Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Does Israel have the right to exist with secure borders free from attack


  • Total voters
    42

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
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You can answer for Colpy if you are a little bored.

Do you think Gaza's citizens deserve to be protected from unwarranted attacks from space when they are denied the weapons to (successfully) defend themselves? If they had surgical rubber and bb's they would still complain.

Perhaps he has a life, you have me, an elderly washed up ditch-digger with a taste for confrontational topics. How do you like me so far?

If you would like we could to do Yiddish insults/posts, most BBS places don't have filters for that language, or so I have heard. What is the copy & paste thing, that would have to be done one time for each post.

How about those two new American bases in the Carribean, no chatter anywhere about them. Eaglesmack is even willing to adopt Haitian orphans to keep that thread off the 'top 20'. Can you imagine the amount of supplies that could have been re-routed during that operation of aid for Haiti. Southcom just happened to have all the planes and fuel tanks loaded for a training mission at that very spot. Damn these guys don't care who knoes what lol

So sup?
 

earth_as_one

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Jan 5, 2006
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People should be equals. That's not the case in the Israeli territories. People in Israel proper have some to full rights. The people in Israel's colonies and concentration camps have either full or no rights.

Yes Israel is a legitimate state. But what's going on isn't right. I applaud Justice Goldstone and his team for raising awareness and fighting injustice and oppression.

United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict

Report of the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict (PDF)



EAO


I will set saide my opinion that you are anti Jew -
But you and I will both stop posting lenghty diatribes about War Crimes commited by both Arab and Jew and Persian - Is that a fair agreement? Need 2 to Tango -

You voted Unsure as to "Does Israel have the right to exist with secure borders free from attack"

I am interested in why? OK

Where did you get these numbers of 10 % of Jews deported - the 8 to 1 Ratio?

Your quote:
I support compensating the 10% of Jews or so who were forced to immigrate to Israel. The 90% who sold their belongings and moved to Israel are immigrants, not refugees. The ratio appears to be about 8:1. Also, many Jewish refugees were compensated with property seized from Palestinians.


Sure it came from here:

Maybe that's not entirely accurate regarding after that period, but as you can see from my previous post, most Arab Jews don't consider themselves refugees. So its likely accurate. Regardless, that's issue is the responsibility of the countries which treated their Jewish citizens illegally, not the responsibility of Palestinians.

Unlike you and Colpy, I don't see this as black and white, but many shades of gray. It doesn't make sense that 100% of Jews who immigrated to Israel from Arab/Muslim countries were refugees. Some of them had to be motivated by the same reasons why hundreds of thousands of Jews also immigrated to Israel from non-Arab/Muslim countries. Unless you are saying that every Jew who immigrated to Israel from Canada, the United States, India, Japan, Africa.... were also refugees. Obviously if persecution and forced deportation were the only reason why Jews immigrate to Israel, then none would have left all these other countries were Jews weren't persecuted.

No doubt, some Jews do qualify as refugees. Certainly all the Jews fleeing Nazi persecution in Europe qualify as refugees. But the Europeans and the West compensated these refugees by awarding them most of Palestine.

If you think that's fair, then why don't you pay my Visa bill.

Its the same principle. One person incurs a debt and another is forced to pay it. Essentially that's how Europeans and their West paid their debt to Jewish refugees... by making Palestinians pay for it by awarding the European Jewish refugees most of Palestine. How nice for the Europeans and the Jewish refugees, but that solution sucks if you are Palestinian stuck with paying the European debt.

Anyway, cut to the chase, I completely support the right of Jews who were treated illegally and turned into refugees to sue those responsible for damages for the same reason why I support the right of Palestinians who were treated illegally and turned into refugees to sue those responsible for damages.

Quote:
From 1948-1949, the Israeli government secretly airlifted 50,000 Jews from the Yemen and from 1950–1952, 130,000 Jews were airlifted from Iraq. From 1949-1951, 30,000 Jews fled Libya to Israel. In these cases over 90% of the Jewish population opted to leave, despite the necessity of leaving their property behind.[13]

Jewish exodus from Arab lands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

100%-90%=10%
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
The one and only way Israel could ever be considered legal is if the Palestinians abandon their rightful claim to Palestine. Now you know why Israel must crush resistance to fulfill that Israeli desire. Wikidpedia is a Zionist propaganda organ.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
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RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]The move in the Conservative Party has also pulled the Liberal Party a significant distance from the principles of Pierre Trudeau, leaving only the New Democrats and the Bloc Québécois to uphold international law. Indeed, the first turns in policy came under the previous Liberal government, ironically with human rights stalwarts in its ranks like Irwin Cotler and Liberal leader Michael Ignatieff, who, in 2006, suggested correctly that Israel’s shelling of the UN post at Qana in southern Lebanon (in which a Canadian officer was killed) was a war crime.

Ignatieff was criticised so strongly for his remark that he ended up apologising for it, and last May he commented on the Conservative bid for Jewish votes: "It is beyond reckless for political leaders to try to score points by branding one another as 'anti-Israel’ — to try to win votes by claiming a monopoly on supporting Israel. My party will never claim to be the only genuine defenders of Israel in Canadian politics because I don’t want my party to be alone in the defence of Israel. I want all parties to be genuine defenders of Israel."

Yet why would anyone want to defend another country so uncritically, let alone one that had killed a Canadian soldier? How did these sincere defenders of human rights allow themselves an Israeli exception?
[/FONT]Canada’s pandering to Israel :: www.uruknet.info :: informazione dal medio oriente :: information from middle east :: [vs-1]

DB Why do all our spineless politicians shamelessly support the murdering nest of squatters? Because they aren't our politicians.DB
 

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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EAO

Still no answers -
I recall you complaining about a rational discussion - So let me know if you intend to answer these questions please.

You voted Unsure as to "Does Israel have the right to exist with secure borders free from attack"
I am interested in why?

OK Where did you get these numbers of 10 Jews deported - the 8 to 1 Ratio?

Your words:

I support compensating the 10% of Jews or so who were forced to immigrate to Israel. The 90% who sold their belongings and moved to Israel are immigrants, not refugees. The ratio appears to be about 8:1. Also, many Jewish refugees were compensated with property seized from Palestinians.
 

earth_as_one

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Jan 5, 2006
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Gee Goober, I guess I'll have to do the math for you.

If one million Jews immigrated from Arab/Muslim countries after 1948 and only 10% of them are refugees, that makes 100,000 Jewish refugees. Meanwhile Israel created 800,000 Arab refugees in 1947-48. They created a bunch more in 1967.

800,000:100,000 = 8:1

I assumed the math was straight forward.

Also Israel has a right to exist as a state. The people without rights who live under military occupation in Israel's territories have a right to violently resist oppression and injustice as per the International law. The Israeli military also has a obligation to defend all civilians, not just Jewish ones or the Arab one with partial rights. They are also responsible for the safety of civilians under their military occupation. They do not have the right to commit war crimes or crimes against humanity.

BTW, I disagree with the violent means by both sides, even if its legal. An eye for an eye make both sides blind.

Zionists created this situation and eventually it will be their downfall. As the world gets smaller, their crimes become harder to hide and their propaganda becomes less effective.

Also I don't agree to stop posting references to Israeli war crimes. When appropriate, I'll reference them. If you try to smear me with the anti-Semiticism label, I'll post some more references to them. People who support Israel have a right to know what they support.
 

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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Gee EAO -

You do not have any legitimate references to support your math -
Math is a science - exacting - Not numbers you pull out of the air

You voted unsure as to Israel having that right - now you changed your mind - Why - because it was not defendable.

Zionist created this situation - Israel declared Independence and were promptly attacked and War was declared - Israel Won

ISRAEL

1949–1967Before the adoption by the United Nations of Resolution 181 in November 1947 and the declaration of the State of Israel in May 1948, several Arab countries adopted discriminatory measures against their local Jewish populations.[22][23] There were riots in Yemen and Syria. In Libya, Jews were deprived of citizenship, and in Iraq, their property was seized.[24] As a result, a large number of Jews were forced to emigrate from Arab lands, although many also emigrated for ideological reasons.[25] Over 700,000 Jews emigrated to Israel between 1948 and 1952, with approximately 285,000 of them from Arab countries.[26][25] Overall, about 850,000 Jews had left the Arab World by the early 1970s (according to official Arab documentation), with many of them leaving their property behind.[27] Today, these displaced Jews and their descendants represent 41% of the total population of Israel. For details, see Jewish exodus from Arab lands.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Gee EAO -

You do not have any legitimate references to support your math -
Math is a science - exacting - Not numbers you pull out of the air

You voted unsure as to Israel having that right - now you changed your mind - Why - because it was not defendable.

Zionist created this situation - Israel declared Independence and were promptly attacked and War was declared - Israel Won

ISRAEL

1949–1967Before the adoption by the United Nations of Resolution 181 in November 1947 and the declaration of the State of Israel in May 1948, several Arab countries adopted discriminatory measures against their local Jewish populations.[22][23] There were riots in Yemen and Syria. In Libya, Jews were deprived of citizenship, and in Iraq, their property was seized.[24] As a result, a large number of Jews were forced to emigrate from Arab lands, although many also emigrated for ideological reasons.[25] Over 700,000 Jews emigrated to Israel between 1948 and 1952, with approximately 285,000 of them from Arab countries.[26][25] Overall, about 850,000 Jews had left the Arab World by the early 1970s (according to official Arab documentation), with many of them leaving their property behind.[27] Today, these displaced Jews and their descendants represent 41% of the total population of Israel. For details, see Jewish exodus from Arab lands.

How many times do I have to quote these Israeli immigrants before you start to absorb their viewpoint?

Most of these people themselves never claimed to be refugees. At the time they arrived, Israel never claimed most of these people were refugees either.

The Israeli propaganda narrative which now calls these people refugees only changed about 10 years ago. Before that pretty much everyone referred to these people as immigrants.

But one more time for the record. In their own words:


WE ARE NOT REFUGEES!
Iraqi Jews arrive in Israel, 1949:"We are not refugees."
(Courtesy of the Babylonian Jewish Heritage Center)

Hitching a ride on the magic carpet
By Yehouda Shenhav


Any analogy between Palestinian refugees and Jewish immigrants from Arab lands is folly in historical and political terms

An intensive campaign to secure official political and legal recognition of Jews from Arab lands as refugees has been going on for the past three years. This campaign has tried to create an analogy between Palestinian refugees and Mizrahi Jews, whose origins are in Middle Eastern countries - depicting both groups as victims of the 1948 War of Independence. The campaign's proponents hope their efforts will prevent conferral of what is called a "right of return" on Palestinians, and reduce the size of the compensation Israel is liable to be asked to pay in exchange for Palestinian property appropriated by the state guardian of "lost" assets.

The idea of drawing this analogy constitutes a mistaken reading of history, imprudent politics, and moral injustice.

Bill Clinton launched the campaign in July 2000 in an interview with Israel's Channel One, in which he disclosed that an agreement to recognize Jews from Arab lands as refugees materialized at the Camp David summit. Ehud Barak then stepped up and enthusiastically expounded on his "achievement" in an interview with Dan Margalit.

Past Israeli governments had refrained from issuing declarations of this sort. First, there has been concern that any such proclamation will underscore what Israel has tried to repress and forget: the Palestinians' demand for return. Second, there has been anxiety that such a declaration would encourage property claims submitted by Jews against Arab states and, in response, Palestinian counter-claims to lost property. Third, such declarations would require Israel to update its schoolbooks and history, and devise a new narrative by which the Mizrahi Jews journeyed to the country under duress, without being fueled by Zionist aspirations. That would be a post-Zionist narrative.

At Camp David, Ehud Barak decided that the right of return issue was not really on the agenda, so he thought he had the liberty to indulge the Mizrahi analogy rhetorically. Characteristically, rather than really dealing with issues as a leader, in a fashion that might lead to mutual reconciliation, Barak acted like a shopkeeper.

This hot potato was cooked up for Barak and Clinton by Bobby Brown, prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu's adviser for Diaspora affairs, and his colleagues, along with delegates from organizations such as the World Jewish Congress and the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations.

WOJAC fails

A few months ago Dr. Avi Becker, secretary-general of the World Jewish Congress, and Malcolm Hoenlein, executive vice chairman of the Conference of Presidents, persuaded Prof. Irwin Cotler, a member of Canada's parliament and an expert on international law, to join their campaign. An article by Becker published a few weeks ago in the Hebrew edition of Haaretz (July 20), entitled "Respect for Jews from Arab lands," constituted one step in this public campaign. The article said little about respect for Mizrahi Jews. On the contrary - it trampled their dignity.

The campaign's results thus far are meager. Its umbrella organization, Justice for Jews From Arab Countries, has not inspired much enthusiasm in Israel, or among Jews overseas. It has yet to extract a single noteworthy declaration from any major Israeli politician. This comes as no surprise: The campaign has a forlorn history whose details are worth revisiting. Sometimes recounting history has a very practical effect.

The World Organization of Jews from Arab Countries (WOJAC) was founded in the 1970s. Yigal Allon, then foreign minister, worried that WOJAC would become a hotbed of what he called "ethnic mobilization." But WOJAC was not formed to assist Mizrahi Jews; it was invented as a deterrent to block claims harbored by the Palestinian national movement, particularly claims related to compensation and the right of return.

At first glance, the use of the term "refugees" for Mizrahi Jews was not unreasonable. After all, the word had occupied a central place in historical and international legal discourses after World War II. United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 from 1967 referred to a just solution to "the problem of refugees in the Middle East." In the 1970s, Arab countries tried to fine-tune the resolution's language so that it would refer to "Arab refugees in the Middle East," but the U.S. government, under the direction of ambassador to the UN Arthur Goldberg, opposed this revision. A working paper prepared in 1977 by Cyrus Vance, then U.S. secretary of state, ahead of scheduled international meetings in Geneva, alluded to the search for a solution to the "problem of refugees," without specifying the identities of those refugees. Israel lobbied for this formulation. WOJAC, which tried to introduce use of the concept "Jewish refugees," failed.

The Arabs were not the only ones to object to the phrase. Many Zionist Jews from around the world opposed WOJAC's initiative. Organizers of the current campaign would be wise to study the history of WOJAC, an organization which transmogrified over its years of activity from a Zionist to a post-Zionist entity. It is a tale of unexpected results arising from political activity.

`We are not refugees'

The WOJAC figure who came up with the idea of "Jewish refugees" was Yaakov Meron, head of the Justice Ministry's Arab legal affairs department. Meron propounded the most radical thesis ever devised concerning the history of Jews in Arab lands. He claimed Jews were expelled from Arab countries under policies enacted in concert with Palestinian leaders - and he termed these policies "ethnic cleansing." Vehemently opposing the dramatic Zionist narrative, Meron claimed that Zionism had relied on romantic, borrowed phrases ("Magic Carpet," "Operation Ezra and Nehemiah") in the description of Mizrahi immigration waves to conceal the "fact" that Jewish migration was the result of "Arab expulsion policy." In a bid to complete the analogy drawn between Palestinians and Mizrahi Jews, WOJAC publicists claimed that the Mizrahi immigrants lived in refugee camps in Israel during the 1950s (i.e., ma'abarot or transit camps), just like the Palestinian refugees.

The organization's claims infuriated many Mizrahi Israelis who defined themselves as Zionists. As early as 1975, at the time of WOJAC's formation, Knesset speaker Yisrael Yeshayahu declared: "We are not refugees. [Some of us] came to this country before the state was born. We had messianic aspirations."

Shlomo Hillel, a government minister and an active Zionist in Iraq, adamantly opposed the analogy: "I don't regard the departure of Jews from Arab lands as that of refugees. They came here because they wanted to, as Zionists."

In a Knesset hearing, Ran Cohen stated emphatically: "I have this to say: I am not a refugee." He added: "I came at the behest of Zionism, due to the pull that this land exerts, and due to the idea of redemption. Nobody is going to define me as a refugee."

The opposition was so vociferous that Ora Schweitzer, chair of WOJAC's political department, asked the organization's secretariat to end its campaign. She reported that members of Strasburg's Jewish community were so offended that they threatened to boycott organization meetings should the topic of "Sephardi Jews as refugees" ever come up again. Such remonstration precisely predicted the failure of the current organization, Justice for Jews from Arab Countries to inspire enthusiasm for its efforts.

Also alarmed by WOJAC's stridency, the Foreign Ministry proposed that the organization bring its campaign to a halt on the grounds that the description of Mizrahi Jews as refugees was a double-edged sword. Israel, ministry officials pointed out, had always adopted a stance of ambiguity on the complex issue raised by WOJAC. In 1949, Israel even rejected a British-Iraqi proposal for population exchange - Iraqi Jews for Palestinian refugees - due to concerns that it would subsequently be asked to settle "surplus refugees" within its own borders.

The foreign minister deemed WOJAC a Phalangist, zealous group, and asked that it cease operating as a "state within a state." In the end, the ministry closed the tap on the modest flow of funds it had transferred to WOJAC. Then justice minister Yossi Beilin fired Yaakov Meron from the Arab legal affairs department. Today, no serious researcher in Israel or overseas embraces WOJAC's extreme claims.

Moreover, WOJAC, which intended to promote Zionist claims and assist Israel in its conflict with Palestinian nationalism, accomplished the opposite: It presented a confused Zionist position regarding the dispute with the Palestinians, and infuriated many Mizrahi Jews around the world by casting them as victims bereft of positive motivation to immigrate to Israel. WOJAC subordinated the interests of Mizrahi Jews (particularly with regard to Jewish property in Arab lands) to what it erroneously defined as Israeli national interests. The organization failed to grasp that defining Mizrahi Jews as refugees opens a Pandora's box and ultimately harms all parties to the dispute, Jews and Arabs alike.

Lessons not learned
The World Jewish Congress and other Jewish rganizations learned nothing from this woeful legacy. Hungry for a magic solution to the refugee question, they have adopted
the refugee analogy and are lobbying for it all over the world. It would be interesting to hear the education minister's reaction to the historical narrative presented nowadays by these Jewish organizations. Should Limor Livnat establish a committee of ministry experts to revise school textbooks in accordance with this new post-Zionist genre?

Any reasonable person, Zionist or non-Zionist, must acknowledge that the analogy drawn between Palestinians and Mizrahi Jews is unfounded. Palestinian refugees did not want to leave Palestine. Many Palestinian communities were destroyed in 1948, and some 700,000 Palestinians were expelled, or fled, from the borders of historic Palestine. Those who left did not do so of their own volition.

In contrast, Jews from Arab lands came to this country under the initiative of the State of Israel and Jewish organizations. Some came of their own free will; others arrived against their will. Some lived comfortably and securely in Arab lands; others suffered from fear and oppression.

The history of the "Mizrahi aliyah" (immigration to Israel) is complex, and cannot be subsumed within a facile explanation. Many of the newcomers lost considerable property, and there can be no question that they should be allowed to submit individual property claims against Arab states (up to the present day, the State of Israel and WOJAC have blocked the submission of claims on this basis).
The unfounded, immoral analogy between Palestinian refugees and Mizrahi immigrants needlessly embroils members of these two groups in a dispute, degrades the dignity of many Mizrahi Jews, and harms prospects for genuine Jewish-Arab reconciliation.

Jewish anxieties about discussing the question of 1948 are understandable. But this question will be addressed in the future, and it is clear that any peace agreement will
have to contain a solution to the refugee problem. It's reasonable to assume that as final status agreements between Israelis and Palestinians are reached, an international fund will be formed with the aim of compensating Palestinian refugees for the hardships
caused them by the establishment of the State of Israel. Israel will surely be asked to contribute generously to such a fund.

In this connection, the idea of reducing compensation obligations by designating Mizrahi immigrants as refugees might become very tempting. But it is wrong to use scarecrows to chase away politically and morally valid claims advanced by Palestinians. The "creative accounting" manipulation concocted by the refugee analogy only adds insult to injury, and widens the psychological gap between Jews and Palestinians. Palestinians might abandon hopes of redeeming a right of return (as, for example, Palestinian pollster Dr. Khalil Shikai claims); but this is not a result to be adduced via creative accounting.

Any peace agreement must be validated by Israeli recognition of past wrongs and suffering, and the forging of a just solution. The creative accounts proposed by the
refugee analogy turns Israel into a morally and politically spineless bookkeeper.

Yehouda Shenhav is a professor at Tel Aviv University and the editorof Theory Criticism, an Israeli journal in the area of critical theory and cultural studies

Hitching a ride on the magic carpet - Haaretz - Israel News

So who are you going to believe? Goober and his pro-Israel propaganda or the words of the Jewish immigrants to Israel themselves?

Try finding an article from that time which references all these people as refugees. Good luck, as that version of history was only written 10 years ago.
 

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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EAO

Point -When will you learn I do not need luck - I have facts - Facts are not luck -

Facts tell what occurred -
You pose the question as to who will believe me or yourself -
Again a limited viewpoint and character flaw you display -
This is not about a children's argument - this is about FACTS -

I offered to have a rational discussion with you -
Your took that as an opportunity to attack me on this thread and the AI thread-
Bad decision -

But you make lots of those so I am sure you and your friends are quite familiar with your failures.

Well the Gloves are off

Now you are in my opinion and in no specific order:

An Apologist that only sees one side
Anti Semitic
Anti Israel
Anti - Truth
Racist
A blind supporter or Terror groups

2nd Last but not least if you suffered from split a personality - One would be Dumb and the other would be Dumber.

And last but not least the Palestinians are well versed and practiced at lying - Better than the Israeli's by a country mile

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/viewanswers.asp?questionID=000481

Nuri Said, Former Prime Minister of Iraq, in 1947, as quoted in Nimr el Hawari's 1955 book, Sir Am Nakbah (The Secret Behind the Disaster), allegedly encouraged Arabs to flee to safety before an Arab attack against the Jews:"The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down."

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/viewanswers.asp?questionID=000481

General Reference (not clearly pro or con)Ian J. Bickerton, PhD, Associate Professor of Middle Eastern and United States History at the University of New South Wales-Australia, and Carla L. Klausner, PhD, Professor of Modern Middle East, Medieval Europe and Judaic Studies at the University of Missouri-Kansas City, in their 2002 book A Concise History of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, offered the following:"Israelis long contended that during the Israeli War of Independence the Palestinian Arabs abandoned their homes and villages of their own free will. Not only that, they did so at the urging of the Arab leadership, who, the argument goes, told the Palestinians to leave until the Jewish state was destroyed and then they could return. The evidence, however, is inconclusive. According to some sources, the Arab League and the mufti ordered the Palestinians to remain where they were.
Israeli revisionist historians now maintain that as part of the campaign to evacuate Arabs from the Jewish state, the [Jewish] Haganah deliberately destroyed Arab houses and villages, broadcast false stories in Arabic of the spread of cholera and typhus epidemics, and urged the population to escape the bloodbath while there was still time. On the other hand, some [Israeli] efforts were made to reassure the Arabs, and in some instances Arabs were encouraged by the Jews to stay put, but by the first truce in mid-June 1948, over 250,000 Palestinians had fled, and this exodus had reached 300,000 by July [1948]. Arab Palestinians fled in some cases of their own free will, in some cases through fear; in other cases they were expelled. There were several additional reasons for the Arab exodus. Among the more important was the damage done to the Palestinian political and economic infrastructure by the British during their suppression of the Arab revolt of 1936-1939. Thus, Palestinian leadership was absent just at the time when it was needed most. Further collapse occurred during 1947-1949, as many of the local mayors, judges, communal and religious officials fled."
 

MHz

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And last but not least the Palestinians are well versed and practiced at lying - Better than the Israeli's by a country mile
lol, what Israeli told you that one? Goober the motto of Mossad is 'through deception we shall make war', that means lie your face off. lol
 

Goober

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lol, what Israeli told you that one? Goober the motto of Mossad is 'through deception we shall make war', that means lie your face off. lol
MHZFor you -

So says no less a scholar than Palestinian historian Rashid Khalidi in Blaming the Victims (page 214). In his in-depth narrative entitled, "The "Palestinian Peasant Resistance to Zionism," referring to the provisions of the Ottoman Land Code of 1858,

Khalidi writes:Jews often purchased land from an absentee landlord, [which led] to the expulsion of tenant cultivators….The land concerned had formerly been sparsely populated or uncultivated….But fellahin [Arab peasants] with long-standing rights of tenure [not ownership] were displaced in the process of Jewish settlement [ownership].
The fellahin naturally considered the land to be theirs and often discovered that they had ceased to be owners [which they never were] only when the land was sold to Jewish settlers by an absentee landlord who had acquired it in the decades following the implementation of the 1858 land law. (page 214) (Emphasis added.)

They too were there with their reporters. And in over 600 articles in the Tribune, from all these sources over a three-year period—not one report—not one sentence—about the Palestinian Jews (as they were referred to) throwing the Arabs (as they were referred to) out of the country.

The only sentence that even referred to Arabs leaving (and this was a month after the fraud of Deir Yassin on April 9, 1948) was written by Norderer on May 10, 1948, under the headline, "Palestine Jews Say Their Star Rose on Jan. 15."

(January 15 is when the British Army left Tel Aviv.) Norderer writes: "One hundred fifty thousand Arabs were estimated [perhaps inflated] to have left the areas of Palestine [the original borders] assigned to the Jews in the partition plan." That's it, folks!

From over 600 articles that appeared in the Chicago Tribune, one line from the Tribune and nothing from AP or UPI! Wouldn't you think that if this huge, brutal, forced expulsion of the poor, defenseless "Palestinians" out of their own country at the hands of the evil Jews had really occurred, as sworn to in Palestinian "eyewitness accounts," it would be considered newsworthy by the esteemed Chicago Tribune or at least one out of three independent, anti-Israel, anti-Jewish news sources?

Do you believe these news sources would conspire to keep such an expulsion secret? Did these news bureaus suddenly morph into lovers of Zion?
Why is it that all the "accounts" of the brutality inflicted on the poor, displaced "Palestinians" seem to have been written by "historians" after 1967?

Where were the poor, displaced "Palestinians" from 1948 through 1967, when Jordan occupied the West Bank and Egypt occupied Gaza? Al-Taqiya!

And then there is the litany of hysterical eyewitness accounts of Jews "massacring Palestinians" in 1948.
A battle, in order to qualify as a massacre, is "the merciless killing of a large number of people" (Webster's Dictionary), like the massacre of defenseless religious Jews in Hebron in 1929—and unlike the recent "virtual massacre" in Jenin, in which it was initially reported by hysterical "Palestinian" talking heads, an eager CNN and the usual suspects, that "over 1000 innocent Palestinians were murdered!"

This "massacre," backed up by legions of Palestinians and their "eyewitness accounts," turned out to be a battle in which 52 armed Arab terrorists were killed along with 22 Israeli soldiers.
 

MHz

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And then there is the litany of hysterical eyewitness accounts of Jews "massacring Palestinians" in 1948.
A battle, in order to qualify as a massacre, is "the merciless killing of a large number of people" (Webster's Dictionary), like the massacre of defenseless religious Jews in Hebron in 1929—and unlike the recent "virtual massacre" in Jenin, in which it was initially reported by hysterical "Palestinian" talking heads, an eager CNN and the usual suspects, that "over 1000 innocent Palestinians were murdered!"

This "massacre," backed up by legions of Palestinians and their "eyewitness accounts," turned out to be a battle in which 52 armed Arab terrorists were killed along with 22 Israeli soldiers.

So Israel is only 'bad' if they are killing? You seem to have left out some events.
(in part)
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The fighting in the camp lasted from 3 to 11 April.

Between the end of the fighting and the first access permitted to the refugee camp, there was a period of four days considered by all observers as critical.

Humanitarian assistance by UNRWA, ICRC and PRCS only started on 15 April, at first under IDF control. They were not allowed at first to carry it on a systematic and organized way and prevented from performing forensic operations.

The curfew was lifted only on 18 April, partially on 16 April.
Of the population of the refugee camp, at least 4,000 remained inside and did not evacuate the camp at any moment.

IDF systematically used bulldozers, tanks, armoured personnel carriers and infantry, also armoured helicopters. The operations took a broader scope after the death of 13 Israeli soldiers in an ambush inside the refugee camp.

IDF cut electricity in both the town and the camp. Water pipes to the refugee camp were also broken.

IDF prevented access to the camp to UNRWA, ICRC and PRCS even to evacuate the wounded and the dead. Only after a decision by the Israeli High Court of Justice, on 14 April, was access granted, though on a very limited basis and conditions.

Fighting was fierce in the refugee camp. A number of Palestinian fighters, estimated at around 150, handed themselves in to the IDF on the last days.

Palestinians had claimed that between 400 and 500 people had been killed, fighters and civilians together. They had also claimed a number of summary executions and the transfer of corpses to an unknown place outside the city of Jenin.

The number of Palestinian fatalities, on the basis of bodies recovered to date, in Jenin and the refugee camp in this military operation can be estimated at around 55. Of those, a number were civilians, four were women and two children. There were 23 Israeli fatalities in the fighting operations in Jenin.

The number of Palestinian fatalities could increase when the rubble is removed. Most observers share the certainty that there must be some bodies lying under the debris.

Nevertheless, the most recent estimates by UNRWA and ICRC show that the number of missing people is constantly declining as the IDF releases Palestinians from detention. In any case, a figure is very difficult to estimate. There are a number of reports about Palestinian civilians being used as human shields.

The IDF made a very large number of detentions, though most of the Palestinians were later set free.

The estimate of physical damage is as follows:

o Destruction of security buildings and infrastructure in Jenin city.
o Destruction of security buildings of the Palestinian Authority in Jenin city.
o 160 buildings totally destroyed in the refugee camp.
o 100 buildings partially damaged. 800 families without shelter, an overall estimate of over 4,000 persons.
o 10 per cent of the camp totally destroyed.
o The centre of the refugee camp has been totally levelled. The area has a diameter of about 200 m and a surface of about 30,000 m2, with approximately 100 buildings totally destroyed.

The IDF launched a well-prepared operation converging on the centre of the refugee camp as shown by the destruction of buildings in the streets and alleys leading there.

The certainty of buried explosives under the rubble has made it very difficult for specialized teams to move on the ground. Unexploded ordnance belongs to both the IDF and the Palestinians.

From the very first minute, civilians from the camp were eager to come back and started collecting their personal belongings, making the situation even more difficult and dangerous.

The civilians were under a huge shock. Not only were they deprived of water, food and electricity for many days, but they were also seeking information about the fate of relatives with whom they had lost contact.

For many days after the fighting ended, there was neither law nor order inside the camp. The Palestinian Authority was unable to provide security and law enforcement, as the security apparatus had been destroyed.

[/FONT]http://www.un.org/peace/jenin/

Their time of terrorizing friend and foe alike starts as early as this.

[SIZE=+1]The King David Massacre:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] The King David Hotel explosion of July 22, 1946 (Palestine), which resulted in the deaths of 92 Britons, Arabs and Jews, and in the wounding of 58, was not just an act of “Jewish extremists,” but a premeditated massacre conducted by the Irgun in agreement with the highest Jewish political authorities in Palestine-- the Jewish Agency and its head David-Ben-Gurion.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] According to Yitshaq Ben-Ami, a Palestinian Jew who spent 30 years in exile after the establishment of Israel investigating the crimes of the “ruthless clique heading the internal Zionist movement,”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] The Irgun had conceived a plan for the King David attack early in 1946, but the green light was given only on July first. According to Dr. Sneh, the operation was personally approved by Ben-Gurion, from his self-exile in Europe. Sadeh, the operations officer of the Haganah, and Giddy Paglin, the head of the Irgun operation under Menachem Begin agreed that thirty-five minutes advance notice would give the British time enough to evacuate the wing, without enabling them to disarm the explosion.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] The Jewish Agency’s motive was to destroy all evidence the British had gathered proving that the terrorist crime waves in Palestine were not merely the actions of “fringe” groups such as the Irgun and Stern Gang, but were committed in collusion with the Haganah and Palmach groups and under the direction of the highest political body of the Zionist establishment itself, namely the Jewish Agency.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] That so many innocent civilian lives were lost in the King David massacre is a normal part of the pattern of the history of Zionist outrages: A criminal act is committed, allegedly by an isolated group, but actually under the direct authorization of the highest Zionist authorities, whether of the Jewish Agency[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] during the Palestine Mandate or of the Government of Israel thereafter.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] The following is a statement made in the House of Commons by then British Prime Minister Clement Attlee:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]On July 22, 1946, one of the most dastardly and cowardly crimes in recorded history took place. We refer to the blowing up of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] Ninety-two persons lost their lives in that stealthy attack, 45 were injured, among whom there were many high officials, junior officers and office personnel, both men and women. The King David Hotel was used as an office housing the Secretariat of the Palestine Government and British Army Headquarters. The attack was made on 22 July at about 12 o’clock noon when offices are usually in full swing. The attackers, disguised as milkmen, carried the explosives in milk containers, placed them in the basement of the Hotel and ran away.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] The Chief Secretary for the Government of Palestine, Sir John Shaw, declared in a broadcast: “As head of the Secretariat, the majority of the dead and wounded were my own staff, many of whom I have known personally for eleven years. They are more than official colleagues. British, Arabs, Jews, Greeks, Armenians; senior officers, police, my orderly, my chauffeur, messengers, guards, men and[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] women-- young and old-- they were my friends.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] “No man could wish to be served by a more industrious, loyal and honest group of ordinary decent people. Their only crime was their devoted, unselfish and impartial service to Palestine and its people. For this they have been rewarded by cold-blooded mass murder.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Although members of the Irgun Z’vai Leumi took responsibility for this crime, yet they also made it public later that they obtained the consent and approval of the Haganah Command, and it follows, that of the Jewish Agency.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The King David Hotel massacre shocked the conscience of the civilizedworld. On July 23, Anthony Eden, leader of the British opposition Conservative[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Party, posed a question in the House of Commons to Prime Minister Atlee of the Labor Party, asking “the Prime Minister whether he has any statement to make on the bomb outrage at the British Headquarters in Jerusalem.” The Prime Minister responded:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] “…It appears that, after exploding a small bomb in the street, presumably as a diversionary measure-- this did virtually no damage-- a lorry drove up to the tradesmen’s entrance of the King David Hotel and the occupants, after holding up the staff at pistol point, entered the kitchen premises carrying a number of milk cans. At some stage of the proceedings, they shot and seriously wounded a British soldier who attempted to interfere with them. All available information so far is to the effect that they were Jews. Somewhere in the basement of the hotel they planted bombs which went off shortly afterwards. They appear to have made good their escape.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] “Every effort is being made to identify and arrest the perpetrators of this outrage. The work of rescue in the debris, which was immediately organized, still continues. The next-of-kin of casualties are being notified by telegram as soon as accurate information is available. The House will wish to express their[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] profound sympathy with the relatives of the killed and with those injured in this dastardly outrage.”[/SIZE]


[SIZE=-1]and this
[/SIZE]



[SIZE=+1]The Massacre at Baldat al-Shaikh:[/SIZE] [SIZE=+0]January 30-31, 1947(Palestine) : This massacre took place following an argument which broke out between Palestinian workers and Zionists in the Haifa Petroleum Refinery, leading to the deaths of a number of Palestinians and wounding and killing approximately sixty Zionists. A large number of the Palestinian Arab workers were living in Baldat al-Shaikh and Hawasa, located in the southeast of Haifa. Consequently, the Zionists planned to take revenge on behalf of fellow Zionists who had been killed in the refinery by attacking Baldat al-Shaikh and Hawasa.1[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]On the night of January 30-31, 1947, a mixed force composed of the First Battalion[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] of Palmakh and the Carmelie brigade (estimated at approximately 150 to 200[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] Zionist terrorists) launched a raid against the two towns under the leadership of[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] Hayim Afinu'am.]2 They focused their attack on the outskirts of Baldat al-Shaikh and[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] Hawasa. Taking the outlying homes by surprise as their inhabitants slept, they pelted[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] them with hand grenades, then went inside, firing their machine guns.3 The terrorist[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] attack led to the deaths of approximately sixty citizens inside their homes, most of[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] them women, elderly and children.4 The attack lasted for an hour, after which the[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] Zionists withdrew at 2:00 a.m., having attacked a large number of noncombatant[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] homes.5 According to a report written by the leader of the terrorist operation, "the[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] attacking units slipped into the town and began working on the houses. And due to[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] the fact that gunfire was directed inside the rooms, it was not possible to avoid[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] injuring women and children."6[/SIZE]


and this


[SIZE=+1]YEHIDA MASSACRE:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+0]13 December 1947(Palestine) : men of the Arab village of Yehiday (near Petah Tekva, the first Zionist settlement to be established) met at the local coffee house when they saw a British Army patrol enter the village, they were reassured espeically that Jewish terrorists had murdered 12 Palestinians the previous day. The four cars stopped in front of the cafe house and out stepped men dressed in khaki uniforms and steel helmets. However, it soon became apparent that they had not come to protect the villagers. With machine guns they sprayed bullets into the crowd gathered in the coffee house. Some of the invaders placed bombs next to Arab homes while other disguised terrorists tossed grenades at civilians. For a while it seemed as if the villagers would be annihilated but soon a real British patrol arrived to foil the well organized killing raid. The death toll of 7 Arab civilans could have been much higher. Earlier the same day 6 Arabs were killed and 23 wounded when home made bombs were tossed at a crowd of Arabs standing near the Damascus Gate in Jerusalem. In Jaffa another bomb killed six more Arabs and injured 40.[/SIZE]

Israeli Massacres

Are you getting a clear picture of who your cheering on?


[SIZE=+0]
[/SIZE]
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
53
48
Goober,

I am not your enemy. I'm not on the side of either belligerent in the Israel/Palestine civil war. IMO, this isn't a sporting event where you cheer on your team. This is a war where war crimes have been committed by both sides. Supporting either side's belligerents means you support war criminals and their crimes.

I fully support treating war criminals on both sides of this conflict the same way. I'm on the side of Palestinian and Israeli civilians who want to live in peace. I'm on the side of the overwhelming majority.

I have a different viewpoint than you or Canada's Prime Minister, who unshakably supports one side's belligerents and refuses to condemn their war crimes. I can't do that for moral and ethical reasons.

Regarding the '47-48 ethnic cleansing of Palestine of Palestinians, it doesn't matter why civilians left a battle field. Under international law, civilians who flee a war zone are entitled to return home after the fighting stops or compensation. Seizing their land and refusing to allow them to return home is a war crime. Both sides are guilty of this crime. 800,000 people fled in one direct and 10,000 fled the other way.

Israeli propagandist claims that Palestinian civilians fleeing a war zone in '47-48 were motivated by greed defies common sense. Its far more likely that they fled their homes out of fear. For the same reason why 10,000 Jews fled the Arab side. Civilians fleeing a war zone is a normal and predictable reaction during a battle. I can only think of one exception where civilians never fled a battle zone. That would be Gaza in 2008-09. Civilians didn't flee Gaza because the place is a giant concentration camp surrounded by walls, barbed wire and mine fields. Fleeing was not an option. Israeli civilians on the other hand were able leave Sderot which was targeted by Gaza rockets. (a Palestinian militant war crime which killed 3 Israeli civilians during the Operation Cast Lead)

In Gaza 2008-09, Israeli military forces invaded Gaza and encountered no resistance. All the Palestinian militants went into hiding. There were no heroic battles. As Amnesty International points out in their report, Operation Cast Lead was "22 days of death and destruction":
Israel/Gaza: Operation "Cast Lead": 22 days of death and destruction | Amnesty International
and Justice Goldstone found the same during his investigation:
United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza conflict

During "Operation Cast Lead", the Israeli military could go anywhere and destroy anything. Israeli soldiers described boredom. In their own words, they describe blowing up water towers and mosque minarets just for something to do. They also bombed hospitals and shot up ambulances killing doctors and medics for amusement. In one case, Israeli soldiers in a tank ordered a family out of their home. As they were eating snacks, and the family was standing helpless in front of their home, a soldier shot three of the children in their chest multiple times. Since the children were different ages and different heights, the evidence supports the father's claim that his children were murdered in cold blood. Occasionally Israeli soldiers were ordered to enter buildings. The standard procedure to reduce the risk to Israeli soldiers appears to be capture a civilian first, send them in to clear the area of mines and booby traps and then enter the building using the civilian's body to block bullets. In at least two cases, they used children to sweep for mines and explosives. They also held civilians in restraints on the main floors of homes they had turned into command posts and sniper positions. They dug pits next to their artillery pieces and tanks and filled them with handcuffed and blindfolded civilians including children as they shelled the civilians friends and relatives. They attacked UN bomb shelters filled with hundreds of scared civilians with chemical weapons which seared human flesh on contact. In at least one very well documented case, they directed about 40 civilians into a single house and then dropped a bomb on it. The Israeli soldiers knew they were killing unarmed and defenseless men, women and children. The Israeli military prevented the Red Cross from rescuing children and babies dying of dehydration as they lay next to their mother's rotting corpses. The destruction of Gaza water and sewage treatment facilities was especially cruel. Gaza still has shortages of potable water and raw sewage flows in the streets, since Israel refuses to allow repair materials to enter Gaza.

I can't defend or ignore the above war crimes. You seem able to ignore them. I'd like you to at least acknowledge that these things happened and if you feel they weren't war crimes, then explain your viewpoint.

I have no problem condemning both sides war crimes. Attacking innocent civilians with rockets and mortars is a war crime. I fully support justice in the form of a trial where the accused are presumed innocent until proven guilty. I'd like to see both Palestinian and Israeli war criminals held accountable for their crimes.

I support the Canadian government treating both the Palestinian and Israel governments the same way if they refuse to hold their own war criminals accountable for their actions... as appears to be the case.

Regarding your attempts to slander me:

Goober:
Now you are in my opinion and in no specific order:
An Apologist that only sees one side
Anti Semitic
Anti Israel
Anti - Truth
Racist
A blind supporter or Terror groups
Anyone who read what I wrote above can see that:

I am able to identify war crimes committed by both sides.
I am against war crimes committed against Jews and Israelis as well as Arabs and Palestinians.
I support people knowing the facts about this conflict.
 
Last edited:

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
53
48
DB,

I'm nobody's enemy. Part of my motivation is to see this war end peacefully. That can only happen if there is justice. While people suffer oppression and injustice, they will fight for freedom and justice. Its human nature.

The current violent path supported by Goober, Colpy, Prime Minster Stephen Harper, the Israeli government, Palestinian militants and others will eventually lead to one side's complete annihilation or both. I don't support this solution either.

You are obviously just as aware as I am of this conflict's brutal realities. But you do not advance the cause of peace when you blame Jews or Israelis as a group for these atrocities. Jews and Israelis are divided regarding this conflict. The forces of peace are weaker than the forces of violence. All who oppose war crimes and crimes against humanity must unite. That means Jews and Israelis who recognize IDF war crimes and crimes against humanity are our allies. I fully support the objectives of following Jewish and Israeli organizations:

B'Tselem - The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories

Jewish Voice for Peace

Jews for Justice for Palestinians

There are many similar Jewish and Israeli organizations which advocate Palestinian freedom and justice. They deserve our support.

Attacking all Jews and Israelis for the war crimes and crimes against humanity committed by individuals is counter-productive. The forces of violence want the forces of peace to be divided and fighting amongst ourselves. If you attack Jews and Israelis as a group, you are inadvertently helping those who support injustice and oppression.
 
Last edited:

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
53
48
DB,

If you truly believe in peace, I suggest that you visit the above websites and listen to their viewpoints. Also, you seem highly motivated. You can help the forces of peace by spreading this message to every forum where you post.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
41,030
43
48
Red Deer AB
DB,

I'm nobody's enemy. Part of my motivation is to see this war end peacefully. That can only happen if there is justice. While people suffer oppression and injustice, they will fight for freedom and justice. Its human nature.
That would only mean 'war' would pop up someplace else, most likely even with greater cost in $$ and in human suffering.
The Jews and Palestinians are being played against each other, intentionally, the ones that makes the money available is the first ines who should be paying with their own lives. This 70 year war as made trillions for the banks when all factors are weighed. As of late they are still well insulated from being named as 'part of the problem'. That now 'unclaimed' $700 T might even cover expenses.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
DB,

If you truly believe in peace, I suggest that you visit the above websites and listen to their viewpoints. Also, you seem highly motivated. You can help the forces of peace by spreading this message to every forum where you post.

I respectfully suggest that we have no partners for peace in the zionist camps, as many millions have discovered to their horror over the years. To soon we get old to late we get smart. I admire your steadfast determination to travel the high road. You know what they say about a one that will not bend though. But I assume you have thought of that many times. I do believe in the power and beauty of peace very much but I also know that this in not shared by those who profit from war and misery and they fear peace as if it were god himself.
 

Goober

Hall of Fame Member
Jan 23, 2009
24,691
116
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Moving
EAO

No it does not mean that I support War Crimes - I see how the Palestinians have been treated by their fellow Arabs - used as a boil on Western Countries conscience-

I see how the PLO are just a bunch of thieves - So they the Palestinians voted in Hamas - Little known fact - PLO ran multiple candidates where Hamas ran one - split vote -

Now the Palestinians have a hardline extremist group in power -
They threw the Plo out of Gaza - using everything up to and including murder-

Then Hamas - also PLO - Fired rockets at Israel - War Crime -
And Israel retaliated massively - War Crime in some case yes -

But to you it is all Israel - so please don't try that I believe in peace crap with me -

You are an apologist for Terrorists -

Last - I asked you why you were unsure that Israel had the right to exist within secure borders - That non answer along with your constant rants about Israel demonstrate a clear bias and blatant Anti Semitism.

Both you and MHZ must have a fukn Cray computer to store all your hate and dogmatic posts about Israel.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
41,030
43
48
Red Deer AB
Does your last post mean there is no rebuttal coming about the links in my last post? They were born there, that is being patriotic, same as if Mongolia invaded Canada and took control of the Gov., the original citizens would become the 'resistance'. Mongolian newspapers would call us terrorists.

Anything I post is usually found on the first page of a search. It is getting more light and more people are getting to read the details themselves. That list is just a summary, the whole list of Arab villages is more than 400 in number.