Liberal phobia and the cause….

[SirJosephPorter]

No that happens with improving your skills and knowledge and getting a better job.

An essential part of it is to guarantee the minimum wage for the poor. Without legal minimum wage, we may literally have people dying in the street due to starvation (something the far right wouldn't really mind).

Minimum wage protects the poor from unscrupulous employers. Particularly in times of high unemployment the employers would be free to cut the wages of the poor down to starvation wages.

Lack minimum wage will show capitalism at its ugliest. Indeed, without minimum wage free enterprise may become so unpopular that it may die an undeserved death. Minimum wage acts as a safety valve. It curbs one of the worst excesses of capitalism.

Anyway JLM, have you taken this idea of abolishing the minimum wage to provincial governments? Maybe one or two of them may appoint you as a consultant. But offhand, I cannot think of any provincial government extremist enough to even consider getting rid of minimum wage (except may be Alberta).

 

[SirJosephPorter]

With outsourcing a way of life for Canadian companies, we are quickly becoming a Third World country. Pretty soon unreal estate will only be affordable by the top 10% of Canadians. I don't care. I can built a warm, safe, secure roof over my head for $1000 and the building inspector won't even know where I am. People have come to expect too much. we are going to have to lower our expectations to fit the economic realities that face us.

But don't you need 1000 $ for that, Cliffy? Where are you going to get them?

 

[JLM]

That is the classic conservative, extreme right view, JLM. It has support only among the far right here in Canada and Republicans in USA. Minimum wage is supported by a great majority of Canadians and a great majority of Americans (who are stupid, according to you, as I said before, you are losing it. The surest sign of an extremist, a wingnut is that he thinks that anybody who disagrees with him is stupid).

You DON'T read properly- I never said anything against minimum wage. What I did say was raising it is stupid. Maybe we all have to come to a realization - perhaps the Conservative way is the correct way, much to my chagrin, as I don't have much use for any of the bastards.

 

[JLM]

An essential part of it is to guarantee the minimum wage for the poor. Without legal minimum wage, we may literally have people dying in the street due to starvation (something the far right wouldn't really mind).

Minimum wage protects the poor from unscrupulous employers. Particularly in times of high unemployment the employers would be free to cut the wages of the poor down to starvation wages.

Lack minimum wage will show capitalism at its ugliest. Indeed, without minimum wage free enterprise may become so unpopular that it may die an undeserved death. Minimum wage acts as a safety valve. It curbs one of the worst excesses of capitalism.

Anyway JLM, have you taken this idea of abolishing the minimum wage to provincial governments? Maybe one or two of them may appoint you as a consultant. But offhand, I cannot think of any provincial government extremist enough to even consider getting rid of minimum wage (except may be Alberta).

There's an old saying S.J. (and don't give me the B.S. about it being a Conservative saying) "God helps those who help themselves" and in my lifetime it's proven to be true.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

No I just rattled off all the Prime Ministers I could think of who have taxed us. That was the subject. Harper hasn't increased any taxes- he's been damn good, cut the G.S.T. by 28% and cut my income tax by a 1/3. I love that guy. (Even if he is a Conservative)

Then why did you include Harper in the list? And taxing us was not the subject, read your original post again. You condemned tax and spend philosophy. I asked you which of the politicians currently or in the near past has practiced it. You still haven’t given a single example of any politician who has practiced tax and spend philosophy.

Taxation by itself was not the issue. Tax and spend was. I stay with my original point. No politician currently adopts tax and spend philosophy but conservatives do adopt borrow and spend philosophy.

And Harper is damn good? But of course, He has cut taxes, that is all conservatives are concerned about. He has also shot up the deficit sky high, higher then even Mulroney. But conservatives are not worried about that. The deficits that conservatives rack up will adversely affect our children and our grandchildren, but conservatives (yes, conservatives like you) are OK with that. That indeed is the conservative philosophy these days, tax cuts at any cost, and hang the deficit.

Reducing taxes and racking up the huge deficit, is same as borrow and spend. And you approve of borrow and spend. You don’t idolize Harper even though he is a conservative; you idolize Harper because he is a conservative.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

You DON'T read properly- I never said anything against minimum wage. What I did say was raising it is stupid. Maybe we all have to come to a realization - perhaps the Conservative way is the correct way, much to my chagrin, as I don't have much use for any of the bastards.

Now we are getting somewhere, JJM. Conservative way is the correct way. There, was that really so hard? You finally admitted that you indeed are a conservative.

But why were you so ashamed of admitting that until now? As I said before, each and every opinion you expressed here has been conservative opinion and still you take offense when I refer to you as a conservative?

Anyway, I am glad you have had the epiphany; you realized that you indeed are a conservative, that Harper indeed is your idol.

And that is a rather strange view about minimum wage. You are OK if we have the minimum wage, but you don’t ever want to raise it. So decades from now, when prices and wages are ten times what they are today, you still want to keep the minimum wage same as it is now, effectively reducing it to 1 $ an hour. How is that any different form not having the minimum wage at all?

 

[SirJosephPorter]

There's an old saying S.J. (and don't give me the B.S. about it being a Conservative saying) "God helps those who help themselves" and in my lifetime it's proven to be true.

Indeed it is a conservative saying and it is nonsense, I don't think there is a God. These days the proper saying should be 'government should help those who help themselves'. And indeed, government should also help those who are incapable of helping themselves (handicapped, elderly etc.).

 

[wulfie68]

Anyway, I am glad you have had the epiphany; you realized that you indeed are a conservative, that Harper indeed is your idol.

OK I realize that you worship each Liberal leadership clone as they step to the fore, but just because others see a specific party as the best alternative for the present political situation, does not mean that they in turn idolize the party's leader as you do. One can vote Conservative and not love Harper, just as one can vote Liberal and not love their leader.

One other thing is there are differences between "Liberals" and liberals, just as there are between "Conservatives" and conservatives. The differences are probably more extreme in the first case. I am a classical liberal in some respects but definately NOT a Liberal.

 

[JLM]

Now we are getting somewhere, JJM. Conservative way is the correct way. There, was that really so hard? You finally admitted that you indeed are a conservative.

But why were you so ashamed of admitting that until now? As I said before, each and every opinion you expressed here has been conservative opinion and still you take offense when I refer to you as a conservative?

Anyway, I am glad you have had the epiphany; you realized that you indeed are a conservative, that Harper indeed is your idol.

And that is a rather strange view about minimum wage. You are OK if we have the minimum wage, but you don’t ever want to raise it. So decades from now, when prices and wages are ten times what they are today, you still want to keep the minimum wage same as it is now, effectively reducing it to 1 $ an hour. How is that any different form not having the minimum wage at all?

If the L.C.D. is kept constant you won't see prices sky rocket to ten times what they are now. It all begins with wages.

 

[JLM]

OK I realize that you worship each Liberal leadership clone as they step to the fore, but just because others see a specific party as the best alternative for the present political situation, does not mean that they in turn idolize the party's leader as you do. One can vote Conservative and not love Harper, just as one can vote Liberal and not love their leader.

One other thing is there are differences between "Liberals" and liberals, just as there are between "Conservatives" and conservatives. The differences are probably more extreme in the first case. I am a classical liberal in some respects but definately NOT a Liberal.

Glad to see some intelligence being infused into this thread Wulfie. I'm trying to get it through S.J.'s head that I am NOT conservative, NOT Liberal, NOT N.D.P. - just for whatever works in a particular situation and raisng min. wage is not one of them. Wage raises just fuel inflation.

 

[countryboy]

An essential part of it is to guarantee the minimum wage for the poor. Without legal minimum wage, we may literally have people dying in the street due to starvation (something the far right wouldn't really mind).

That is a pretty crude statement. I don't think you could name one "far right" politician in Canada who "wouldn't mind" people dying in the street due to starvation.

Minimum wage protects the poor from unscrupulous employers. Particularly in times of high unemployment the employers would be free to cut the wages of the poor down to starvation wages.

They would also be free to raise wages during periods of low unemployment, in order to attract and retain good workers who contribute to the bottom line.

Lack minimum wage will show capitalism at its ugliest. Indeed, without minimum wage free enterprise may become so unpopular that it may die an undeserved death. Minimum wage acts as a safety valve. It curbs one of the worst excesses of capitalism.

I'm not sure anyone was advocating complete elimination of the minimum wage. It seems to me the discussion was revolving around the raising of the minimum wage. Your wild and dire predictions on what would happen if it wasn't there does get in the way of a meaningful discussion.

Anyway JLM, have you taken this idea of abolishing the minimum wage to provincial governments? Maybe one or two of them may appoint you as a consultant. But offhand, I cannot think of any provincial government extremist enough to even consider getting rid of minimum wage (except may be Alberta).

Alberta, eh? You might want to withdraw your suggestion of JLM becoming a consultant, as that would take more money out of the government coffers which could otherwise be spent on raising the minimum wage.

 

[ironsides]

It is just a refusal to understand that raising the minimum wage will only cause the price of what is being manufactured to go up accordingly.

 

[countryboy]

Don’t change the subject, YJ. You claimed in a mealy mouthed way that Obama raised taxes. When I asked you to give an example as to which taxes he raised, you could not give an example. I wonder if you get your talking points from the Republican Central Politburo.

We are talking here if any politician practices tax and spend, as JLM has claimed. Since you could not give an example of tax and spend, you are trying to change the subject. That is a classic trick to hide the fact that one has ran out of arguments.

As far as I know, Obama hasn't really done much of anything yet, except a lot of talking. And one of the things he keeps talking about is government-run health care, which would indeed cause a lot of spending and taxing.

And, based on the emotional and far left stances you've been demonstrating, I was wondering if you are getting your talking points from Communist Central Politburo. Or would it simply be a far left textbook?

 

[countryboy]

It is just a refusal to understand that raising the minimum wage will only cause the price of what is being manufactured to go up accordingly.

It's either a "refusal" or an inability. What does get in the way of understanding that rather simple fact is the popular liberal habit of throwing money at a problem and then declaring it solved. If that doesn't work, they just crank up the emotion and yell louder.

 

[countryboy]

Indeed it is a conservative saying and it is nonsense, I don't think there is a God. These days the proper saying should be 'government should help those who help themselves'. And indeed, government should also help those who are incapable of helping themselves (handicapped, elderly etc.).

The "proper saying?" No. The proper saying should be "government should provide an environment in which people can help themselves, and not stand in the way of people working to better their own lives."

I am all for government helping those who are incapable of helping themselves, but I'm dead set against government helping people who don't want to help themselves.

"Your way" has resulted in too many free rides, thus placing an unfair burden on those who do work hard.

I realize you cherish the thought that big government is the cure for pretty much everything, but you're forgiven - that is just based on your ignorance of, or refusal to see how things really work. Your approach is an open-ended, academic one which has no accountability for the end results, thus making it unsustainable.

 

[ironsides]

Don’t change the subject, YJ. You claimed in a mealy mouthed way that Obama raised taxes. When I asked you to give an example as to which taxes he raised, you could not give an example. I wonder if you get your talking points from the Republican Central Politburo.

We are talking here if any politician practices tax and spend, as JLM has claimed. Since you could not give an example of tax and spend, you are trying to change the subject. That is a classic trick to hide the fact that one has ran out of arguments.

Obama for the most part been held in check, but for a starter, someone is going to have to pay those stimulus packages he handed out. Only way has to be increased taxes at some point. So he has raised taxes without officially raising them.

 

[countryboy]

Ye sounds good JLM, but Harper is on the radar looking to eliminate thousands of civil servant jobs ,

What are these people going to do?, be unemployed and from $20 an hour with mortgages and kids on their hands look for a better job when in fact the job market is weak?

To educate people it starts from Government, if Government is doing nothing to enhance the work force, the people can’t go to the bank and ask for loans to better them self’s when in fact we Are talking about people with limited know how resources.

I think our expectations of what a Government is there for have perhaps grown a bit too big. It's likely true that "to educate people it starts from Government", but I'm not sure that's the best approach. Why shouldn't it start from the people themselves? Sure, educational institutions are run by the government but that's a service. The will for the education should be based on individual motivation, in my opinion.

Again, I'm not sure if it's the Government's responsibility to enhance the work force. They could assist in the effort (educational facilities), but I'd be a bit nervous if they took over the management of human resources and development of skills in total.

The recent winter Olympic games showed that individual achievement can be a good thing when it comes to producing results, like gold medals. Those athletes worked their butts off to bring themselves up to a level where they could excel in performance. Sure, they had some government assistance in preparing for the effort, but the motivation came from within themselves.

If I think of the economy in a similar way, it's exciting to imagine what we could all achieve with the same levels of individual motivation combined with a minimal amount of government involvement.

We are a culture of individual achievers, whether we like it or not. By embracing and encouraging that, I believe we could become a model of a prosperous, fair, and sustainable society. Without government leading the charge.

 

[lone wolf]

Don't change the subject.... That is a privilege reserved for our resident narcissist.

 

[countryboy]

Now we are getting somewhere, JJM. Conservative way is the correct way. There, was that really so hard? You finally admitted that you indeed are a conservative.

But why were you so ashamed of admitting that until now? As I said before, each and every opinion you expressed here has been conservative opinion and still you take offense when I refer to you as a conservative?

Anyway, I am glad you have had the epiphany; you realized that you indeed are a conservative, that Harper indeed is your idol.

And that is a rather strange view about minimum wage. You are OK if we have the minimum wage, but you don’t ever want to raise it. So decades from now, when prices and wages are ten times what they are today, you still want to keep the minimum wage same as it is now, effectively reducing it to 1 $ an hour. How is that any different form not having the minimum wage at all?

The thread is about Liberal phobia and I see you're demonstrating some good examples as to how that phobia came to exist.

You are making up facts in your imagination, and then expounding on them as if they were true. If people don't agree with you, then you just screech louder. It is one way to "deflect the bullets" but it really doesn't accomplish anything, other than making the screecher feel good.

What makes it a phobia is the thought that real decisions in the past have actually been made on this basis. Perhaps it's not so much a phobia as it is a tragedy.

The Roman Empire had similar behaviours at the top of it, and that didn't bode well for their sustainability.

It might be a good time to turn down the screeching innuendo and focus on some facts. It would make for a more productive discussion and who knows...we might even come up with some realistic solutions that could help to solve some of the many weighty problems that are facing this country.

 

[countryboy]

Don't change the subject.... That is a privilege reserved for our resident narcissist.

Oops, sorry about that. I didn't mean to intrude on "hallowed ground" there. :lol: