Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Does Israel have the right to exist with secure borders free from attack


  • Total voters
    42

earth_as_one

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Jan 5, 2006
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EAO
Here it is - You use a Jew as so called cover -You are blatantly Anti -Isreal- Anti Jew -

Post 22Canaduh
Quoting petros


If Israel has the right to kill for their land what is keeping the original North Americans from puttting you or I in a blue UN casket without facing criminal charges?Canaduh

The Native American "holocaust" happened before the media could latch onto it, not to mention the fact they dont own the media like the jews do. Every time the Israels do something or someone speaks out against them they play the holocaust get out of jail free card.

Post 42

I would have expected the 65th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz to get far less coverage than the 65th anniversary of D-Day, the end of WW II or even the second anniversary of Israel's ongoing Gaza blockade/crime against humanity. The holocaust gets more news coverage now than when it was happening.



I would agree that the holocaust is an important historical event, but that's not why it gets so much news coverage. I'm inclined to agree with Canaduh's and Finklestein's observations regarding the constant and overwhelming Holocaust news coverage.
Its being used as cover for Israeli atrocities.

First off, I'm not responsible for what other people write.

I admit freely to being blatantly anti-"Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity". Its consistent with being a humanist who believes in universal human rights

I don't know who Canaduh is. All I wrote is that his statement was more or less in line with the position of Norman G. Finkelstein and I agree with Finkelstein. The other statements were made by other people and your attempt to tar me with their words are to quote Finkelstein "Beyond Chutzpuh".

You can read Finkelstein's position regarding the the use of Holocaust as cover for Israeli atrocities here and decide for yourself if his writings are anti-Semitic:

Norman G. Finkelstein » The Holocaust Industry

IMO, I find your alleged belief that I am anti-Semitic, because I agree with a Jewish scholar whose parents were Holocaust survivors, ridiculous.

Norman Gary Finkelstein (born December 8, 1953) is an American political scientist and author, whose primary fields of research are the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the politics of the Holocaust. A graduate of Binghamton University, he received his Ph.D in Political Science from Princeton University. He has held faculty positions at Brooklyn College, Rutgers University, Hunter College, New York University, and, most recently, DePaul University, where he was an assistant professor from 2001 to 2007....

...His mother, Maryla Husyt Finkelstein, grew up in Warsaw, Poland, and survived the Warsaw Ghetto and the Majdanek concentration camp, as well as two slave labor camps. Her first husband died in the war. She considered the day of her liberation as the most horrible day of her life, since it first struck her then that she was alone, none of her parents and siblings having managed to survive. Norman's father, Zacharias Finkelstein, was a survivor of both the Warsaw Ghetto and the Auschwitz concentration camp.[5]...

Norman Finkelstein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
No surprise, Finkelstein is also the subject of personal attacks on his credibility from Israeli war criminals apologists.

Recently Finkelstein just wrote a new book. You can find out more about it here:
Norman G. Finkelstein
Guess the topic?

What I believe about you Goober is that even you don't believe I am anti-Semitic. You are just trying pin that label on me in order to discredit my opinions, rather than debate Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity. You'd prefer people remain ignorant of Israeli war crimes like bombing hospitals, firing on ambulances and preventing the International Red Cross from bringing medical aid to wounded civilians. Here is an example of a story, that you don't want people to know:

January 8, 2009
Red Cross finds starving children with 12 corpses in Gaza 'house of horrors'


(Reuters)

The ICRC believes there are more wounded sheltering in the ruins of shelled houses in Gaza and has demanded that the Israeli military provide access for a search

The International Committee of the Red Cross has accused the Israeli military of "unacceptable" conduct and breaching international humanitarian law after discovering four emaciated children living next to the corpses of their mothers and other adults in bomb-shattered houses in Gaza City.

The ICRC said that it had spent four days seeking Israeli guarantees of safe passage so that it could gain access to the houses in the badly damaged Zaytun neighbourhood of the city. It was finally allowed to send in a rescue team and four Palestine Red Crescent Society ambulances yesterday afternoon and said today that what they found was shocking.

In one house they discovered four small children, alive but too weak to stand, next to the bodies of their dead mothers. In all their were 12 dead bodies lying on mattresses.

In another house they found 15 survivors of the Israeli bombardment, several of them wounded, and in a third, three corpses. At that point they were ordered to leave by Israeli soldiers manning a post some 80 metres away, but they refused to do so.

The children and the wounded had to be taken to the ambulances by donkey cart because earth walls erected by the Israeli army made it impossible to bring the vehicles close enough to the houses. In all, the rescue team removed 18 wounded and 12 others who were extremely exhausted. It took away two corpses and plans to return to fetch 13 more tomorrow.

The ICRC said that it believed there were more wounded sheltering in the ruins of other houses in the same neighbourhood, and in an unusually robust public statement issued by the organisation's Geneva headquarters it demanded that the Israeli military grant it immediate access to search for them.

"This is a shocking incident," Pierre Wettach, the ICRC's head of delegation for Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories, said. "The Israeli military must have been aware of the situation but did not assist the wounded. Neither did they make it possible for us or the Palestine Red Crescent to assist the wounded."

The ICRC accused the Israeli military of failing to meet its obligation under international humanitarian law to care for and remove the wounded, and called the delay in allowing rescue services access unacceptable.

The ICRC's charges were another setback for the Israeli military. On Tuesday it killed more than 40 people in a bomb attack on a UN school...

Red Cross finds starving children with 12 corpses in Gaza 'house of horrors' - Times Online
Yes I am against blocking the ICRC from rescuing trapped and starving children. You obviously support people who commit war crimes and crimes against humanity. Shame on you!
 
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Goober

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EAO
I will set saide my opinion that you are anti Jew -

But you and I will both stop posting lenghty diatribes about War Crimes commited by both Arab and Jew and Persian - Is that a fair agreement?
Need 2 to Tango -

You voted Unsure as to "Does Israel have the right to exist with secure borders free from attack"
I am interested in why? OK
 

MHz

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Mar 16, 2007
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Red Deer AB
I am interested in why? OK
I am interested in why you always make the poll question into a sentence that of loaded with many meanings?
Coming to an agreement over the past issues is mandatory before even discussing present day issues. Even the UN call some land as being occupied, let Israel come to the table and solve all those issues and see how fast security is established. BTW the sea to Gaza being blocked via the open sea is a war-crime and 20 carriers and support craft should be there defending Gaza.
.... what's that ...... never mind the carriers, apparently they need some new olive trees more.
 

Goober

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I am interested in why you always make the poll question into a sentence that of loaded with many meanings?
Coming to an agreement over the past issues is mandatory before even discussing present day issues. Even the UN call some land as being occupied, let Israel come to the table and solve all those issues and see how fast security is established. BTW the sea to Gaza being blocked via the open sea is a war-crime and 20 carriers and support craft should be there defending Gaza.
.... what's that ...... never mind the carriers, apparently they need some new olive trees more.
Not a loaded question - Unless Israel has secure borders and free from attack there will be no peace -
Is that difficult -
It is in the Roadmap -
 

earth_as_one

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Jan 5, 2006
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EAO
I will set saide my opinion that you are anti Jew -

But you and I will both stop posting lenghty diatribes about War Crimes commited by both Arab and Jew and Persian - Is that a fair agreement?
Need 2 to Tango -

You voted Unsure as to "Does Israel have the right to exist with secure borders free from attack"
I am interested in why? OK

I am against people who commit war crimes and crimes against humanity. IMO, so are a majority of Jews and Israelis. I have no ill will toward people who want to live in peace. I am also sensitive to the long suffering of Jews and strongly oppose racism and religious based persecution.

I would support a purely Jewish state where Jews could live free from persecution if it was done peacefully. I don't support committing war crimes or crimes against humanity in order to achieve this. I support achieving it in the way that is described in the Jewish holy books, not the way it was done or being done.

The amount of money that has been spent on illegally seizing control of this land by military force could have legally bought all the land Israel occupies many times over. Sure some people would refuse to sell, but this is a longterm problem. Sooner or later, the land would fall into the possession of someone who would sell.

Toss the war criminals out of power, offer the former inhabitants freedom, justice and compensation. If a few Palestinians want to return home, let them. I suspect that most of these people would rather start new lives elsewhere.

So yes I support a Jewish state in the holy lands, just not this one in its current form.
 

Colpy

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I am against people who commit war crimes and crimes against humanity. IMO, so are a majority of Jews and Israelis. I have no ill will toward people who want to live in peace. I am also sensitive to the long suffering of Jews and strongly oppose racism and religious based persecution.

I would support a purely Jewish state where Jews could live free from persecution if it was done peacefully. I don't support committing war crimes or crimes against humanity in order to achieve this. I support achieving it in the way that is described in the Jewish holy books, not the way it was done or being done.

The amount of money that has been spent on illegally seizing control of this land by military force could have legally bought all the land Israel occupies many times over. Sure some people would refuse to sell, but this is a longterm problem. Sooner or later, the land would fall into the possession of someone who would sell.

Toss the war criminals out of power, offer the former inhabitants freedom, justice and compensation. If a few Palestinians want to return home, let them. I suspect that most of these people would rather start new lives elsewhere.

So yes I support a Jewish state in the holy lands, just not this one in its current form.

Lovely, EAO, with just a couple of problems.....

First of all, why compensation for the 800,000 Arab refugees, but none for the 800,000 Jew expelled from Arabia? I think it kinda cancels itself out.....

Secondly, if the Jews in Israel don't approve of the actions of their gov't, why haven't they voted them out??? It is a democracy, you know.....with AraB votes as well, you'd think the "majority" that disapproves would be victorious.....except that it only exists in your imagination.The fact is the left in Israel has been hamstrung ever since Arafat spit in their faces and started the 2000 Intifada to protect his own theft of billions of dollars in aid to Palestine. No longer a force.
 

earth_as_one

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Lets give everyone in Israel and the occupied territories the right to vote and see how long the Zionist extremists stay in power.

I support compensating the 10% of Jews or so who were forced to immigrate to Israel. The 90% who sold their belongings and moved to Israel are immigrants, not refugees. The ratio appears to be about 8:1. Also, many Jewish refugees were compensated with property seized from Palestinians.

The deal Arafat was offered sounded good on paper, but closer examination revealed it was a rip off. If you'd like to exchange your house and move into a tent next to the town dump feel free, but don't don't criticize others for refusing to make a deal involving land of equal size but unequal value.

...In a formal document issued on Dec. 30 the Palestinian negotiating team expressed three major objections to the proposals made by Barak and President Clinton: Palestinians would be forced to give up the right of Palestinian refugees to return; Israel’s annexation of the settlement blocs—“recognized as illegal by the international community”—would deprive the Palestinian state of territorial contiguity; and Palestinian Jerusalem would be divided into a number of unconnected islands separate from each other and from the rest of Palestine. The Palestinians also complained that more than 80,000 Palestinian villagers would end up in areas annexed to Israel.


As for Clinton’s proposal that a parcel of land in Israel near Gaza be turned over to the Palestinians in compensation for parts of the West Bank that Israel would keep, the Palestinians pointed out that the land near Gaza was currently being used by Israel as a toxic waste dump. “Obviously, we cannot accept trading prime agricultural and development land for toxic waste dumps,” their statement said....


http://www.washington-report.org/archives/april01/0104006.html

Then the Israelis accused the Palestinians of being unreasonable and not wanting peace because they refused to accept Israeli toxic dumps (some containing drums of radioactive waste) in exchange for Palestinian farmland.
 
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Goober

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UNWRA has approx 4.7 million so called refugees -
The PLO want the right of return - Isreal would not accept that -
Isreal as of 2008 had a total population of 7.3 million -
Jews would become an instant minority -

Where do your numbers come from when you state the following - I
would appreciate a source for this ratio that you state.

I support compensating the 10% of Jews or so who were forced to immigrate to Israel. The 90% who sold their belongings and moved to Israel are immigrants, not refugees. The ratio appears to be about 8:1. Also, many Jewish refugees were compensated with property seized from Palestinians.

Isreal will want Gaza and the West Bank to be a DMZ - Your opinion on this is?
 

Colpy

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Lets give everyone in Israel and the occupied territories the right to vote and see how long the Zionist extremists stay in power.

I support compensating the 10% of Jews or so who were forced to immigrate to Israel. The 90% who sold their belongings and moved to Israel are immigrants, not refugees. The ratio appears to be about 8:1. Also, many Jewish refugees were compensated with property seized from Palestinians.

The deal Arafat was offered sounded good on paper, but closer examination revealed it was a rip off. If you'd like to exchange your house and move into a tent next to the town dump feel free, but don't don't criticize others for refusing to make a deal involving land of equal size but unequal value.



Then the Israelis accused the Palestinians of being unreasonable and not wanting peace because they refused to accept Israeli toxic dumps (some containing drums of radioactive waste) in exchange for Palestinian farmland.

The "occupied territories" are neither occupied, nor territories of Israel....Gee, do I get to vote in US elections??? :roll: You said
I am against people who commit war crimes and crimes against humanity. IMO, so are a majority of Jews and Israelis
So, why is the right winning elections in ISRAEL, even though 20% of the electorate is Arab????????? (which, btw, puts the lie to the old "Apartheit" BS)

The idea put forth by you that most Jews left Arabia with their property and without coercion is standing proof of your bias, and your inability to see this from anything faintly approaching a neutral position.......simply because that is BS. I put the question to you: if Jews were not coerced out of greater Arabia, why are there not still Jewish communities in the countries of greater Arabia, as there is in Persia (Iran) ??????

As for the deal offered to Arafat, it was a NATION, not perfect, but a wonderful starting point....much more than they will EVER get now. Full stop. And ARAFAT stole that nation from his own people, resting on their faith in him, calling on them to rise up in intifada, because he KNEW that in a Palestinian Nation he could no longer call all the shots, and his theft of hundreds of millions of dollars from the Palestinian people might have been discovered. Evil....such scum!!!!!!

In much the same way greater Arabia has refused to step up and truely help the Palestinians....because they'd rather have them impoverished, radicalized, at war, "occupied".....they make SUCH a lovely propaganda tool against Israel....a perpetually growing hammer witth which to bash Jews.
 

Goober

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Colpy

I made an offer to EAO for fair debate - Let us both see f we can adhere to it first and see how it goes from there - Your opinion is welcome and requested
 

earth_as_one

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The "occupied territories" are neither occupied, nor territories of Israel....Gee, do I get to vote in US elections??? :roll: You said So, why is the right winning elections in ISRAEL, even though 20% of the electorate is Arab????????? (which, btw, puts the lie to the old "Apartheit" BS)

The idea put forth by you that most Jews left Arabia with their property and without coercion is standing proof of your bias, and your inability to see this from anything faintly approaching a neutral position.......simply because that is BS. I put the question to you: if Jews were not coerced out of greater Arabia, why are there not still Jewish communities in the countries of greater Arabia, as there is in Persia (Iran) ??????

As for the deal offered to Arafat, it was a NATION, not perfect, but a wonderful starting point....much more than they will EVER get now. Full stop. And ARAFAT stole that nation from his own people, resting on their faith in him, calling on them to rise up in intifada, because he KNEW that in a Palestinian Nation he could no longer call all the shots, and his theft of hundreds of millions of dollars from the Palestinian people might have been discovered. Evil....such scum!!!!!!

In much the same way greater Arabia has refused to step up and truely help the Palestinians....because they'd rather have them impoverished, radicalized, at war, "occupied".....they make SUCH a lovely propaganda tool against Israel....a perpetually growing hammer witth which to bash Jews.

They did try to help them. Many times. Each time they got their arses kicked by Israel.

Religion is just a way that Israel differentiates between people who have full rights and people who have partial to no rights. Apartheid South Africa used skin color, but fundamentally religious based persecution is the same as race based persecution.

Apartheid South Africa also tried to wiggle out of their responsibility for their non-citizens by creating a series of Bantustans for their undesirables, just like Israel. The UN never accepted the Apartheid South African definition of a state any more than they recognized Israel's definition of a state. Until Palestine is a sovereign state, with self determination, they are militarily occupied by Israel.

In the meantime, since Israel seizes their land, blocks food and medicine from reaching them, controls their borders and currency, collects their taxes... that makes them Israel's responsibility. Even Israel knows they are responsible for their Palestinian non-citizens and they've tried repeatedly to hand responsibility over to other states. In fact Israel just tried to transfer their responsibility for Palestinians again recently:

King Abdullah: Jordan wants no part of West Bank
29/01/2010

King Abdullah of Jordan said Friday his country does not want to rule the West Bank and that the two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was the only viable option.

"Jordan does not want any part of the West Bank," the monarch said at the World Economic Forum in Davos.

"The only credible solution, is the two state solution. There is no Jordanian solution," he said.

According to Abdullah, if rule over the territory was transferred to the kingdom, it would only "replace Israeli military rule with Jordanian military rule... and the Palestinians want their own state."

The Jordanian leader met on Thursday with President Shimon Peres on the sidelines of the annual meeting in the Swiss mountain resort.

The meeting came days after Haaretz reported that ties between the Jordanian monarch and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu had been severed over the recent diplomatic tensions between the two states.

The meeting was cordial and the two leaders mainly addressed various possibilities for jumpstarting the frozen peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians, Peres' aides said afterward.

"The [standstill in the peace negotiations] could have regional ramifications," Abdullah told Peres, adding that he hopes the negotiations with the Palestinian Authority will resume soon, based on a mutual agreement for a two-state solution.

"There is a consensus among the Israeli people regarding a two-state solution," Peres told Abdullah. "Israel is willing to return to the negotiating table right away, and we must make great efforts to restart the peace process."

King Abdullah: Jordan wants no part of West Bank - Haaretz - Israel News

If Israel isn't responsible for the occupied Palestinian territories, then how are they able to offer parts of it to other nations????

Parts of what used to be a region known as Palestine is militarily occupied by Israel. the rest of it is Israel proper. The parts of Palestine under Israeli military occupation are under Israeli military rule and as a result, Israel is responsible for them. Its been that way since 1967. During that time, Israel has continuously cleansed parts of the what used to be Palestine of Palestinians, razed Palestinian property, transferred the land to Israel proper and built Jewish only colonies over the ruins. Its going on right now, while we have this online debate.

December 28, 2009 Israel plans settlement expansion


Israel housing ministry has approved plans to build almost 700 new apartments in three Jewish settlements in east Jerusalem.

Palestinian officials as well as the United States were quick to condemn Monday's move as incompatible with efforts to restart the stalled peace process.


Al Jazeera English - Middle East - Israel plans settlement expansion
I believe that all human beings have a right to freedom and justice. While Palestinians have neither, people who believe in fundamental human rights are obliged to stand up for their fellow human beings.

The majority of Jews who immigrated to Israel from Arab states consider themselves immigrants, not refugees. Israeli propaganda used to call them immigrants too. Its only recently that Israeli propaganda revised their narrative and started calling these people refugees, when its suits them. You should be old enough to remember Israel when used to call these people immigrants. The propaganda narrative only changed ten years ago..

You must have a short memory Colpy.

But don't take my word for it. Read what these people say about this new version of why and how they came to Israel.

From Haaretz, an Israeli news source
15/08/2003

Hitching a ride on the magic carpet
By Yehouda Shenhav

Any analogy between Palestinian refugees and Jewish immigrants from Arab lands is folly in historical and political terms


An intensive campaign to secure official political and legal recognition of Jews from Arab lands as refugees has been going on for the past three years. This campaign has tried to create an analogy between Palestinian refugees and Mizrahi Jews, whose origins are in Middle Eastern countries - depicting both groups as victims of the 1948 War of Independence. The campaign's proponents hope their efforts will prevent conferral of what is called a "right of return" on Palestinians, and reduce the size of the compensation Israel is liable to be asked to pay in exchange for Palestinian property appropriated by the state guardian of "lost" assets.

The idea of drawing this analogy constitutes a mistaken reading of history, imprudent politics, and moral injustice.

Bill Clinton launched the campaign in July 2000 in an interview with Israel's Channel One, in which he disclosed that an agreement to recognize Jews from Arab lands as refugees materialized at the Camp David summit. Ehud Barak then stepped up and enthusiastically expounded on his "achievement" in an interview with Dan Margalit.

Past Israeli governments had refrained from issuing declarations of this sort. First, there has been concern that any such proclamation will underscore what Israel has tried to repress and forget: the Palestinians' demand for return. Second, there has been anxiety that such a declaration would encourage property claims submitted by Jews against Arab states and, in response, Palestinian counter-claims to lost property. Third, such declarations would require Israel to update its schoolbooks and history, and devise a new narrative by which the Mizrahi Jews journeyed to the country under duress, without being fueled by Zionist aspirations. That would be a post-Zionist narrative.

At Camp David, Ehud Barak decided that the right of return issue was not really on the agenda, so he thought he had the liberty to indulge the Mizrahi analogy rhetorically. Characteristically, rather than really dealing with issues as a leader, in a fashion that might lead to mutual reconciliation, Barak acted like a shopkeeper.

This hot potato was cooked up for Barak and Clinton by Bobby Brown, prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu's adviser for Diaspora affairs, and his colleagues, along with delegates from organizations such as the World Jewish Congress and the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations.

WOJAC fails

A few months ago Dr. Avi Becker, secretary-general of the World Jewish Congress, and Malcolm Hoenlein, executive vice chairman of the Conference of Presidents, persuaded Prof. Irwin Cotler, a member of Canada's parliament and an expert on international law, to join their campaign. An article by Becker published a few weeks ago in the Hebrew edition of Haaretz (July 20), entitled "Respect for Jews from Arab lands," constituted one step in this public campaign. The article said little about respect for Mizrahi Jews. On the contrary - it trampled their dignity.

The campaign's results thus far are meager. Its umbrella organization, Justice for Jews From Arab Countries, has not inspired much enthusiasm in Israel, or among Jews overseas. It has yet to extract a single noteworthy declaration from any major Israeli politician. This comes as no surprise: The campaign has a forlorn history whose details are worth revisiting. Sometimes recounting history has a very practical effect.

The World Organization of Jews from Arab Countries (WOJAC) was founded in the 1970s. Yigal Allon, then foreign minister, worried that WOJAC would become a hotbed of what he called "ethnic mobilization." But WOJAC was not formed to assist Mizrahi Jews; it was invented as a deterrent to block claims harbored by the Palestinian national movement, particularly claims related to compensation and the right of return.

At first glance, the use of the term "refugees" for Mizrahi Jews was not unreasonable. After all, the word had occupied a central place in historical and international legal discourses after World War II. United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 from 1967 referred to a just solution to "the problem of refugees in the Middle East." In the 1970s, Arab countries tried to fine-tune the resolution's language so that it would refer to "Arab refugees in the Middle East," but the U.S. government, under the direction of ambassador to the UN Arthur Goldberg, opposed this revision. A working paper prepared in 1977 by Cyrus Vance, then U.S. secretary of state, ahead of scheduled international meetings in Geneva, alluded to the search for a solution to the "problem of refugees," without specifying the identities of those refugees. Israel lobbied for this formulation. WOJAC, which tried to introduce use of the concept "Jewish refugees," failed.

The Arabs were not the only ones to object to the phrase. Many Zionist Jews from around the world opposed WOJAC's initiative. Organizers of the current campaign would be wise to study the history of WOJAC, an organization which transmogrified over its years of activity from a Zionist to a post-Zionist entity. It is a tale of unexpected results arising from political activity.

`We are not refugees'

The WOJAC figure who came up with the idea of "Jewish refugees" was Yaakov Meron, head of the Justice Ministry's Arab legal affairs department. Meron propounded the most radical thesis ever devised concerning the history of Jews in Arab lands. He claimed Jews were expelled from Arab countries under policies enacted in concert with Palestinian leaders - and he termed these policies "ethnic cleansing." Vehemently opposing the dramatic Zionist narrative, Meron claimed that Zionism had relied on romantic, borrowed phrases ("Magic Carpet," "Operation Ezra and Nehemiah") in the description of Mizrahi immigration waves to conceal the "fact" that Jewish migration was the result of "Arab expulsion policy." In a bid to complete the analogy drawn between Palestinians and Mizrahi Jews, WOJAC publicists claimed that the Mizrahi immigrants lived in refugee camps in Israel during the 1950s (i.e., ma'abarot or transit camps), just like the Palestinian refugees.

The organization's claims infuriated many Mizrahi Israelis who defined themselves as Zionists. As early as 1975, at the time of WOJAC's formation, Knesset speaker Yisrael Yeshayahu declared: "We are not refugees. [Some of us] came to this country before the state was born. We had messianic aspirations."

Shlomo Hillel, a government minister and an active Zionist in Iraq, adamantly opposed the analogy: "I don't regard the departure of Jews from Arab lands as that of refugees. They came here because they wanted to, as Zionists."

In a Knesset hearing, Ran Cohen stated emphatically: "I have this to say: I am not a refugee." He added: "I came at the behest of Zionism, due to the pull that this land exerts, and due to the idea of redemption. Nobody is going to define me as a refugee."

The opposition was so vociferous that Ora Schweitzer, chair of WOJAC's political department, asked the organization's secretariat to end its campaign. She reported that members of Strasburg's Jewish community were so offended that they threatened to boycott organization meetings should the topic of "Sephardi Jews as refugees" ever come up again. Such remonstration precisely predicted the failure of the current organization, Justice for Jews from Arab Countries to inspire enthusiasm for its efforts.

Also alarmed by WOJAC's stridency, the Foreign Ministry proposed that the organization bring its campaign to a halt on the grounds that the description of Mizrahi Jews as refugees was a double-edged sword. Israel, ministry officials pointed out, had always adopted a stance of ambiguity on the complex issue raised by WOJAC. In 1949, Israel even rejected a British-Iraqi proposal for population exchange - Iraqi Jews for Palestinian refugees - due to concerns that it would subsequently be asked to settle "surplus refugees" within its own borders.

The foreign minister deemed WOJAC a Phalangist, zealous group, and asked that it cease operating as a "state within a state." In the end, the ministry closed the tap on the modest flow of funds it had transferred to WOJAC. Then justice minister Yossi Beilin fired Yaakov Meron from the Arab legal affairs department. Today, no serious researcher in Israel or overseas embraces WOJAC's extreme claims.

Moreover, WOJAC, which intended to promote Zionist claims and assist Israel in its conflict with Palestinian nationalism, accomplished the opposite: It presented a confused Zionist position regarding the dispute with the Palestinians, and infuriated many Mizrahi Jews around the world by casting them as victims bereft of positive motivation to immigrate to Israel. WOJAC subordinated the interests of Mizrahi Jews (particularly with regard to Jewish property in Arab lands) to what it erroneously defined as Israeli national interests. The organization failed to grasp that defining Mizrahi Jews as refugees opens a Pandora's box and ultimately harms all parties to the dispute, Jews and Arabs alike.

Lessons not learned
The World Jewish Congress and other Jewish rganizations learned nothing from this woeful legacy. Hungry for a magic solution to the refugee question, they have adopted
the refugee analogy and are lobbying for it all over the world. It would be interesting to hear the education minister's reaction to the historical narrative presented nowadays by these Jewish organizations. Should Limor Livnat establish a committee of ministry experts to revise school textbooks in accordance with this new post-Zionist genre?

Any reasonable person, Zionist or non-Zionist, must acknowledge that the analogy drawn between Palestinians and Mizrahi Jews is unfounded. Palestinian refugees did not want to leave Palestine. Many Palestinian communities were destroyed in 1948, and some 700,000 Palestinians were expelled, or fled, from the borders of historic Palestine. Those who left did not do so of their own volition.

In contrast, Jews from Arab lands came to this country under the initiative of the State of Israel and Jewish organizations. Some came of their own free will; others arrived against their will. Some lived comfortably and securely in Arab lands; others suffered from fear and oppression.

The history of the "Mizrahi aliyah" (immigration to Israel) is complex, and cannot be subsumed within a facile explanation. Many of the newcomers lost considerable property, and there can be no question that they should be allowed to submit individual property claims against Arab states (up to the present day, the State of Israel and WOJAC have blocked the submission of claims on this basis).

The unfounded, immoral analogy between Palestinian refugees and Mizrahi immigrants needlessly embroils members of these two groups in a dispute, degrades the dignity of many Mizrahi Jews, and harms prospects for genuine Jewish-Arab reconciliation.

Jewish anxieties about discussing the question of 1948 are understandable. But this question will be addressed in the future, and it is clear that any peace agreement will
have to contain a solution to the refugee problem. It's reasonable to assume that as final status agreements between Israelis and Palestinians are reached, an international fund will be formed with the aim of compensating Palestinian refugees for the hardships
caused them by the establishment of the State of Israel. Israel will surely be asked to contribute generously to such a fund.

In this connection, the idea of reducing compensation obligations by designating Mizrahi immigrants as refugees might become very tempting. But it is wrong to use scarecrows to chase away politically and morally valid claims advanced by Palestinians. The "creative accounting" manipulation concocted by the refugee analogy only adds insult to injury, and widens the psychological gap between Jews and Palestinians. Palestinians might abandon hopes of redeeming a right of return (as, for example, Palestinian pollster Dr. Khalil Shikai claims); but this is not a result to be adduced via creative accounting.

Any peace agreement must be validated by Israeli recognition of past wrongs and suffering, and the forging of a just solution. The creative accounts proposed by the
refugee analogy turns Israel into a morally and politically spineless bookkeeper.


Yehouda Shenhav is a professor at Tel Aviv University and the editor of Theory Criticism, an Israeli journal in the area of critical theory and cultural studies



http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=329736
 
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Goober

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I will set saide my opinion that you are anti Jew -
But you and I will both stop posting lenghty diatribes about War Crimes commited by both Arab and Jew and Persian - Is that a fair agreement? Need 2 to Tango -

You voted Unsure as to "Does Israel have the right to exist with secure borders free from attack"

I am interested in why? OK

Where did you get these numbers of 10 % of Jews deported - the 8 to 1 Ratio?

Your quote:
I support compensating the 10% of Jews or so who were forced to immigrate to Israel. The 90% who sold their belongings and moved to Israel are immigrants, not refugees. The ratio appears to be about 8:1. Also, many Jewish refugees were compensated with property seized from Palestinians.
 

MHz

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The "occupied territories" are neither occupied, nor territories of Israel....Gee, do I get to vote in US elections??? :roll: You said So, why is the right winning elections in ISRAEL, even though 20% of the electorate is Arab????????? (which, btw, puts the lie to the old "Apartheit" BS)
This isn't mean specifically meant for you Colpy it just made me think of this question.

Gaza has never really had freedom to all (any) her finances, that was controlled by Israel and the US (and perhaps the UN but they would have been doing what the US wanted), how did Arafat manage to spirit away billions and once the theft was made known to the people of Gaza why could they not get the money back from his widow?

Is a sea (international waters) blockade a war-crime? Israel has acknowledged Gaza has borders. The sea-lanes lead to/from international waters.
 

earth_as_one

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Sure it came from here:

From 1948-1949, the Israeli government secretly airlifted 50,000 Jews from the Yemen and from 1950–1952, 130,000 Jews were airlifted from Iraq. From 1949-1951, 30,000 Jews fled Libya to Israel. In these cases over 90% of the Jewish population opted to leave, despite the necessity of leaving their property behind.[13]

Jewish exodus from Arab lands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Maybe that's not entirely accurate regarding after that period, but as you can see from my previous post, most Arab Jews don't consider themselves refugees. So its likely accurate. Regardless, that's issue is the responsibility of the countries which treated their Jewish citizens illegally, not the responsibility of Palestinians.

Unlike you and Colpy, I don't see this as black and white, but many shades of gray. It doesn't make sense that 100% of Jews who immigrated to Israel from Arab/Muslim countries were refugees. Some of them had to be motivated by the same reasons why hundreds of thousands of Jews also immigrated to Israel from non-Arab/Muslim countries. Unless you are saying that every Jew who immigrated to Israel from Canada, the United States, India, Japan, Africa.... were also refugees. Obviously if persecution and forced deportation were the only reason why Jews immigrate to Israel, then none would have left all these other countries were Jews weren't persecuted.

No doubt, some Jews do qualify as refugees. Certainly all the Jews fleeing Nazi persecution in Europe qualify as refugees. But the Europeans and the West compensated these refugees by awarding them most of Palestine.

If you think that's fair, then why don't you pay my Visa bill.

Its the same principle. One person incurs a debt and another is forced to pay it. Essentially that's how Europeans and their West paid their debt to Jewish refugees... by making Palestinians pay for it by awarding the European Jewish refugees most of Palestine. How nice for the Europeans and the Jewish refugees, but that solution sucks if you are Palestinian stuck with paying the European debt.

Anyway, cut to the chase, I completely support the right of Jews who were treated illegally and turned into refugees to sue those responsible for damages for the same reason why I support the right of Palestinians who were treated illegally and turned into refugees to sue those responsible for damages.
 
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Colpy

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This isn't mean specifically meant for you Colpy it just made me think of this question.

Gaza has never really had freedom to all (any) her finances, that was controlled by Israel and the US (and perhaps the UN but they would have been doing what the US wanted), how did Arafat manage to spirit away billions and once the theft was made known to the people of Gaza why could they not get the money back from his widow?

Is a sea (international waters) blockade a war-crime? Israel has acknowledged Gaza has borders. The sea-lanes lead to/from international waters.

Gaza is the smaller part of what was known as the Palestinian Authority.....and was always the poorer.

Arafat's Billions - 60 Minutes - CBS News

The American Center for Democracy / Center for the Study of Corruption: Mission Statement

Yassir Arafat

As for international law....it is a farce. No nation on earth would allow a hostile opponent to import arms if they could easily prevent it, and Israel can......

And the opposition to Israel needs to make up its mind: is Gaza occupied territory, completely under Israeli control?? According to the anti-Israelis YES, when they are talking about the living conditions, but NO, Gaza and the West Bank are an independent entity when we discuss border control.......I know its tough, there is not, and has never been a situation the equivalent of that in the ME.....that I know of, anyway.
 

Colpy

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Lets give everyone in Israel and the occupied territories the right to vote and see how long the Zionist extremists stay in power.

I support compensating the 10% of Jews or so who were forced to immigrate to Israel. The 90% who sold their belongings and moved to Israel are immigrants, not refugees. The ratio appears to be about 8:1. Also, many Jewish refugees were compensated with property seized from Palestinians.

The deal Arafat was offered sounded good on paper, but closer examination revealed it was a rip off. If you'd like to exchange your house and move into a tent next to the town dump feel free, but don't don't criticize others for refusing to make a deal involving land of equal size but unequal value.



Then the Israelis accused the Palestinians of being unreasonable and not wanting peace because they refused to accept Israeli toxic dumps (some containing drums of radioactive waste) in exchange for Palestinian farmland.

The occupied territories are NOT, by definition of your own words, part of Israel.....

I highlighted the phrase.....one second they aren't refugees, the next they are....of COURSE they are. If not forced to move, there would be healthy Jewish minorities in all the surrounding Arab states....THAT is the fact.....and your article never ONCE challenged the view that Jews were thrown out of Arab states....not once......just that they chose Israel to go to. The word "refugee" does have a negative aspect to any with pride (excepting the Palestinians, of course).

Arafat did NOT start the intifada because the deal was bad, he started it because he couldn't get off the gravy train. Full stop.
 

darkbeaver

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Jan 26, 2006
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The biggest of all of Zionism’s propaganda lies is the one which asserts that Israel has lived in constant danger of annihilation, the “driving into the sea” of its Jews. As I document in detail in my book, Israel’s existence has never, ever, been in danger from any combination of Arab force. Not in 1948. Not in 1967. And not even in 1973. Zionism’s assertion to the contrary was the cover which allowed Israel to get away where it mattered most, in North America and Western Europe, with presenting its aggression (often state terrorism) as self-defense, and itself as the victim when actually it was, and is, the oppressor.
The companion propaganda lie is that Israel never had Arab partners for peace.
Zionism has two hallmarks.
One is self-righteousness of a most extraordinary kind. In 1986 this self-righteousness was described by Yehoshafat Harkabi, a former Director of Israeli Military Intelligence, as “the biggest real danger” to the Jewish state.
The other hallmark is a shocking and awesome arrogance of military and economic power and the influence the latter buys, most critically in the U.S. Congress where what passes for democracy is for sale to the highest bidders.
On the matter of truth as it relates to the making and sustaining of conflict in and over Palestine that became Israel, I hope the German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860) is right: “All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.” If that’s true, Zionism not only can be defeated but will be.
Dissident Voice : Zionism Unmasked: A Fairy Tale That’s Become a Terrifying Nightmare

DB One day the israeli people will have a peaceful homeland called Palestine.DB
 

earth_as_one

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The occupied territories are NOT, by definition of your own words, part of Israel.....

I highlighted the phrase.....one second they aren't refugees, the next they are....of COURSE they are. If not forced to move, there would be healthy Jewish minorities in all the surrounding Arab states....THAT is the fact.....and your article never ONCE challenged the view that Jews were thrown out of Arab states....not once......just that they chose Israel to go to. The word "refugee" does have a negative aspect to any with pride (excepting the Palestinians, of course).

Arafat did NOT start the intifada because the deal was bad, he started it because he couldn't get off the gravy train. Full stop.

You obviously didn't read my last two posts. Some Jewish immigrants to Israel are refugees, but most aren't. This issue isn't as black and white as you believe.

Here I'll post the link again for your benefit:

We Are Not Refugees!
Hitching a ride on the magic carpet - Haaretz - Israel News
 
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MHz

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As for international law....it is a farce. No nation on earth would allow a hostile opponent to import arms if they could easily prevent it, and Israel can......

And the opposition to Israel needs to make up its mind: is Gaza occupied territory, completely under Israeli control?? According to the anti-Israelis YES, when they are talking about the living conditions, but NO, Gaza and the West Bank are an independent entity when we discuss border control.......I know its tough, there is not, and has never been a situation the equivalent of that in the ME.....that I know of, anyway.
Anytime there is something called a veto of course it is a farce. There is nothing wrong (what constitutes a crime) with the list itself , it is in the lack of enforceability. If the US and Israel can do whatever they want, with no accountability, then why should the rest of the world be expected to 'obey the list' of things called war-crimes or crimes against humanity? The really terrible thing about that is the ones who do just about all the complaining about what other countries are (not) doing is the same two who have the largest list of crime, by far.

Colpy look up all the history where the minority ruled the majority through violence. How about Britain, the Kings never had a problem of sending the sword into the Peasants if they started murmuring about how they were being treated.

With some people the more you give them the more they want, that needs to be treated as a disease not catered to when their want means the death of many that do not deserve it.

Biblically speaking God is probably going to utterly destroy any Nation that had part in putting 'His people' into more danger than where He had left them.
Would you call that 'poetic justice' or just poor foresight on the part of the 33 Nations? Not one person left alive just for that one act.
You can't arm a people to the teeth with weapons, when they have had blinders put on by God, and expect peace and tranquility. Who cares, shares from the war companies are up.
I doubt anybody from Gaza or the West Bank or the refugee camps would shed a tear over our bloody demise. (33 countries actually)

How many Muslims encounter racial tension in America after 911?

Do you have some examples that predate Nov of 1947?
 
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