Israel...

[earth_as_one]

Oh yes....those horrible Israelis, who are now releasing 5 prisoners (in good health) and the remains 199 enemy KIA in return for the bodies of two Israeli soldiers abducted in Israel ALIVe and then (we will find) were tortured to death by Hezbollah.

Do you believe any of those Hezbollah soldiers were tortured to death rather than killed in action?

I would not be surprised if Hezbollah tortured these Israeli soldiers to death. If so, that would be a war crime. I also expect that Hezbollah soldiers were also tortured to death.

Israelis should expect that what goes around, comes around.

Even though the Israeli courts have declared torture illegal in most cases, Israeli authorities routinely torture their prisoners including children. I can't find exact numbers or estimates, but its likely that many people have died as a result of torture and medical negligence while detained in Israeli prisons.

UN.org

24 September 2007

Report of the Special Committee to Investigate Israeli Practices Affecting the Human Rights of the Palestinian People and Other Arabs of the Occupied Territories

...
...


59. There are currently more than 10,000 Palestinians detained in Israeli prisons and detention centres. The Special Committee was told that about 700,000 Palestinians had been arrested and detained since the beginning of the occupation in 1967. Some 800 persons are in administrative detention, without charge or trial. There are about 100 female prisoners and 400 children. The continuous search and arrest operations in the West Bank maintain the number of prisoners at a very high level.
60. On 6 May, Israeli human rights non-governmental organizations B'Tselem and Hamoked published a report entitled "Utterly forbidden: the torture and ill-treatment of Palestinian detainees", in which they stated that the Shin Bet security service used interrogation methods that amounted to torture of Palestinian prisoners. The Supreme Court of Israel outlawed torture on 6 September 1999. According to the report, in addition to physical abuse, other measures were used to break the prisoners' morale. "Special interrogation methods" were used for security suspects designated as "ticking bombs". These are persons that security services consider to have knowledge that can prevent an imminent security attack. The methods were described in the report published in May 2007 by the Public Committee Against Torture in Israel, entitled "'Ticking bombs': testimonies of torture victims in Israel". The Special Committee heard about the treatment of prisoners from several sources. In general, it was told that the General Security Service, IDF, police and even prison guards were well protected and so far completely immune from prosecution. Even doctors colluded by issuing health certificates that declared that a prisoner could undergo interrogation. The Special Committee was told that there were secret detention centres inside Israel. Torture was described as routine and facilitated by the late issuance of visiting permits, including to ICRC and lawyers. The impunity was said to come from both the political system and Israeli public opinion and that torture was treated as a marginal issue justified by the defence of the State. Sources said that the policies of the Israeli Supreme Court were identical to those of the army and security services and that it was showing enormous deference to the security establishment at the expense of the human rights of Palestinians.


65. Health care provided to prisoners was described as inadequate or almost non-existent. The quality of food was poor and quantity insufficient. Hygienic conditions were bad and there were rats and insects in some facilities. The Special Committee was told of a detention centre in Hebron in which there were no toilets. It was also told that up to 60 prisoners had been kept in one room. Some cells do not have daylight. Hundreds of prisoners have serious health problems, including amputees with infected wounds, cardiac, cancer and other chronic patients, and those needing surgery. Some diseases are generated by the conditions of detention. Several prisoners have died from medical negligence. Many sources mentioned the standard use for all ailments of what has become known as the "magical pill" (Akamol). On 31 July 2007, a 27-year-old prisoner died of severe pneumonia. On 25 August 2007, a 22-year-old prisoner died in prison despite complaining of inadequate medical treatment one week before. The Committee was told that many prisoners were in a terrible psychological condition.
66. There are currently some 400 children in Israeli prisons, including 5 girls. Five to seven children are in administrative detention. Contrary to international standards, Israel considers Palestinians below 16 years of age to be children, while 18 years of age applies for Israelis. Although 12 years is the age of criminal responsibility, children under 12 are also arrested. Children are arrested in the street, at checkpoints or at night away from their homes, with extensive IDF deployment. The Special Committee was told about the case of a girl who was shot with live ammunition from a distance of 20 m and was left bleeding for a long time by IDF. She was subsequently handcuffed to her bed in hospital. A boy who was under 12 years of age when arrested was subjected to severe torture and sexual abuse in prison and tried to commit suicide three times. There are no juvenile military courts. The majority of children are forced to sign confessions in Hebrew which they do not understand. Attempts are made during interrogation to recruit children as collaborators...

http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/1c...dca011a770e25c988525739200527e2a!OpenDocument

Gideon Levy, Ha’aretz, 15 December 2005.

...In 1999 the Israeli High Court “banned” the practice of torture, but despite the “ban”, torture practice continues unabated. Systematic torture, including a policy of hooding and stressing all Palestinian detainees has been routinely used in Israeli prisons for decades. The practices follow a “well-defined set of steps and guidelines … selected to inflict extreme physical pain and mental anguish without causing … traceable physical injury”. Torture and ill-treatment of Palestinians continued to be systematic and state sanctioned. The Israeli Court continued to sanction the use of physical force, including electric shocks and beating, amounting to torture in interrogations of Palestinians, by rejecting court injunctions forbidding the use of physical force.

As Alexander Cockburn wrote at the time: “’Moderate physical pressure’ sounds almost sedate. So does ‘shaking’, until one discovers that more than once Israel's torturers have shaken their victims to death...
http://www.countercurrents.org/pa-hassan030106.htm

...June 26, 2008

Israeli military continues to torture Palestinian children

[RAMALLAH, 26 June 2008] - On the United Nations International Day in Support of Victims of Torture, DCI/PS releases further evidence that Israeli military forces in the occupied Palestinian territories (oPt) continue to abuse, threaten and torture Palestinian children.

Today, DCI/PS is releasing two case studies to draw attention to the continuing plight of Palestinian children, in particular, the 700 Palestinian children who are arrested, interrogated and often abused by the Israeli military and police each year.

In one case, Israeli interrogators beat 15-year-old Ibrahim S. over the course of several hours. Ibrahim was then threatened with sexual assault for the purpose of extracting his confession. The accusation, which Ibrahim kept denying, was that he had thrown stones at the Israeli army when it invaded his village the day before. A Military Court accepted Ibrahim’s confession and he was imprisoned in Israel for five months.

In the second case, 14-year-old Mohammad E. was standing with a group of friends near the Wall which passes close to his village near Ramallah. Mohammad was suddenly grabbed by four men in plain clothes who proceeded to hit him about the head with the butts of their guns whilst spraying his face with tear gas. Bleeding from wounds sustained during his arrest Mohammad was coerced into signing papers written in Hebrew in which he confessed to throwing stones at the Wall. An Israeli Military Court accepted this confession and sentenced Mohammad to four and-a-half months’ imprisonment.

“Palestinian children like Mohammad and Ibrahim are routinely exposed to physical and psychological abuse, amounting to cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment and punishment, and sometimes torture during arrest, interrogation and imprisonment,” said George Abu Al Zulof, DCI/PS General Director. “Unfortunately, these cases are not isolated incidents as Palestinian children are systematically subjected to such abuses by the Israeli military authorities”, he said...

http://www.dci-pal.org/english/display.cfm?DocId=798&CategoryId=1

Or how about threatening family members of detained people of interest until that person commits suicide? Could that also be considered torturing someone to death?

13/04/2008

Rights group: Shin Bet uses relatives to extract prisoners' confessions

By Shahar Ilan, Haaretz Correspondent

Tags: Shin Bet, Palestinians

The Public Committee Against Torture in Israel has accused the Shin Bet security service of using relatives of individuals under interrogation to extract confessions.

In a report to be submitted Sunday to the Knesset Constitution, Law and Justice Committee, the organization says the Shin Bet makes unjustified arrests of family members, or creates the pretense of such arrests to pressure suspects.

The report further states that such methods are used against individuals who are already subjected to severe physical torture. In at least one case, the report states that the pressure led to suicide attempts by the individual under interrogation...

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/974151.html

Israel really isn't in a position to complain about the treatment of their soldiers by Hezbollah.

 

[Colpy]

Do you believe any of those Hezbollah soldiers were tortured to death rather than killed in action?

I would not be surprised if Hezbollah tortured these Israeli soldiers to death. If so, that would be a war crime. I also expect that Hezbollah soldiers were also tortured to death.

Israelis should expect that what goes around, comes around.

Even though the Israeli courts have declared torture illegal in most cases, Israeli authorities routinely torture their prisoners including children. I can't find exact numbers or estimates, but its likely that many people have died as a result of torture and medical negligence while detained in Israeli prisons.

UN.org







Or how about threatening family members of detained people of interest until that person commits suicide? Could that also be considered torturing someone to death?



Israel really isn't in a position to complain about the treatment of their soldiers by Hezbollah.

Bull****.

The piece itself said Israel had tortured, but gave no evidence or indication of deaths, except to say perhaps two prisoners had been shaken to death..........accidental death during the application of admittedly improper interogation methods.

There is NO excuse for torture.

So, Israel accidentally kills 2 out of ten thousand prisoners, a rate of .02%

Hezbollah intentionally kills two out of......two Israeli prisoners.......a rate of 100%.

Yet you back Hezbollah.

You back the wrong side, EAO, it is that simple.

PLEASE don't bother telling me you are neutral.

 

[earth_as_one]

I am not neutral and I don't back Hezbollah. I back the millions of innocent people terrorized by war. That includes Israelis and Palestinians. I just think our news and people like you have a pro-Israel bias. If I thought terror directed at Israeli citizens or the war crimes of Israel's adversaries were not suffieciently publicized in our media, I would post information about it to make people aware. But Canadians are well aware. In fact the news covers terrorized Israeli stories so well, we often get multiple stories over several days about the same incident which creates a perception of more terror incidents than what actually occurred. At the same time, terrorized Palestinian stories are rarely reported.
Study by the San Francisco Chronicle

[FONT=arial,sans-serif]* There were actually only 4 Israeli children killed during the first six months of the current uprising. One Israeli child’s death was reported in three different headlines.[/FONT]

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/chron/report.html

You say there is no excuse for torture. I posted evidence of Israel routinely torturing thousands of people including children. Where is your indignation?

I show that at least a few people were proven to be tortured to death by Israel. You excuse their deaths as accidents which occurred during interrogations. The people were violently shaken to death. They didn't slip on a bar of soap in the shower.

Israel has tortured thousands of people. I wonder how many times Israel has tortured people to the brink of death and then Israeli doctors revived them, so the process could be repeated over and over. Is this medical treatment ethical?

...A report by the Public Committee Against Torture in Israel,2 carrying detailed testimony of nine Palestinian men tortured between 2004 and 2006, again makes clear how Israeli doctors form an integral part of the running of interroga-tion units whose output is torture. Doctors, several of whom are named, saw the prisoners at various points before, between, or after episodes of torture (which in one case led to spinal damage and disability), did not take a proper history, made no protest on these men’s behalf, and typically prescribed simple analgesia before returning them to their interrogators...

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=38999

Israel locks people up indefinitely without any due process or trial. They torture confessions from children. Israeli authorities threaten detainee family members with harm, until the detainee attempts suicide to protect their loved ones.

Don't you think any of the above crosses lines that should not be crossed? I still don't see anything in your posts about Israel except excuses for their abuses.

 

[Zzarchov]

Deaths reported is a definitive pro-Palestine bias.

Its like "Deaths in Iraq", alot of American's get mangled and left vegetables that don't get reported as "Deaths" because of state of the art health care.


Now maybe you should show a graph of "attacks reported" by both sides?

I know its not in your nature to post things that would come off in Israels favour though, and If I had the time I would compile a more accurate list.

But suffice to say, the Media is far more Pro-Palestine than Pro-Israel, the media loves an underdog story.

 

[earth_as_one]

Here's more about Israeli Doctors and torture:

Medical ethics, the Israeli Medical Association, and the state of the World Medical Association

...In 1996 Amnesty International concluded that Israeli doctors working with the security services "form part of a system in which detainees are tortured, ill treated, and humiliated in ways that place prison medical practice in conflict with medical ethics."2 ...

...Blachar is on record in the Lancet as defending "moderate physical pressure" during the interrogation of Palestinian detainees: it is not often that the president of a national medical association uses a medical journal to defend what the rest of the world, and the UN Committee Against Torture, regarded as torture.3 ...

...head of ethics of the IMA, E Dolev, stated openly that "a couple of broken fingers" during the interrogation of Palestinians was a price worth paying for information.4 ...

...The blatant and apparently systemic disregard shown by the Israeli defence force during its reoccupation of the West Bank early last year and subsequently, has been widely reported: Palestinian ambulances fired on (231 incidents to date) and their personnel killed, sometimes after the ambulances had been cleared for safe passage, the International Committee of the Red Cross and other aid agencies obliged to limit activities in the West Bank as a result of threats to staff and attacks on vehicles and officers, severely injured Palestinians dying of blood loss because their relatives were not permitted by Israeli soldiers to take them to hospital, the safe passage of emergency supplies of food and medicines blocked, wilful destruction of water supplies, electric power, and the public health and medical infrastructure. Blachar's response to an editorial in the Lancet last year on these events makes his and the IMA position clear.5 6 Bar a one sentence reference to the principle of medical neutrality, he emphatically attacked the editorial en bloc and unconditionally defended the behaviour of the Israeli army. He implies that the death of Palestinian civilians was not morally equivalent to the death of Israeli civilians: this dehumanisation is the enemy of any universal application of medical ethics and medical humanitarianism....

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/327/7414/561

These Israeli doctors who facilitate torture could have interned under Dr. Josef Mengele.

 

[earth_as_one]

Deaths reported is a definitive pro-Palestine bias.

Its like "Deaths in Iraq", alot of American's get mangled and left vegetables that don't get reported as "Deaths" because of state of the art health care.


Now maybe you should show a graph of "attacks reported" by both sides?

I know its not in your nature to post things that would come off in Israels favour though, and If I had the time I would compile a more accurate list.

But suffice to say, the Media is far more Pro-Palestine than Pro-Israel, the media loves an underdog story.

Sure here are some more stats:

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the world’s major sources of instability. Americans are directly connected to this conflict, and increasingly imperiled by its devastation.
It is the goal of If Americans Knew to provide full and accurate information on this critical issue, and on our power – and duty – to bring a resolution.
Below are charts of nine little-known statistics.
Please click on any statistic for the source and more information.
Statistics Last Updated: June 23, 2008

Israeli and Palestinian Children Killed Since September 29, 2000119 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 982 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000. (View Source)

Israelis and Palestinians Killed Since September 29, 2000 1,055 Israelis and at least 4,830 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000. (View Source)

Israelis and Palestinians Injured Since September 29, 20008,341 Israelis and 32,744 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000. (View Source)

Daily U.S. Aid to Israel and the Palestinians, FY2007 During Fiscal Year 2007, the U.S. gave more than $6.8 million per day to Israel and $0.3 million per day to the Palestinians. (View Source)

UN Resolutions Targeting Israel and the PalestiniansIsrael has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none. (View Source)

Political Prisoners and Detainees 1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 10,756 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel. (View Source)



Demolitions of Israeli and Palestinian Homes0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 18,147 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since 1967. (View Source)

Israeli and Palestinian Unemployment Rates The Israeli unemployment rate is 9%, while the Palestinian unemployment is estimated at 40%. (View Source)


Illegal Settlements on the Other’s LandIsrael currently has 223 Jewish-only settlements and ‘outposts’ built on confiscated Palestinian land. Palestinians do not have any settlements on Israeli land. (View Source)


http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

 

[einmensch]

All comparisons evidence that our Media is Pro Israel-Pro Jewish--
Zzarchov -you can't prove your media nonesense--But suffice to say, the Media is far more Pro-Palestine than Pro-Israel, the media loves an underdog story. No it won't suffice it to say --who do you think you are, the Omnipotent One- you are suffering Delusions of Grandure

 

[darkbeaver]

Deaths reported is a definitive pro-Palestine bias.

Its like "Deaths in Iraq", alot of American's get mangled and left vegetables that don't get reported as "Deaths" because of state of the art health care.


Now maybe you should show a graph of "attacks reported" by both sides?

I know its not in your nature to post things that would come off in Israels favour though, and If I had the time I would compile a more accurate list.

But suffice to say, the Media is far more Pro-Palestine than Pro-Israel, the media loves an underdog story.

That's the tact that Israel employed for decades. Nobody has ever played the underdog to a more captivated crowd of rubes than the Israelis.

 

[einmensch]

Israeli Ambassador Alan Baker recently expressed his indignation over Canada's listing of Israel as a state that engages in torture in a training manual for diplomats.
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9336.shtml

 

[Colpy]

EAO, I may owe you an apology of sorts.

Israeli Defense Forces have said they believe both IDF soldiers died of wounds recieved during their abduction.

A whole different matter than being killed in custody.

Now, if Hezbollah just hadn't started the damn war, all would be good.

 

[darkbeaver]

EAO, I may owe you an apology of sorts.

Israeli Defense Forces have said they believe both IDF soldiers died of wounds recieved during their abduction.

A whole different matter than being killed in custody.

Now, if Hezbollah just hadn't started the damn war, all would be good.

Israel started the war Colpy. It was a precurser to the big one, it failed miserably, Israel will not recover from the downward spiral it has put in motion.

 

[earth_as_one]

EAO, I may owe you an apology of sorts.

Israeli Defense Forces have said they believe both IDF soldiers died of wounds recieved during their abduction.

A whole different matter than being killed in custody.

Now, if Hezbollah just hadn't started the damn war, all would be good.

Colpy, you don't owe me an apology. I have nothing to do with Hezbollah, nor do I approve of their tactics or methods. I'll admit to also being surprised myself to learn that these guys weren't captured alive. I believe that Hezbollah wanted these guys alive, but when I heard they were dead, my first reaction was to suspect that they interrogated/tortured to death or executed.

The prisoner swap was overdue. It should have happened within a few weeks after the July 12, 2006 raid. Israel shouldn't hold POWs indefinitely and there should be a limit to how long either side can detain POWs. Israel should release them in exchange for concessions from Hezbollah.

I don't trust Israel's version of what happened regarding Samir Kantar. His version is that he took the father and daughter hostage as he was trying to escape and Israeli forces killed these civilians. I don't consider either source reliable enough to trust. But I do expect that Kantar's experience as an Israeli prisoner included torture. Kantar isn't a civilian and he knew what to expect if captured. I have no sympathy for him. He should have been sent to the Hague to stand trial as a war criminal and then been convicted or released back to Israel as a POW based on the evidence.

I always considered the 2006 Israel/Hezbollah war as pointless. Retrieving these dead bodies proves the war was even more pointless.

I blame both sides for civilian casualties. You claim Hezbollah started this war. I don't see it that way. Cross border attacks on military targets like the Hezbollah raid was fair game according to the mutually agreed rules of engagement, as per the April Understanding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-Lebanese_Ceasefire_Understanding

Both sides agreed to leave civilians and civilian targets alone. Israel appears to have escalated this conflict to include civilian targets first. You can check the timeline here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2006_Lebanon_War_%28July%29


Hezbollah's initial diversionary attacks on July 12 didn't kill anyone, but they may have been a violation if the targets were civilian. I suspect they were legit military targets otherwise Israel would have complained. But I don't have enough information to make that determination. But attacking and capturing military personnel even on a cross border raid are within the agreed limits of the April Understanding. Israel's failed cross border counter attack was also allowed.

Israel appears to have violated the April Understanding first on July 13 when they bombed Beirut airport and a power station south of Beirut. These are civilian targets and the point was to punish Lebanese civilians not fight Hezbollah. Hezbollah had thousands of rockets, but they only fired four at Israeli civilian targets in response. That was definitely a violation by Hezbollah, although limited and in response to Israel's violation. I believe those four rockets were meant to communicate to Israel that if they continued to target Lebanese civilians and civilian infrastructure, Hezbollah was ready to respond by attacking Israeli civilians and civilian infrastructure.

The April Understanding has a mechanism for dealing with violations. They don't include bombing airports and power stations, nor do they include firing thousands of rockets into Israel. Neither side had to violate the April Understanding even if the other side did.

Regarding torture

Of course Israel tortures people. The evidence is overwhelming. Israelis are well aware their government and legal system allows Israeli authorities to torture people and many of them want to end it.

...The Public Committee Against Torture in Israel estimates that a considerable portion of all interrogees, if not most, had been exposed to interrogation methods which include "severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental." In other words these methods, as applied, cause, at least in their combination and accumulation over time, the level of gravity and cruelty that constitute torture as defined in international law.
In contrast with the years 2000-2001, the years 2002-2003 saw a deterioration in the treatment of Palestinian detainees by the GSS:

• Each month, hundreds of Palestinians were subjected to one degree or another of torture or other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment (ill-treatment), at the hands of the GSS and bodies working on its behalf. By way of comparison - in September 2001 we estimated that the total number of detainees being subjected to torture and other ill-treatment reached 'only' dozens. The numbers have thus increased dramatically.
• Each month, the ill-treatment reaching the level of torture as defined in international law was inflicted in dozens of cases, and possibly more. In other words - torture in Israel had once more become routine.

http://www.stoptorture.org.il/en/skira02-03

Canada was correct to train Canadian diplomats to watch for signs of torture whenever Canadians are detained by foreign authorities, including Israel and the US. The US and Israel may not like being identified as countries which practice torture, but an easy way to be legitimately delisted exists. Stop torturing people. These countries may no longer be officially on the torture watch list, but I expect that Canadian diplomats are smart enough to realize these countries' removal was based on politics, not evidence.

 

[lone wolf]

Now, if Hezbollah just hadn't started the damn war, all would be good.

Hezbolla, Palestine, Lebanon, Hamas, Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Russia, Germany, Rome.... Are you seeing a trend yet?

You're dealing with people with too much pride and too little good sense. What would it take? A sneeze that dampens the other fellow's spectacles? A fart that interrupts the other guy's monologue? It escalates from there. Expand ... retaliate ... thrust ... parry ... prod ... punch.... I think they need to be locked into a sand castle on the frequent flyer plan and forced to resolution or drop dead.

What came first: The chicken or its egg?

 

[darkbeaver]

Hezbolla, Palestine, Lebanon, Hamas, Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Russia, Germany, Rome.... Are you seeing a trend yet?

You're dealing with people with too much pride and too little good sense. What would it take? A sneeze that dampens the other fellow's spectacles? A fart that interrupts the other guy's monologue? It escalates from there. Expand ... retaliate ... thrust ... parry ... prod ... punch.... I think they need to be locked into a sand castle on the frequent flyer plan and forced to resolution or drop dead.

What came first: The chicken or its egg?

The chicken, I rekon. Jewish/Israeli intransigence in there rascist belief of being god chosen prevents a peaceful resolution. They will never accept a compromise, even if it means thier lives. We have both seen that sentiment posted here and elsewhere. Staying the course is one thing sailing over the edge of the world because of errant navigation is another.

 

[Zzarchov]

1.) EAO, there is a limit to how long you can hold POW

As the name implies, its during the war. Hezbollah can simply end the war and renounce violence. A ceasefire is not the end of a war, and one of the main differences is specifically about giving back PoWs (so they don't return to the frontline).

2.) Your stats again are ludicrous.

Some of them are good, injuries and deaths are fair. It doesn't say much mind you without context, which then goes to the way side with other stats:


Homes demolished? So it doesn't count when a rocket lands in a home and demolishes it then?

Prisoners held? Are you advocating Israel simply kill all the palestinian prisoners so that it holds the same number as Palestine?

My favourite one is the illegal settlements,

I can't help but notice that Jewish settlements in Jerusalem seem to be included. Jerusalam is not Palestinian land, its international land.

No showcasing of illegal palestinian settlements on international land though..


Numbers are great except they are meaningless without being able to show a pattern. Alls you can show is that the pattern is that Palestine is inneffective at fighting a war.

They don't show who started it, who can end it, who is the aggressor...

If we look at the numbers as it, it seems to give the impression that Palestine is the aggressor because its casualty numbers are higher, something that is a characteristic of the attacking nation.

Is that what you are saying? Israel is defending itself against Palestinian attacks? (Im guessing the answer is no).


That is why you need more comprehensive statistics.




IE)

How many ATTACKS have each side launched at each other?

Of those, what percent were purely military?
Military target with too many civilians near?
purely civilian?

How many prisoners are kept versus how many are executed or otherwise die in custody?

How many attacks are launched vs how many could be launched?




The stats you are posting, the way you are posting them, implies Israel is the defender and you main problem is that they are winning the war rather than surrendering, followed by anger that they take prisoners rather than executing all who stand against them.

If the facts are on your side, you don't need to massage them to try to get them to fit.

 

[lone wolf]

If we look at the numbers as it, it seems to give the impression that Palestine is the aggressor because its casualty numbers are higher, something that is a characteristic of the attacking nation.

Um ... Zarch. Pearl Harbour? London? Dresden? Twenty-first century calling.... Have you ever heard of aerial assault. Why do you suppose Israel has all those things with wings? Why risk people on the ground when you can just indiscrimately bomb anything in the vicinity?


If the facts are on your side, you don't need to massage them to try to get them to fit.

There's massage ... then there's a total propagandic makeover

 

[darkbeaver]

Ya he musta just forgot the aircraft eh. We can add the economic warfare and the standard genocidal attacks as well. Shutting off the fuel and food count big time.

 

[Zzarchov]

Um ... Zarch. Pearl Harbour? London? Dresden? Twenty-first century calling.... Have you ever heard of aerial assault. Why do you suppose Israel has all those things with wings? Why risk people on the ground when you can just indiscrimately bomb anything in the vicinity?

There's massage ... then there's a total propagandic makeover

Those are specific and often unusual instances in a larger war, up until the breaking point the attacking nation will take a higher level of casualties all else equal. That is the advantage of being dug in.

Now of course, all else isn't equal, which is the point I was making. So how about showing ALL of the information.


I hope no one is seriously pretending Israel is trying to kill Palestinians with as much effort as Palestine militants are trying to whipe out Israel.

If you honestly believe a spike in unemployment, more expensive chocolate bars and a few thousand extra dead is the best a nuclear armed first world nation of greater size can do to a third world group plagued by internal civil war then I have to worry about your faculties. Its obvious Israel has kids gloves on relative to how they are treated and how the region operates against dissent (See Syria VS Muslim Brotherhood/Hezbolla and Saddams Iraq vs the Kurds and Shia).

Palestinian militants however are not pulling any punches and do deliberately target civilian targets without even the pretense of "caught in the crossfire"

 

[lone wolf]

No ... I'm concerned for the ten relatively innocent Palestinians Israel murders as an example to those Palestinian militants - aka Germany vs the Resistance (Sorry ... That's collateral damage isn't it since you disqualified caught in a crossfire)

I do not subscribe to your Israel can do no wrong theory any more than I believe Palestinians are completely innocent. There is a middle ground here that it seems you just don't want to see.

BTW ... what happened to the home and family of that Palestinian who went on a postal rampage with the front end loader? The story seems to have vanished....

 

[earth_as_one]

1.) EAO, there is a limit to how long you can hold POW

As the name implies, its during the war. Hezbollah can simply end the war and renounce violence. A ceasefire is not the end of a war, and one of the main differences is specifically about giving back PoWs (so they don't return to the frontline).

2.) Your stats again are ludicrous.

Some of them are good, injuries and deaths are fair. It doesn't say much mind you without context, which then goes to the way side with other stats:


Homes demolished? So it doesn't count when a rocket lands in a home and demolishes it then?

Prisoners held? Are you advocating Israel simply kill all the palestinian prisoners so that it holds the same number as Palestine?

My favourite one is the illegal settlements,

I can't help but notice that Jewish settlements in Jerusalem seem to be included. Jerusalam is not Palestinian land, its international land.

No showcasing of illegal palestinian settlements on international land though..


Numbers are great except they are meaningless without being able to show a pattern. Alls you can show is that the pattern is that Palestine is inneffective at fighting a war.

They don't show who started it, who can end it, who is the aggressor...

If we look at the numbers as it, it seems to give the impression that Palestine is the aggressor because its casualty numbers are higher, something that is a characteristic of the attacking nation.

Is that what you are saying? Israel is defending itself against Palestinian attacks? (Im guessing the answer is no).


That is why you need more comprehensive statistics.




IE)

How many ATTACKS have each side launched at each other?

Of those, what percent were purely military?
Military target with too many civilians near?
purely civilian?

How many prisoners are kept versus how many are executed or otherwise die in custody?

How many attacks are launched vs how many could be launched?




The stats you are posting, the way you are posting them, implies Israel is the defender and you main problem is that they are winning the war rather than surrendering, followed by anger that they take prisoners rather than executing all who stand against them.

If the facts are on your side, you don't need to massage them to try to get them to fit.

Israel and Lebanon have been at war since 1948. They've never had peace, only ceasefires. I suppose that neither side has to release anyone. That pretty much leaves capturing prisoners as the only way to free prisoners. That's why both Israel and hezbollah resort to this tactic.

On 28 July 1989, Sheikh Abdel Karim Obeid was kidnapped from his house in the village of Jibchit in Southern Lebanon. At 2.00 am Israeli commandos staged a well-planned kidnapping performed by over 30 men which took no more than seven minutes. Sheikh Obeid’s wife, Umm Sajed was tied and beaten up whilst his son Sajed, aged seven was threatened with a gun. A neighbour, Hussain Abu Zaid was killed as Sheikh Obeid and two others, a cousin Ahmed Obeid and friend Ashem Fahs were taken away. Throughout the entire kidnapping, Israeli fighter planes carried out a mock air raid over the village to hide the sound of the helicopters used to take Sheikh Obeid to “Israel”.
Sheikh Obeid’s “crime” was being an outspoken opponent of Israel’s occupation of Southern Lebanon. He was a well-known preacher and represented the views of the Lebanese people.

Sheikh Obeid has been held captive by the Israeli Defence Force, without charge and denied access to friends, family, and lawyers since July 1989. He and Mustafa Dirani, a disabled Lebanese national from the Bekaa valley, who was kidnapped in 1994, are being held on the pretext of gaining more information about an Israeli airforce navigator, Ron Arad, who was shot down during a bombing raid over Lebanon in 1986.

http://www.inminds.co.uk/sheikh-obeid.html

In this context, the Hezbollah commando raid into Israel to capture prisoners to exchange in 2006 is not unusual in this conflict.

Also while researching I came across Hezbollah's version of events which led to Samir Kintar's capture:

Al Manar

Kintar participated in the armed resistance against the Israeli invasion of southern Lebanon in 1978, as well as in aiding the citizens who were forced to leave their towns and villages under heavy Israeli bombardment. He attempted to carry out a military operation against the Israeli enemy forces in June 1978, through Jordan, but the mission was aborted for military reasons. After one month, Samir went back to Jordan to carry another operation against Israeli forces but he was captured by Jordanian authorities. As a result, he was imprisoned in Jordan for eight months from January 31 until December 25.

Kintar’s eight months of imprisonment in an Arab jail did not kill his wish to combat oppression and occupation.

Months after his release, the brave teenager carried out an operation dubbed "The Nasser Operation" after Egyptian leader Jamal Abdul Nasser. The operation centered on Naharya settlement and was executed on April 22, 1979. Kintar was leading the group which included Abdel Majeed Asslan (born in 1955), Mhanna Salim Al Muayed (born in 1960) and Ahmad Al Abrass (born in 1949).

The group departed from the seashore of Tyre in south Lebanon using a 55 horse-powered rubber boat with an 88 km/hr speed. The goal of the operation was reaching Naharya where a military base is located, 10KM away from the Lebanese borders, in an attempt to capture Israeli soldiers and later exchange them by Arab detainees in Israeli prisons.

For the Israelis, reaching Naharya without carrying out any attack was in itself a dangerous precedent that also gave Kintar and his comrades their medals of honor.
Kintar amazingly maneuvered his motor boat through sixth squadrons of warships then hid the boat right – under the noses of the Israeli seashore guards and radar; and then managed to enter the settlement, after combating an Israeli patrol squad.

Kintar and his colleagues reached the seashore of military settlement of Naharya that in addition to the military base, had a police center, a military academy, the coastal guards and artillery, the naval alarm network and the head quarters for the Israeli warships (Chairborg).

The group stormed into “building 61” in Jabootinsk and split into two units combating a police patrol. Israeli sergeant (Elyaho Shahar) from the Maalot settlement was killed. In addition, Kintar’s group was able to capture Israeli atomic scientist Dan Harn.

At the end of the battle, Kintar and his comrades were down either dead or injured. Abdul Majeed Asslan got martyred and Mhanna Al Muayed was seriously wounded in head and later died. As for Samir, he was hit by five bullets all over his body as he mentioned in one of his letters; he was under fire from all directions “that even the two hostages who were with me were killed in the crossfire.” Having fell to the ground and became unable to move, Kantar and his colleague Ahmad Al Abrass were captured by Israeli forces but later on, in 1985, Ahmed Al-Abras was released in a prisoners exchange deal...

http://www.almanar.com.lb/NewsSite/NewsDetails.aspx?id=50280&language=en

Kintar admits taking hostages, but does claims they were killed along with his collegue. If true, its not a stretch to believe that Isarel would blame the deaths on enemy agents rather than their own forces.

I don't believe either side is trustworthy. But a couple things don't make sense regarding the israeli version of events. Why someone would kill their hostages? Why would Israeli forces spare Kintar's life after he killed his hostages, especially in such a brutal way? Also if the girl was killed by blunt force rather than gunfire, an autopsy should have conclusively revealed cause of death. But I can't find any information on this.

Regarding home demolitions, I suppose Z, that when Israel demolishes a Palestinian home, they make sure it stays demolished. Its usually associated with yet another land grab and settlement expansion. Those Katusha rockets don't appear to be powerful enough to level a house. Damage it and or kill people for sure, but afterwards, the house is repaired and the owner moves back in.

Counting bodies is more accurate than counting attacks. Israel could nuke gaza and that would only count as one attack. Would that be the equivalent of a Palestinian rocket exploding harmlessly in a farmer's field as most do? Israel's adversaries probably feel justified to kill as many civilians as Israel. I would disagree with that. Neither side has a right to target civilians.

A rocket attack against civilian targets is a war crime. But so is dropping a 500 pound bomb on an apartment building, killing dozens of innocent civilians. Both are single attacks but they aren't the same thing. One is more random, the other is more deliberate. The rocket's purpose is terror, but it has a slim chance of causing damage, let alone killing someone. The order to drop a 500 pound bomb on a building full of civilians had a fairly certain outcome. But both are war crimes.

The stats I posted show that the level of suffering in Palestine is far greater than the level of suffering in Israel. By every measure the people being squeezed off the land to make way for Israel's creation and growth are worse off than Israelis. They have no rights, no freedom, no citizenship and no hope for a better future. Predictably, some of these people will resort to violence.