Israeli Planes Attack Gaza Targets

Colpy

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OH good to know what the genius Newt Gingrich thinks. lmao.
.

All you have to do is START you on a conversation, and you make a complete fool of yourself.

I am not much of a fan of Newt Gingrich, but he has a PhD in History, and has taught history and geography at the university level.

That makes him DOCTOR Gingrich to you, in amy academic dispute. :)

And your CV?????

Israel is an invented country, invented in 1948, from there on Israeli's were invented.

Ahhh Israel existed 1,000 years before Christ, 1600 years before Islam..........................

From there Arabs have been losing their homes and kicked from the land they live ever since. .

As have Jews. About 750,000 Arabs left Israel, about 750,000 Jews were kicked out of Arab lands. Sounds kinda even-stephen to me......

. It's interesting you seemingly have a belief that whites have more right to land over Arab peoples despite that it was the Arabs there first.
.

Ahhh, excuse me??? WHITES???? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Jews from the area are semites, exactly the same race as the Arabs.

Nowadays when some nutjob Israeli tries to explain their rights to the land they will ramble about the bible and how god gave them those rights. There are also some Israeli's who know what is happening to the Palestinians is wrong and wouldn't dare justify their land grab. At this point they just want a peaceful solution.

Unfortunately, the "Palestinians" have proven they are incapable of making peace.
 

Goober

Hall of Fame Member
Jan 23, 2009
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The struggle against illegal occupation by the people of a country using "all necessary means at their disposal" has been supported by several United Nations resolutions that reflect the overwhelming consent of the international community. Resolution 2908 (1972) for example, which included this language, was adopted by 99 votes for, to 5 against, and 23 abstentions. Perhaps most clearly United Nations' Resolution 2625 (24 October 1970), reflecting principles of customary international law, clearly states that people fighting against an illegal occupation "are entitled to seek and receive support."

Even though I disagree with violence, Palestinian violence against the Israeli occupation is legal. However Israelis have a legal right to defend themselves if attacked. Neither side has a right to commit war crimes.

So you support killings based upon religion and citzenshup?
 

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
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OH good to know what the genius Newt Gingrich thinks. lmao.
Israel is an invented country, invented in 1948, from there on Israeli's were invented.



The Israeli's didn't flock to unoccupied land during the 40s. It was occupied by Arabs.
From there Arabs have been losing their homes and kicked from the land they live ever since. It's interesting you seemingly have a belief that whites have more right to land over Arab peoples despite that it was the Arabs there first.
Nowadays when some nutjob Israeli tries to explain their rights to the land they will ramble about the bible and how god gave them those rights. There are also some Israeli's who know what is happening to the Palestinians is wrong and wouldn't dare justify their land grab. At this point they just want a peaceful solution.

No, Israel in a very ancient country that had been trying to re-occupy Jerusalem and pretty much all of Israel as the UN partitioned in 1948 for over 2,000+ years. The Palestinians are interlopers who squatted on their land.
 

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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OH good to know what the genius Newt Gingrich thinks. lmao.
Israel is an invented country, invented in 1948, from there on Israeli's were invented.

Did your parents refuse to send you to school?

History of ancient Israel and Judah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Israel and Judah were related Iron Age kingdoms of ancient Canaan. The earliest known reference to the name Israel in archaeological records is in the Merneptah stele, an Egyptian record of c. 1209 BCE. By the 9th century BCE the Kingdom of Israel had emerged as an important local power before falling to the Neo-Assyrian Empire in 722 BCE. Israel's southern neighbor, the Kingdom of Judah, enjoyed a period of prosperity as a client-state of the greater empires of the region before a revolt against the Neo-Babylonian Empire led to its destruction in 586 BCE and the deportation of the elite

ancient Israel - Google Search



Check out where Damascus is.

 

gore0bsessed

Time Out
Oct 23, 2011
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All you have to do is START you on a conversation, and you make a complete fool of yourself.

I am not much of a fan of Newt Gingrich, but he has a PhD in History, and has taught history and geography at the university level.
I can get a PhD in history, he's a fat retard. **** all those GOP circus chimps, they're a calamity of the human race.




Ahhh Israel existed 1,000 years before Christ, 1600 years before Islam..........................
No it didn't, unless you take the bible as absolute truth.



As have Jews. About 750,000 Arabs left Israel, about 750,000 Jews were kicked out of Arab lands. Sounds kinda even-stephen to me......
750,000 Jews were kicked out of Arab lands before Israel even existed?

Ahhh, excuse me??? WHITES???? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Jews from the area are semites, exactly the same race as the Arabs.

They're white, they ****ing came from Germany and all over Europe (Israeli's).

Unfortunately, the "Palestinians" have proven they are incapable of making peace.
Stupid comment with no correlation to realty.
 

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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I can get a PhD in history, he's a fat retard. **** all those GOP circus chimps, they're a calamity of the human race.





No it didn't, unless you take the bible as absolute truth.




750,000 Jews were kicked out of Arab lands before Israel even existed?



They're white, they ****ing came from Germany and all over Europe (Israeli's).


Stupid comment with no correlation to realty.

Why is Colpy getting all the attention, I feel left out, segregated, that is harassment - well may be not harassment but unfair to say the least - but it is poor manners.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
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Ontario
Why is Colpy getting all the attention, I feel left out, segregated, that is harassment - well may be not harassment but unfair to say the least - but it is poor manners.
cubbyabtfetgoreobsessed has had a crush on Colpy since day one.

I actually thought that cubbyabtfetgoreobsessed was Colpy's sock puppet, someone to play with when the usual suspects weren't around, for awhile.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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I can get a PhD in history, he's a fat retard. **** all those GOP circus chimps, they're a calamity of the human race.


No it didn't, unless you take the bible as absolute truth.

750,000 Jews were kicked out of Arab lands before Israel even existed?


They're white, they ****ing came from Germany and all over Europe (Israeli's).

Stupid comment with no correlation to realty.

Seriously, I read this and was LMAO.

OMG! Get some kind of education!

You don't have a clue.

Now, from the top.

A PhD in history requires a working knowledge of THREE languages, intimate knowledge of the available literature on the subject, extensive original research, and a detailed thesis defended before established Doctors in the discipline.

You couldn't get a PhD in basket weaving.

Maybe self-stroking......

I don't like Dr. Gingrich, for a number of reasons, including dishonesty, corruption, and runaway ego. That said, stupid is NOT one of his problems.

The Bible is, of course, a historical document as well as a religious text. Any historian would know that.................but beyond that, the existence of Israel is part of the record quite separate from the Bible........it is Roman history as well, just for starters.

As for the movement of Jews from Arabia.....wikipedia will serve....

Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When did I say they left BEFORE Israel existed????

Actually, Jews came to Israel from all over, including blacks from Ethiopia..........but the majority of "European" Jews in Israel are Ashkenazi, descendants of Jews who left what is now the Arabian peninsula rather than live under the severe repression of the Romans, especially ater the failure of several Jewish revolts. In other words, they largely come from Middle Eastern roots, the same racial stock as the Arabs.

Although they also picked up some European DNA from their 2000 year stay in that area, their DNA shows mostly Middle Eastern heritage.

Jewish Genetics - DNA, genes, Jews, Ashkenazi

To try and pit the current struggle in the ME as white supremacy is completely ludicrous.

Keep it up, I haven't had this much fun in a long time!!!! :)


Why is Colpy getting all the attention, I feel left out, segregated, that is harassment - well may be not harassment but unfair to say the least - but it is poor manners.

cubbyabtfetgoreobsessed has had a crush on Colpy since day one.

I actually thought that cubbyabtfetgoreobsessed was Colpy's sock puppet, someone to play with when the usual suspects weren't around, for awhile.

Sorry to steal all the fun guys.......

He is kinda like one of those old-time kid jump up punching bags....you know, so easy to knock over, and they stand up again immediately to provide more fun....:)

They must be sooooo politically incorrect now.............
 
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CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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He is kinda like one of those old-time kid jump up punching bags....you know, so easy to knock over, and they stand up again immediately to provide more fun....:)

They must be sooooo politically incorrect now.............
Ya I have one of my own around here somewhere. Although he seems a little deflated these days.
 

gore0bsessed

Time Out
Oct 23, 2011
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A PhD in history requires a working knowledge of THREE languages, intimate knowledge of the available literature on the subject, extensive original research, and a detailed thesis defended before established Doctors in the discipline.
Nothing at all impressive about this, maybe to low IQ people such as yourself it's a staggering feat.

You did just call the bible a historical document.. roflmfao

When did I say they left BEFORE Israel existed????
Then how do you consider it "even-stephen" as you put it , when Israel forcibly removes Palestinians from their homes? I'm dealing with a true intellectual here aren't I? Mein gott.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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Nothing at all impressive about this, maybe to low IQ people such as yourself it's a staggering feat.

You did just call the bible a historical document.. roflmfao


Then how do you consider it "even-stephen" as you put it , when Israel forcibly removes Palestinians from their homes? I'm dealing with a true intellectual here aren't I? Mein gott.

In which you completely dodge the essence of the debate, as you have no idea what you are talking about.

Most (although not all) of the Arabs that left Israel were refugees getting out of the way of the fightingm and left voluntarily. Some were forced out, it is true.

Most (although not all) off the Jews that left Arab countries were fleeing oppression and threats, but left voluntarily. Some were driven out.

The numbers were practically identical.

That is exactly even.

You reveal your ignorance (not to mention your stupidity) by your reaction to the Bible as a historical document.

Idiot.

Anything written with roots that go back 2000 years plus is an historical document.

You are, once again, making a complete fool of yourself.

Pop up again, go ahead! :)
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Many/most Jews from Arab countries don't describe themselves as refugees. In fact, most are offended by this relatively recent description of how and why they came to Israel.

Shlomo Hillel, a government minister and an active Zionist in Iraq, adamantly opposed the analogy: "I don't regard the departure of Jews from Arab lands as that of refugees. They came here because they wanted to, as Zionists."

In a Knesset hearing, Ran Cohen stated emphatically: "I have this to say: I am not a refugee." He added: "I came at the behest of Zionism, due to the pull that this land exerts, and due to the idea of redemption. Nobody is going to define me as a refugee."

The opposition was so vociferous that Ora Schweitzer, chair of WOJAC's political department, asked the organization's secretariat to end its campaign. She reported that members of Strasburg's Jewish community were so offended that they threatened to boycott organization meetings should the topic of "Sephardi Jews as refugees" ever come up again.


http://www.haaretz.com/hitching-a-ride-on-the-magic-carpet-1.97357

Most Arab Jews moved to Palestine/Israel for the same reason that Canadian and American Jews moved to Israel. Most Arab Jews are just as much refugees as Canadian Jews who also moved to Israel during the same period.

Certainly many Arab Jews have reasonable claims for compensation for loss of property as a consequence of property expropriation, but few Arab Jews fled to Israel because they feared for their lives. No doubt Arab Jews during the 1950's faced increasing discrimination and rising antisemitism. But that was a direct consequence of Zionist atrocities that started a decade earlier and an ongoing war. Most Arabs considered support for Israel and raising money for Zionism as treason. At the time most Arab Jews moved to Palestine/Israel, their countries were fighting a war with Zionists/Israel. Fellow citizens and their governments viewed their actions about as favorably as how Canada and Canadians would view Canadian Muslims who sympathize, donate money or volunteer to fight with the Taliban against Canadian soldiers. Support for terrorist organizations is a criminal offense.

Should Canadian Muslims who renounce their Canadian citizenship to fight with the Taliban against Canada receive compensation for any harsh treatment by the Canadian government or property loss?

Would these Canadian Muslims be traitors or refugees?

Compare that with the Palestinians who by no fault of their own found themselves in the middle of an ethnic cleansing war. This interview of Israeli historian Benny Morris describes the Palestinian experience during this period:

Q: Benny Morris, in the month ahead the new version of your book on the birth of the
Palestinian refugee problem is due to be published. Who will be less pleased with the book -
the Israelis or the Palestinians?


Morris: The revised book is a double-edged sword. It is based on many
documents that were not available to me when I wrote the original book,
most of them from the Israel Defense Forces Archives. What the new
material shows is that there were far more Israeli acts of massacre than I had
previously thought. To my surprise, there were also many cases of rape. In
the months of April-May 1948, units of the Haganah [the pre-state defense
force that was the precursor of the IDF] were given operational orders that
stated explicitly that they were to uproot the villagers, expel them and destroy
the villages themselves.

At the same time, it turns out that there was a series of orders issued by the
Arab Higher Committee and by the Palestinian intermediate levels to remove
children, women and the elderly from the villages. So that on the one hand,
the book reinforces the accusation against the Zionist side, but on the other
hand it also proves that many of those who left the villages did so with the
encouragement of the Palestinian leadership itself.

According to your new findings, how many cases of Israeli rape were there in 1948?

About a dozen. In Acre four soldiers raped a girl and murdered her and her
father. In Jaffa, soldiers of the Kiryati Brigade raped one girl and tried to rape
several more. At Hunin, which is in the Galilee, two girls were raped and
then murdered. There were one or two cases of rape at Tantura, south of
Haifa. There was one case of rape at Qula, in the center of the country. At
the village of Abu Shusha, near Kibbutz Gezer [in the Ramle area] there were
four female prisoners, one of whom was raped a number of times. And there
were other cases. Usually more than one soldier was involved. Usually there
were one or two Palestinian girls. In a large proportion of the cases the event
ended with murder. Because neither the victims nor the rapists liked to
report these events, we have to assume that the dozen cases of rape that were
reported, which I found, are not the whole story. They are just the tip of the
iceberg.

According to your findings, how many acts of Israeli massacre were perpetrated in 1948?

Twenty-four. In some cases four or five people were executed, in others the
numbers were 70, 80, 100. There was also a great deal of arbitrary killing.
Two old men are spotted walking in a field - they are shot. A woman is
found in an abandoned village - she is shot. There are cases such as the
village of Dawayima [in the Hebron region], in which a column entered the
village with all guns blazing and killed anything that moved.

The worst cases were Saliha (70-80 killed), Deir Yassin (100-110), Lod (250),
Dawayima (hundreds) and perhaps Abu Shusha (70). There is no unequivocal
proof of a large-scale massacre at Tantura, but war crimes were perpetrated
there. At Jaffa there was a massacre about which nothing had been known
until now. The same at Arab al Muwassi, in the north. About half of the acts
of massacre were part of Operation Hiram [in the north, in October 1948]: at
Safsaf, Saliha, Jish, Eilaboun, Arab al Muwasi, Deir al Asad, Majdal Krum,
Sasa. In Operation Hiram there was a unusually high concentration of
executions of people against a wall or next to a well in an orderly fashion.
That can’t be chance. It’s a pattern. Apparently, various officers who took
part in the operation understood that the expulsion order they received
permitted them to do these deeds in order to encourage the population to
take to the roads. The fact is that no one was punished for these acts of
murder. Ben-Gurion silenced the matter. He covered up for the officers who
did the massacres.

What you are telling me here, as though by the way, is that in Operation Hiram there was
a comprehensive and explicit expulsion order. Is that right?


Yes. One of the revelations in the book is that on October 31, 1948, the
commander of the Northern Front, Moshe Carmel, issued an order in
writing to his units to expedite the removal of the Arab population. Carmel
took this action immediately after a visit by Ben-Gurion to the Northern
Command in Nazareth. There is no doubt in my mind that this order
originated with Ben-Gurion. Just as the expulsion order for the city of Lod,
which was signed by Yitzhak Rabin, was issued immediately after Ben-
Gurion visited the headquarters of Operation Dani [July 1948].

http://www.logosjournal.com/morris.pdf


Benny Morris (Hebrew: born 8 December 1948[1] in Ein HaHoresh, Israel) is professor of History in the Middle East Studies department of Ben-Gurion University of the Negev in the city of Be'er Sheva, Israel.


Suffice to say, Benny Morris is an expert and his research has been peer reviewed by other historians and scholars. Clearly Palestinian civilians in harms way left because it was the prudent thing to do. When the Arab authorities gave the order to evacuate, most civilians left in the same way that people leave when authorities give an evacuation order to civilians in the path of a hurricane. You could claim that civilians in the path of a hurricane left voluntarily. They could choose to stay and risk the hurricane, just like the women Benny Morris describes in an abandoned village:

Morris: A woman is found in an abandoned village - she is shot.

Maybe she should have listened to authorities. But then she probably would have lived out the rest of her life in a refugee camp without hope because she "voluntarily" left. Maybe being shot in your home is a better fate.
 
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In Between Man

The Biblical Position
Sep 11, 2008
4,597
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45
49° 19' N, 123° 4' W
No wonder there is no peace in this world. It is inhabited by lunatics.

Lunacy is purposely targeting civilians and stabbing an entire family to death including a 3 month old sleeping baby and a 4 year old toddler. An equally dark and depraved type of lunacy is throwing your support behind it and calling it "freedom fighting":

Palestinians should not be under control of a foreign entity and must gain independence by any means necessary.

Many of the Palestinians are living in atrocious conditions and have seen family members as well as friends murdered by Israel, they are justified in any violent actions towards Israel..

*Warning: Gruesome*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0slWXrjD1I&feature=related
 
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Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
21,887
848
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Saint John, N.B.
Many/most Jews from Arab countries don't describe themselves as refugees. In fact, most are offended by this relatively recent description of how and why they came to Israel.

Shlomo Hillel, a government minister and an active Zionist in Iraq, adamantly opposed the analogy: "I don't regard the departure of Jews from Arab lands as that of refugees. They came here because they wanted to, as Zionists."

In a Knesset hearing, Ran Cohen stated emphatically: "I have this to say: I am not a refugee." He added: "I came at the behest of Zionism, due to the pull that this land exerts, and due to the idea of redemption. Nobody is going to define me as a refugee."

The opposition was so vociferous that Ora Schweitzer, chair of WOJAC's political department, asked the organization's secretariat to end its campaign. She reported that members of Strasburg's Jewish community were so offended that they threatened to boycott organization meetings should the topic of "Sephardi Jews as refugees" ever come up again.

Hitching a ride on the magic carpet - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

Most Arab Jews moved to Palestine/Israel for the same reason that Canadian and American Jews moved to Israel. Most Arab Jews are just as much refugees as Canadian Jews who also moved to Israel during the same period.

Certainly many Arab Jews have reasonable claims for compensation for loss of property as a consequence of property expropriation, but few Arab Jews fled to Israel because they feared for their lives. No doubt Arab Jews during the 1950's faced increasing discrimination and rising antisemitism. But that was a direct consequence of Zionist atrocities that started a decade earlier and an ongoing war. Most Arabs considered support for Israel and raising money for Zionism as treason. At the time most Arab Jews moved to Palestine/Israel, their countries were fighting a war with Zionists/Israel. Fellow citizens and their governments viewed their actions about as favorably as how Canada and Canadians would view Canadian Muslims who sympathize, donate money or volunteer to fight with the Taliban against Canadian soldiers. Support for terrorist organizations is a criminal offense.

Should Canadian Muslims who renounce their Canadian citizenship to fight with the Taliban against Canada receive compensation for any harsh treatment by the Canadian government or property loss?

Would these Canadian Muslims be traitors or refugees?

Compare that with the Palestinians who by no fault of their own found themselves in the middle of an ethnic cleansing war. This interview of Israeli historian Benny Morris describes the Palestinian experience during this period:

Q: Benny Morris, in the month ahead the new version of your book on the birth of the
Palestinian refugee problem is due to be published. Who will be less pleased with the book -
the Israelis or the Palestinians?

Morris: The revised book is a double-edged sword. It is based on many
documents that were not available to me when I wrote the original book,
most of them from the Israel Defense Forces Archives. What the new
material shows is that there were far more Israeli acts of massacre than I had
previously thought. To my surprise, there were also many cases of rape. In
the months of April-May 1948, units of the Haganah [the pre-state defense
force that was the precursor of the IDF] were given operational orders that
stated explicitly that they were to uproot the villagers, expel them and destroy
the villages themselves.

At the same time, it turns out that there was a series of orders issued by the
Arab Higher Committee and by the Palestinian intermediate levels to remove
children, women and the elderly from the villages. So that on the one hand,
the book reinforces the accusation against the Zionist side, but on the other
hand it also proves that many of those who left the villages did so with the
encouragement of the Palestinian leadership itself.

According to your new findings, how many cases of Israeli rape were there in 1948?

About a dozen. In Acre four soldiers raped a girl and murdered her and her
father. In Jaffa, soldiers of the Kiryati Brigade raped one girl and tried to rape
several more. At Hunin, which is in the Galilee, two girls were raped and
then murdered. There were one or two cases of rape at Tantura, south of
Haifa. There was one case of rape at Qula, in the center of the country. At
the village of Abu Shusha, near Kibbutz Gezer [in the Ramle area] there were
four female prisoners, one of whom was raped a number of times. And there
were other cases. Usually more than one soldier was involved. Usually there
were one or two Palestinian girls. In a large proportion of the cases the event
ended with murder. Because neither the victims nor the rapists liked to
report these events, we have to assume that the dozen cases of rape that were
reported, which I found, are not the whole story. They are just the tip of the
iceberg.

According to your findings, how many acts of Israeli massacre were perpetrated in 1948?

Twenty-four. In some cases four or five people were executed, in others the
numbers were 70, 80, 100. There was also a great deal of arbitrary killing.
Two old men are spotted walking in a field - they are shot. A woman is
found in an abandoned village - she is shot. There are cases such as the
village of Dawayima [in the Hebron region], in which a column entered the
village with all guns blazing and killed anything that moved.

The worst cases were Saliha (70-80 killed), Deir Yassin (100-110), Lod (250),
Dawayima (hundreds) and perhaps Abu Shusha (70). There is no unequivocal
proof of a large-scale massacre at Tantura, but war crimes were perpetrated
there. At Jaffa there was a massacre about which nothing had been known
until now. The same at Arab al Muwassi, in the north. About half of the acts
of massacre were part of Operation Hiram [in the north, in October 1948]: at
Safsaf, Saliha, Jish, Eilaboun, Arab al Muwasi, Deir al Asad, Majdal Krum,
Sasa. In Operation Hiram there was a unusually high concentration of
executions of people against a wall or next to a well in an orderly fashion.
That can’t be chance. It’s a pattern. Apparently, various officers who took
part in the operation understood that the expulsion order they received
permitted them to do these deeds in order to encourage the population to
take to the roads. The fact is that no one was punished for these acts of
murder. Ben-Gurion silenced the matter. He covered up for the officers who
did the massacres.

What you are telling me here, as though by the way, is that in Operation Hiram there was
a comprehensive and explicit expulsion order. Is that right?

Yes. One of the revelations in the book is that on October 31, 1948, the
commander of the Northern Front, Moshe Carmel, issued an order in
writing to his units to expedite the removal of the Arab population. Carmel
took this action immediately after a visit by Ben-Gurion to the Northern
Command in Nazareth. There is no doubt in my mind that this order
originated with Ben-Gurion. Just as the expulsion order for the city of Lod,
which was signed by Yitzhak Rabin, was issued immediately after Ben-
Gurion visited the headquarters of Operation Dani [July 1948].

http://www.logosjournal.com/morris.pdf


Benny Morris (Hebrew: born 8 December 1948[1] in Ein HaHoresh, Israel) is professor of History in the Middle East Studies department of Ben-Gurion University of the Negev in the city of Be'er Sheva, Israel.


Suffice to say, Benny Morris is an expert and his research has been peer reviewed by other historians and scholars. Clearly Palestinian civilians in harms way left because it was the prudent thing to do. When the Arab authorities gave the order to evacuate, most civilians left in the same way that people leave when authorities give an evacuation order to civilians in the path of a hurricane. You could claim that civilians in the path of a hurricane left voluntarily. They could choose to stay and risk the hurricane, just like the women Benny Morris describes in an abandoned village:

Morris: A woman is found in an abandoned village - she is shot.

Maybe she should have listened to authorities. But then she probably would have lived out the rest of her life in a refugee camp without hope because she "voluntarily" left. Maybe being shot in your home is a better fate.

Benny Morris and the Reign of Error :: Middle East Quarterly
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
53
48
Colpy,

Regarding your reference to a critique of Benny Morris by Efraim Karsh in the Middle East Forum:

Rebuttal by Benny Morris: Efraim Karsh's article on the new Israeli historiography is a mélange of distortions, half-truths, and plain lies that vividly demonstrates his profound ignorance of both the source material (his piece contains more than fifty footnotes but is based almost entirely on references to and quotations from secondary works, many of them of dubious value) and the history of the Zionist-Arab conflict. It does not deserve serious attention or reply.

BTW, Morris is an ardent and unapologetic Zionist who agrees with most of Karsh's conclusions. If you really want to know how Morris feels about Karsh, Zionism and the morality of Israel's ethnic cleansing, check out his critique of Karsh's book "Palestine Betrayed":
Revisionism on the West Bank | National Interest, The | Find Articles
Morris's main criticism of Karsh is based mostly on the shoddiness of his work.

I also found a 6 minute debate between Ilan Pappe and Efraim Karsh.
Ilan Pappe and Efraim Karsh - YouTube
Notice how during the debate even Karsh doesn't deny or disagree with Pappe's statements about ethnic cleansing. For most historians, the ethnic cleansing issue is well established fact based on overwhelming and irrefutable evidence from declassified military records. The debate has since moved on to whether or not Israel's ethnic cleansing was justified and moral. Morris and other historians believe Israel can justify their ethnic cleansing, while other historians like Ilan Pappe find ethnic cleansing morally reprehensible. I'll admit Morris makes some good points defending Israel's ethnic cleansing, but I still agree with Pappe regarding the morality of ethnic cleansing.

Also, I'd be wary of anything posted in the Middle East Forum. Its mission is NOT to promote the truth.
The Middle East Forum promotes American interests in the Middle East and protects the Constitutional order from Middle Eastern threats. The Forum sees the region — with its profusion of dictatorships, radical ideologies, existential conflicts, border disagreements, corruption, political violence, and weapons of mass destruction — as a major source of problems for the United States. Accordingly, it urges active measures to protect Americans and their allies. U.S. interests in the Middle East include fighting radical Islam; working for Palestinian acceptance of Israel; robustly asserting U.S. interests vis-à-vis Saudi Arabia; developing strategies to deal with Iraq and contain Iran; and monitoring the advance of Islamism in Turkey. Domestically, the Forum combats lawful Islamism; protects the freedom of public speech of anti-Islamist authors, activists, and publishers; and works to improve Middle East studies in North America.
About The Middle East Forum
 
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gore0bsessed

Time Out
Oct 23, 2011
2,414
0
36
In which you completely dodge the essence of the debate, as you have no idea what you are talking about.

Most (although not all) of the Arabs that left Israel were refugees getting out of the way of the fightingm and left voluntarily. Some were forced out, it is true.

Most (although not all) off the Jews that left Arab countries were fleeing oppression and threats, but left voluntarily. Some were driven out.

The numbers were practically identical.

That is exactly even.

You reveal your ignorance (not to mention your stupidity) by your reaction to the Bible as a historical document.

Idiot.

Anything written with roots that go back 2000 years plus is an historical document.

You are, once again, making a complete fool of yourself.

Pop up again, go ahead! :)
You call it "even-stephen" because hundreds of years before Israel's existence some Jews were persecuted. So that then in your mind entitles Jews today to oppress the Palestinians so to make it "even-stephen". This is ridiculous simply put. I'm at a lost for words how dumb your thought process works.


That's happening to Palestinian families tenfold.
 

DaSleeper

Trolling Hypocrites
May 27, 2007
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Northern Ontario,
You call it "even-stephen" because hundreds of years before Israel's existence some Jews were persecuted. So that then in your mind entitles Jews today to oppress the Palestinians so to make it "even-stephen". This is ridiculous simply put. I'm at a lost for words how dumb your thought process works.



That's happening to Palestinian families tenfold.

Links?????
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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Colpy,

Regarding your reference to a critique of Benny Morris by Efraim Karsh in the Middle East Forum:


Rebuttal by Benny Morris: Efraim Karsh's article on the new Israeli historiography is a mélange of distortions, half-truths, and plain lies that vividly demonstrates his profound ignorance of both the source material (his piece contains more than fifty footnotes but is based almost entirely on references to and quotations from secondary works, many of them of dubious value) and the history of the Zionist-Arab conflict. It does not deserve serious attention or reply.

BTW, Morris is an ardent and unapologetic Zionist who agrees with most of Karsh's conclusions. If you really want to know how Morris feels about Karsh, Zionism and the morality of Israel's ethnic cleansing, check out his critique of Karsh's book "Palestine Betrayed":
Revisionism on the West Bank | National Interest, The | Find Articles
Morris's main criticism of Karsh is based mostly on the shoddiness of his work.

I also found a 6 minute debate between Ilan Pappe and Efraim Karsh.
Ilan Pappe and Efraim Karsh - YouTube
Notice how during the debate even Karsh doesn't deny or disagree with Pappe's statements about ethnic cleansing. For most historians, the ethnic cleansing issue is well established fact based on overwhelming and irrefutable evidence from declassified military records. The debate has since moved on to whether or not Israel's ethnic cleansing was justified and moral. Morris and other historians believe Israel can justify their ethnic cleansing, while other historians like Ilan Pappe find ethnic cleansing morally reprehensible. I'll admit Morris makes some good points defending Israel's ethnic cleansing, but I still agree with Pappe regarding the morality of ethnic cleansing.

Also, I'd be wary of anything posted in the Middle East Forum. Its mission is NOT to promote the truth.
The Middle East Forum promotes American interests in the Middle East and protects the Constitutional order from Middle Eastern threats. The Forum sees the region — with its profusion of dictatorships, radical ideologies, existential conflicts, border disagreements, corruption, political violence, and weapons of mass destruction — as a major source of problems for the United States. Accordingly, it urges active measures to protect Americans and their allies. U.S. interests in the Middle East include fighting radical Islam; working for Palestinian acceptance of Israel; robustly asserting U.S. interests vis-à-vis Saudi Arabia; developing strategies to deal with Iraq and contain Iran; and monitoring the advance of Islamism in Turkey. Domestically, the Forum combats lawful Islamism; protects the freedom of public speech of anti-Islamist authors, activists, and publishers; and works to improve Middle East studies in North America.
About The Middle East Forum

History is a wonderful thing.....and the search for truth can get interesting.

But the theory is this: he who engages in revisionism suffers the onus of proof.......or the conventional wisdom remains.

Benny Morris is the revisionist.

I am actually interested in your source material in this cae, and will give it a look, when time allows, which is not now.......