have little inclination to talk. They have the gun. They have the flack jackets. They have the feeling of invulnerability which means they have no fear. That also paints them as targets. Sadly, it only takes one bad cop to paint a target on ten good ones because "the Church" means they have to cover for the bad cop. You lie and I'll swear to it isn't a myth. Why does it piss me off so much? My son is a cop....

Woof!

 

[Tonington]

17 versus how many uses though?

17 still isn't enough to make an assumption of death resulting from using these weapons. It's enough to warrant review, and to make the RCMP rethink their current heavy handed use of them, yes. It's also enough to put these guys clearly in the wrong as far as far as their actions on this one. But it's not enough to call them murderers.

An expert last night said statistics were hard to come by, and that the most recent figures he saw approximated 8000 taser incidents, but that it could be as much as 16,000. Not very conclusive, and only another reason why there should be a full inquiry into the use of tasers.

 

[Colpy]

I think Tasers have a place, but I also think they must be considered lethal, and used only when the requirements for use of deadly force are fulfilled, i.e. the user must have cause tobelieve he, or someone else, is in immediate danger of death or grievous bodily harm..........

It is interesting.....17 deaths in Canada out of how many uses?

The rate for handguns is about 10%, in other words, about 1 in 10 persons shot once with a handgun will die from their wounds. That statistic comes from the FBI, and includes civilian shootings with all types of handguns. That may be higher for those shot by police or armed security, as they are apt to use more effective calibers, and highly effective bullets. With Tasers, it may be 1 death in 500 uses, or 1 death in 1,000 uses. Still too many for it to be considered non-lethal........IMHO.

 

[Durgan]

Tasers are being touted a basically as a replacement for firearm use. Not all firearm shots kill, but they leave a wound. A taser does the same, but doesn't leave a visible wound.
Many people are jumping on the bandwagon believing the taser is safer than the firearm. In fact, the invisible wound of the taser may cause severe long term damage.

The CBC is pursuing this point with the medical community. I await the report.

Any violent death, particularly by those whose duty is to "Serve nd Protect" is one too many in my opinion. There are extenuating circumstances that may excuse this action. But to play a numbers game comparing the number of deaths to the times used is nonsense.

A previous poster has mentioned that there is simply no accurate records kept as to use of tasers. I suggest this would be a simple statistic to keep.

The zapping in the Vancouver Airport certainly indicated the mind-set of those involved was that taser use was of little concern.


Durgan.

 

[karrie]

"Tasers are being touted a basically as a replacement for firearm use. Not all firearm shots kill, but they leave a wound. A taser does the same, but doesn't leave a visible wound.
Many people are jumping on the bandwagon believing the taser is safer than the firearm. In fact, the invisible wound of the taser may cause severe long term damage.

The CBC is pursuing this point with the medical community. I await the report."

And as I said, that's awesome. It would be nice if we come to a new understanding of their nature. The matter OUGHT to be reviewed.

"Any violent death, particularly by those whose duty is to "Serve nd Protect" is one too many in my opinion. "

Now, I tend to be a naive sort, but, how do you police violent people without risking bringing about violent death? I'm sorry... while THIS case has the police in the wrong, they can't do their jobs and never injure someone. There are just too many violent criminals out there to expect no one to ever be hurt in the process of the police bringing a situation to an end.


"There are extenuating circumstances that may excuse this action. But to play a numbers game comparing the number of deaths to the times used is nonsense."

How is it nonsense to explain the difference between reasonable expectation of injury and reasonable expectation of safety? These are statistics we use every day to balance what we as a society will and won't allow. It's how we measure the difference between murder and manslaughter in our legal system ALL the time. You punch someone and he suffers a brain aneurysm and dies, you don't get labeled a murderer, because the reasonable assumption is that NORMALLY you can throw that punch without it killing the other person.
[/quote]

 

[Colpy]

Tasers are being touted a basically as a replacement for firearm use.

Were this true, there would be no problem, as the requirement for the use of a firearm is that you, or another person, be in immediate danger of death or grievous bodily harm.....a Taser is NOT considered a replacement for a firearm, it is considered non-lethal........two completely different things.

Not all firearm shots kill, but they leave a wound. A taser does the same, but doesn't leave a visible wound.
Many people are jumping on the bandwagon believing the taser is safer than the firearm. In fact, the invisible wound of the taser may cause severe long term damage.

Obviously, tasers are less likely to kill than handguns...........the question is how risky are they, and how risky can they be before being considered lethal?

The CBC is pursuing this point with the medical community. I await the report.

Any violent death, particularly by those whose duty is to "Serve nd Protect" is one too many in my opinion. There are extenuating circumstances that may excuse this action.

I teach armed self-defense. I saw no extenuating circumstances.

But to play a numbers game comparing the number of deaths to the times used is nonsense.

So, how else do you establish the relative lethality of the weapon in question?

A previous poster has mentioned that there is simply no accurate records kept as to use of tasers. I suggest this would be a simple statistic to keep.

The zapping in the Vancouver Airport certainly indicated the mind-set of those involved was that taser use was of little concern.


Durgan

 

[TomG]

My point above was not that he died of a broken neck but that two potential deadly forces were applied simultaneously (Taser and knee pressure to neck). Amnesty’s point is that there was inadequate study of the effects of Tasers before they were deployed in police departments; and there has yet to be an adequate body of study.

If the understanding of the effects of Tasers is incomplete, how are adequate procedures and training for Tazer use designed? If Taser effects aren’t understood, how are procedures written where an unspecified number of Taser zaps immediately followed by pressure to the neck are considered standard? Ribs are commonly broken during CPR procedures. Does anybody really have any idea of the risks of applying uncontrolled pressure and constraint to an area near the brain stem (where the nerves that control heart, breathing etc. pass). I doubt it.

Any ideas of what may happen when there may be no muscle response to oppose mechanically forced ranges of movement or perhaps the effect of a seizure while the neck is forcibly immobilized? Anybody who thinks that applying pressure to the neck of a person who is in seizure or unconscious is standard should take a CPR course and see how much care is taken to protect the neck of an unconscious person.

Am I dumping of the four officials on the scene? No I’m dumping on their management for likely buying a sales pitch and lobbying effort. Tasers can be deadly. Presenting Tasers as a kind of wholesome alternative to firearms is entirely abhorrent to me.

 

[Unforgiven]

My point above was not that he died of a broken neck but that two potential deadly forces were applied simultaneously (Taser and knee pressure to neck). Amnesty’s point is that there was inadequate study of the effects of Tasers before they were deployed in police departments; and there has yet to be an adequate body of study.

If the understanding of the effects of Tasers is incomplete, how are adequate procedures and training for Tazer use designed? If Taser effects aren’t understood, how are procedures written where an unspecified number of Taser zaps immediately followed by pressure to the neck are considered standard? Ribs are commonly broken during CPR procedures. Does anybody really have any idea of the risks of applying uncontrolled pressure and constraint to an area near the brain stem (where the nerves that control heart, breathing etc. pass). I doubt it.

Any ideas of what may happen when there may be no muscle response to oppose mechanically forced ranges of movement or perhaps the effect of a seizure while the neck is forcibly immobilized? Anybody who thinks that applying pressure to the neck of a person who is in seizure or unconscious is standard should take a CPR course and see how much care is taken to protect the neck of an unconscious person.

Am I dumping of the four officials on the scene? No I’m dumping on their management for likely buying a sales pitch and lobbying effort. Tasers can be deadly. Presenting Tasers as a kind of wholesome alternative to firearms is entirely abhorrent to me.

I think there is valid evidence of abuse of procedure towards the over use of the taser and the officer restraining with his knee is negligent in it's application. Managment shouldn't be implementing something that is supposed to be an alternative to lethal force that is it self leathal. They weren't in really any dire position, and so I think over used something that should have been within the limits of subduing him with little injury long before death.

I wonder about that police force. Granted there are some tough over zelous cops but Vancouver sounds like L.A. at one time.

 

[Mass Effect]

Murder seems to be such a strong word. However as a new foreigner to Canada. I am surprised at the treatment the man received. I do not think the security of airport staff acted properly and maybe informed police of a situation which wasn't really playing out resuliting in polica to have a wrong mindset for the situations.

 

[darkbeaver]

The whole thing was very sad, I can't help hating the gunk-ho yellow-legs.

 

[gerryh]

The whole thing was very sad, I can't help hating the gunk-ho yellow-legs.

Really? and why is that?

 

[Durgan]

Apparently Bill Elliott, head of the RCMP, has called the OPP in to review the spin that is going to be presented to the public, after the RCMO investigation is concluded.

The video is straightforward nd conclusive. The investigation should have been concluded in about an hour. Now the public wants corrections and justice.
I suggest:
An immediate ban on Tasers until clearly defined operating procedures are implemented.
Charging of the four RCMP officers for neglegenced performanc of duty and using excessive force.
This is Elliott's chance to step up to the plate.

I will point out again: This matter would have been swept under the rug, had it not been for the video.


http://www.durgan.org/Blog/Durgan.html

Durgan