Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Does Israel have the right to exist with secure borders free from attack


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Goober

Hall of Fame Member
Jan 23, 2009
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Goober,

I'm just as against the atrocities and injustices you listed as I am against the artociticies and injustices committed against Palestinians.

Perhaps you should my post above. #308. It seems you understand me about as well as Colpy and maybe that post might help you understand me better.

EAO

Perhaps you should do some research and evaluation about what Hamas - Hezbollah want - That is the enemy of Israel - Perhaps you should read up on how Hamas TV and radio depicts Jews - same in Egypt - - Perhaps you would see that many want the total destruction of Israel - perhaps you may have noticed the every time the Arabs/Palestinians start having peace talks - Hamas and Hezbollah increase their attacks - they want reprisals from Israel to deliberately derail any chances of a peace accord - perhaps you should educate your self as to what Israel is up against.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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I realize you see Israel as an innocent victim and completely justified commiting war crimes and crimes against humanity. But I don't share your viewpoint. I'm revolted by Israel's war crimes and crimes against humanity. Let me try to explain it in a way that might help you understand my viewpoint.

How would you feel if the Canadian government expressed unshakably support for Clifford Olson? That's how I feel regarding Canada's unshakable support for Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity.

I see your post as the moral equivalent of defending Clifford Olson because he didn't murder as many people as Ted Bundy.

If Clifford Olson had as much media and political support as Israel, he may never have seen the inside of a prison.

If all Canadians knew about Clifford Olson was as distorted and manipulated as what they know about Israel, then its possible a majority of people could be convinced Olson was an innocent victim just like Israel.

BTW, I have nothing against Canadians with Swedish ancestry. I'm just against mass muderers who torture their victims, regardless of their race, religion or nationality.

If you and I both agree that Ted Bundy was evil, then why would I start a start a string on that subject?

I know you don't see your defense of Israel that way, but that's the way I see it. No I'm not accusing you of supporting Clifford Olson. But you do support Israel, despite their war crimes and crimes against humanity and IMO, that's about the same thing.

Now do you understand why I am passionate regarding this subject?

>>>

If you start a string in defense of the human rights record of the countries you just listed, I'll post responses which condemn their human rights record.

If you can give me another example where the Canadian government has expressed unshakable support for war criminals despite their crimes against humanity, then I'll start a string on that country critical of Canada's support.

How about giving me an example where the Canadian government remained silent while soldiers forced children in trenches surrounded by razor wire next to tanks and artillery during a battle with the children's relatives?

If you can give me an example where Canada refused to condemn a country's use of chemical weapons against civilians, then I'd take up that cause too.

Since we all agree that these nations you listed have poor human rights records, and they have already been condemned by the Canadian government, I don't see the point in starting a string.

As far as I know, Israel is the only country which commits war crimes and crimes against humanity and remains unshakably supported by the Canadian government and defended by people in this forum.

Okay, so that actually makes sense.......in a weird kinda way.

what you are saying is your distress at Israel in particular springs from Canada's support of that nation.....that is at least logical......now, let's strip away the layers of silliness....

Israel is a democracy....not ONE of her enemies is.

Israel has a large minortity of Muslim Arab citizens....that vote, have representation in the Knesset.....and yes, are often treated as second-class citizens. But even so, are often better off than their cousins in neighbouring Arab countries....

And I ask you, where are the Jewish minorities in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon....or even sane Jordan???? They were there 100 years ago.

What you refer to as "war crimes" and "Crimes against humanity" are for the most part ludicrous. The West Bank and Gaza are NOT occupied.......Israel is NOT responsible for the well-being of people in those areas.......I ask you yet again....Israel abandoned Gaza....forcibly taking all her settlers with her....leaving Gaza free and nfettered as a test case, and was preparing to do the same in the west Bank. What happened???? Hamas happened.

Israel has every right to defend itself, and has NO obligation to open its borders for anyone or anything.

War crimes in Gaza???? LAUGHABLE!!!!! In the 3 week incursion a year ago, the most modern military on earth, operating in the most densely populated region on earth, killed at MOST 1,418 people. At the very LEAST one third were militants. That, my friend, is the ultimate in restraint. FULL STOP.

If the Palestinians want Israel to stop shooting them, perhaps they should prevent rockets from being fired into Israel......and there is the crux of the matter....if israel ceased fighting, the attacks would continue. If the Palestinians ceased fighting, the attacks would end. THAT says it all.

Israel is a western democracy surrounded by lunatics.

Israel deserves our support.

That is one BIG reason I vote Conservative.

Oh. One last thing. I never heard that the victims of either Bundy or Olsen were firing rockets at them before they were killed.......
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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I'm trying to be polite Goober, despite the fact that I find your attempts to portray me as anti-Semitic particularly odious. Your smears against me in an attempt to stifle my criticism of war crimes and crimes against humanity are worse than intellectually lazy. They belittle anti-Semiticism and are revolting.

For far too long, far too many people have remained silent regarding Palestinian suffering and opression out of fear that their criticism of Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity might be interpreted as anti-semiticism or out of misplaced guilt about the Holocaust.

I condemn anti-Semiticism as strongly as I can can condemn any form of discrimination and prejudice. I fully support the equal rights of Jews to freedom of religion. I don't feel guilty about the Holocaust because I had nothing to do with it. If I was living in Europe in the 1930's and 40's, I'd like to believe that I'd have the guts to speak out as loudly against anti-Semiticism as I do now against the oppression and injustice of Palestinians. If I saw Jews being rounded up, I'm not sure I'd have the guts to hide Jews in my home and help them flee the country at the risk of my own personal safety and that of my family. I've never been in such a situation, but if I was and I didn't do anything, I know I would feel terrible for standing by and doing nothing.

But its 2010 and Palestinans are the new Jews. They are the ones suffering and I'm doing what more people should have done in the 1930's regarding the treatment of Jews. I'm speaking out and I don't fear you or your libelous and slanderous smears.
 

earth_as_one

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Jan 5, 2006
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Okay, so that actually makes sense.......in a weird kinda way.

what you are saying is your distress at Israel in particular springs from Canada's support of that nation.....that is at least logical......now, let's strip away the layers of silliness....

Israel is a democracy....not ONE of her enemies is.

Israel has a large minortity of Muslim Arab citizens....that vote, have representation in the Knesset.....and yes, are often treated as second-class citizens. But even so, are often better off than their cousins in neighbouring Arab countries....

And I ask you, where are the Jewish minorities in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon....or even sane Jordan???? They were there 100 years ago.

What you refer to as "war crimes" and "Crimes against humanity" are for the most part ludicrous. The West Bank and Gaza are NOT occupied.......Israel is NOT responsible for the well-being of people in those areas.......I ask you yet again....Israel abandoned Gaza....forcibly taking all her settlers with her....leaving Gaza free and nfettered as a test case, and was preparing to do the same in the west Bank. What happened???? Hamas happened.

Israel has every right to defend itself, and has NO obligation to open its borders for anyone or anything.

War crimes in Gaza???? LAUGHABLE!!!!! In the 3 week incursion a year ago, the most modern military on earth, operating in the most densely populated region on earth, killed at MOST 1,418 people. At the very LEAST one third were militants. That, my friend, is the ultimate in restraint. FULL STOP.

If the Palestinians want Israel to stop shooting them, perhaps they should prevent rockets from being fired into Israel......and there is the crux of the matter....if israel ceased fighting, the attacks would continue. If the Palestinians ceased fighting, the attacks would end. THAT says it all.

Israel is a western democracy surrounded by lunatics.

Israel deserves our support.

That is one BIG reason I vote Conservative.

Oh. One last thing. I never heard that the victims of either Bundy or Olsen were firing rockets at them before they were killed.......

I understand what you are saying, but again I fundamentally disagree with your viewpoint.

How many civilians do you have to kill with chemical weapons, how many children do you have to use as human shields, how many civilians under white flags of surrender can you gun down, how many schools, universities, churches, mosques and hospitals can you destroy, how many ambulances and medics can you kill.... ...before its a war crime?

Could Israel have committed far worse war crimes? Sure. But I don't the American people would have continued to support Israel beyond a certain point and that was the main reason for "restraint", not concern for fellow human beings. I've read the reports on what happened in Gaza last year. Isreal indicated that they would accept Hamas's offer of a truce and then attacked a Police Academy during a graduation ceremony killing all the new cadets and children on their way to the school across the street. When their military forces went into Gaza, they met no resistance, because every militant went into hiding. I've read the reports by Israeli soldiers about their boredom, shooting at mosques and water towers for fun. I read about how they levelled purely civilian targets like sewer, water treatment facilities and hundreds of other targets which had absolutely no military value.

The majority of Palestinians are unarmed civilians. 99.9% of them fired just as many rockets and mortars as Olson's and Bundy's victims.

Unlike you, I don't see "Israel and the Occupied Territories" as two sovereign states. Israel and the US have tried to make the Palestinian government appear sovereign with puppet governments, but its a farce. When Hamas was democratically elected with the equivalent of a municipal governmental powers, the US and Israel armed Fatah and supported a coup which succeded in the West Bank and failed in Gaza.

If Palestinians cannot choose their leaders, then they are not a sovereign state.

Israel collects Palestinian taxes and controls their borders. That's not a sovereign state.

Israel's colony building in the West Bank and Gaza embargo proves that Palestine is not a sovereign state.

The Occupied Territories have been that way since 1967, which shows this is a longterm situation, not a temporary situation.

Israel's rolling annexation of Palestinian land and constant expansion proper into the West Bank proves these non-citizens have no control over their borders, which is a characteristic of a sovereign state. Their lack of full recognition at the UN proves they are militarily occupied.

Until Palestine is a sovereign state, where its citizens have freedom, security and self determination, they are militarily occupied and the occupier (Israel) is responsible for their condition.

I know you don't believe in international law, but when it comes to border disputes and occupations, international law is all the Palestinians have in their favor... in theory. The reality is Israel tramples on their rights on a daily basis and the only tool in their defense is international laws, treaties and conventions. Instead of upholding international law, the world does nothing. Israel is not held accountable for their atrocities and they've convinced you they are defending themselves.

Imagine if Canada played the same game in the North West Territories as Israel does in the West Bank and Gaza. We could provoke the natives repeatedly with a series of injustices and atrocities until they become violent. Then we use that violence to justify taking away their homes and property and forcing them into refugee camps. Sure we could allow a small minority to remain behind for propaganda purposes, but we'd make sure they have no real power or voice. We could carry out targetted assassinations of their leaders. We could justify our oppression, injustices and atrocities based on the provoked violence of a minority. We could relocate them to concentration camps in order and build Whites-Only colonies on what used to be their villages, farms and cemetaries. We could claim like Israel, that the NWT is a sovereign state, but I don't many people would believe it without a lot of manipulative propaganda.

I see Israel's claims about Palestinian sovereignty as a lie. I see Abbas (like Arafat before him) as a corrupt person with delusions of grandeur propped up with Israel and American military and economic aid, most of which goes straight into their criminal organization. Abbas is a wealthy man because he profits from the misery of Palestinians. Criminals like Abbas are not responsible for the welfare of Palestinians. They are just figureheads with about as much real power as the Governor General. Abbas is so unpopular that if Israel and the US withdrew their support, he'd be dead within a few days. Abbas has no choice now but do do as he'd told or face the consequences. Does this situation even remotely sound like a democracy?

In a real democratic sovereign state, the people choose their leaders and control their destiny.

I see Israel as about as democratic as imperial Rome which also had three classes of people; full citizens with full rights, partial citizens with some rights and slaves with no rights. In Israel, the three classes are Jewish Israelis, Arab Israelis and Palestinians.

I realize I'll never convince you of my viewpoint. But I'm hoping you'll understand it.

From my viewpoint, the provoked criminal activity of a minority of non-citizens has been used for decades by the full citizens to treat all the non-citizens with ever greater harshness.

From my viewpoint, Israel is not a true democracy. Its a cruel plutocracy which is in the process of seizing all remaining property of value from its non-citizens in order to build colonies for their first citizens. At one time, the non-citizens had rights. Now 1.5 million of them are prisoners in the giant Gaza concentration camp. The West Bank is well along the process of being turned into a series of Gazas. Israel has perpetrated 40 years of war crimes and crimes against humanity.

I am not the kind of a person who can remain silent in the face of such oppression and injustice. I cannot support people who commit war crimes and crimes against humanity. From my viewpoint, people who would do these things or support people who do these things are evil and they must be challenged.

From my viewpoint, Harper and the conservatives are evil. Their support of Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity is evil. This is one example. I can also point to their support of American war crimes against the people of Iraq as another. That's why I can't be silent.

I understand your viewpoint about Israel very well. At one time I used to share it. But I don't see Israel that way any more and haven't for a long time. I don't expect that everyone will see things the same way I do. You will never convince me to go back to seeing Israel through rose colored glasses.

Israel's leaders do not deserve our support. What they deserve is a trial at the International Court of Justice where they can be held accountable for their war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Even you should know that forcing people out of their homes, so they can be demolished to build homes for other people based on race and/or religion is wrong. Israel does this every single day for 40 years now. Its happening in Jerusalem and the West Bank as I write. Once you see this injustice clearly, then all the other injustices which stem from this fundamental injustice become clear. That's what this conflict is about. Its about cleansing Palestine of Palestinians one home at at time until its completely cleansed of non-Jews. If they do it slow enough, its unnoticed, like the hour hand on the clock, which appears not to be moving.
 
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Downhome_Woman

Electoral Member
Dec 2, 2008
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Goober,

I'm just as against the atrocities and injustices you listed as I am against the artociticies and injustices committed against Palestinians.

Perhaps you should my post above. #308. It seems you understand me about as well as Colpy and maybe that post might help you understand me better.
The problem I have with statements such as yours, is that while you say that you're against all injustices and atrocities. you never seem to mention the other atrocities - you know, the ones committed by the people you (and by you, I mean those that espouse the same thoughts as yourself).I never hear pro Palestinian people condemn Hammas and all the other factions there for siphoning off NGO money to line their pockets. I never hear any condemnation of people that take donated moneys for education and then turn it into actual school books that regurgitate the same garbage that was spewed forth in NAZI Germany. Hell - they still sell the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as a serious book in the markets.You bet - Israel makes mistakes big time and like every other democratic country that likes to portray itself as being open, they have a lot of grey areas. But guess what. In an area that is famous for literally killing opposition, Israel has Jews who advocate for Arabs vocally and big surprise - they aren't carted off to prison for 'interrogation'.OK - their neighbours might not like them, but nobody stops them either. Arabs in Israel at least have the same legal rights as everyone else in Israel - and if their rights are violated - which no doubt they are, they at least have legal recourse.When is the last time you heard of Arabs in a Arab country advocate for oppressed Jewish citizens? They do exist, by the way.
For all those who say that they are just concerned with justice and that they have no bias?Stop talking about the injustices committed on one side. I'd believe you more if you actually did look at both sides. And actually demanded that both sides behave.You might want to also address the way your agrieved party treats its own citizens. Look into the number of young women who flee the Palestinian authority into Israel because they fear for their lives - you know, the whole 'honour killing' thing'?
You want to talk perecution and oppression - I have no problem with that. But for once I'd like to read someone who notes that if one claims persecution then they should be damned certain that they don't do it as well.
 
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earth_as_one

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I have condemned Palestinian militant war crimes. If you like, I will repeat that condemnation.

Anyone who fires rockets and mortars at civilians is a war criminal. Palestinian militants who have attacked Israeli civilians are war criminals and should be brought before the ICJ along side the Israeli war criminals.

Satisfied?

I suggest you read the Goldstone Report:
United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza conflict

I have read this document from one end to the other and I'm well aware of its contents. If you read it, you would also be aware of all the atrocities, not just the Palestinian ones.
 

earth_as_one

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I'll make it easy for you. Here's a media summary. Israeli atrocities in blue, Hamas atrocities in green:

Findings:

The Mission found that, in the lead up to the Israeli military assault on Gaza, Israel imposed a blockade amounting to collective punishment and carried out a systematic policy of progressive isolation and deprivation of the Gaza Strip. During the military operation, houses, factories, wells, schools, hospitals, police stations and other public buildings were destroyed, with families, including the elderly and children, left living amid the rubble of their former dwellings long after the attacks ended, as no reconstruction has been possible due to the continuing blockade. Significant trauma, both immediate and long-term, has been suffered by the population of Gaza. More than 1400 people were killed. The Gaza military operations were directed by Israel at the people of Gaza as a whole, in furtherance of an overall policy aimed at punishing the Gaza population, and in a deliberate policy of disproportionate force aimed at the civilian population. The destruction of food supply installations, water sanitation systems, concrete factories and residential houses was the result of a deliberate and systematic policy to make the daily process of living, and dignified living, more difficult for the civilian population. Israeli forces also humiliated, dehumanized and carried out an assault on the dignity of the people in Gaza, through the use of human shields, unlawful detentions, unacceptable conditions of detention, the vandalizing of houses, the treatment of people when their houses were entered, graffiti on the walls, obscenities and racist slogans. The Israeli operations were carefully planned in all their phases as a deliberately disproportionate attack designed to punish, humiliate and terrorize a civilian population, radically diminish its local economic capacity both to work and to provide for itself, and to force upon it an ever increasing sense of dependency and vulnerability. Responsibility lies in the first place with those who designed, planned, ordered and oversaw the operations.

Israel failed to take feasible precautions required by international law to avoid or minimize loss of civilian life, injury to civilians and damage to civilian objects. The firing of white phosphorus shells over the UNRWA compound, the intentional strike at the Al Quds hospital using high explosive artillery shells and white phosphorous, the attack against Al Wafa hospital, were violations of international humanitarian law. The kinds of warnings issued by Israel in Gaza cannot be considered as sufficiently effective in the circumstances to comply with customary law. There were numerous instances of deliberate attacks on civilians and civilian objects (individuals, whole families, houses, mosques) in violation of the fundamental international humanitarian law principle of distinction, resulting in deaths and serious injuries. Israeli attacks were also launched with the intention of spreading terror among the civilian population. In several cases, Israeli armed forces did not allow humanitarian organisations access to the wounded and medical relief, as required by international law. In one incident investigated, involving the deaths of at least 35 Palestinians, the Mission found that Israeli forces launched an attack which a reasonable commander would have expected to cause excessive loss of civilian life. By deliberately attacking police stations and killing large numbers of policemen, most of whom were civilian non-combatants, Israel violated international humanitarian law.

The Mission found that Israel used white phosphorous, flechettes and heavy metal weapons. The use of white phosphorous, flechettes and heavy metal (such as tungsten) is restricted or even prohibited in certain circumstances. Flechettes, as an area weapon, are particularly unsuitable for use in urban settings while the Mission is of the view that the use of white phosphorous as an obscurant should be banned. The Mission also investigated several incidents in which Israeli armed forces used local Palestinian residents as human shields. Israel’s questioning of Palestinian civilians under threat of death or injury to extract information constitutes a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention. Israeli forces in Gaza rounded up and detained large groups of persons protected under the Fourth Geneva Convention. Severe beatings, humiliating and degrading treatment and detention in foul conditions suffered by individuals in the Gaza Strip under the control of the Israeli forces and in detention in Israel, constitute a violation of international humanitarian and human rights law. Israel’s treatment of women during detention was contrary to the requirements of international law. Israel’s rounding-up of large groups of civilians and their prolonged detention under the circumstances described in the Report constitute a collective penalty and amounts to measures of intimidation or terror prohibited the Fourth Geneva Convention. Israel’s attacks against the Palestinian Legislative Council building and the main prison in Gaza constituted deliberate attacks on civilian objects in violation of international humanitarian law. Israeli armed forces unlawfully and wantonly attacked and destroyed without military necessity a number of food production facilities, drinking water installations, farms and animals. Israeli forces carried out widespread destruction of private residential houses, water wells and water tanks unlawfully and wantonly. Israel also disregarded the inviolability of United Nations premises, facilities and staff, and this is unacceptable.

Israel’s blockade of Gaza amounts to a violation of Israel’s obligations as an Occupying Power under the Fourth Geneva Convention. The deliberate actions of the Israeli forces and the declared policies of the Government indicate the intention to inflict collective punishment on the people of the Gaza Strip. Israel violated its obligation to allow free passage of all consignments of medical and hospital objects, food and clothing that were needed to meet the urgent humanitarian needs of the civilian population.

There is strong evidence that Israeli forces committed grave breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention in Gaza, including: willful killing, torture or inhuman treatment, willfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health, and extensive destruction of property. As grave breaches, these acts give rise to individual criminal responsibility. The use of human shields also constitutes a war crime under the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court. Israeli acts that deprive Palestinians in the Gaza Strip of their means of subsistence, employment, housing and water, that deny their freedom of movement and their right to leave and enter their own country, that limit their rights to access a court of law and an effective remedy, could lead a competent court to find that the crime of persecution, a crime against humanity, has been committed.

In the West Bank, with acts of violence by settlers against Palestinians (which have increased), Israel failed to protect the Palestinians, and sometimes acquiesced to the acts of violence. Israel used excessive force against Palestinian demonstrators, including the use of firearms, including live ammunition, and the use of snipers resulting in the deaths of demonstrators, in violation of international law. Israel has discriminatory “open fire regulations” for security forces dealing with demonstrations, based on the presence of persons with a particular nationality, violating the principle of non-discrimination in international law. Israel has failed to investigate, and when appropriate prosecute, acts by its agents or by third parties involving serious violations of international humanitarian law and human rights law. Israel’s removal of residential status from Palestinians could lead to virtual deportation and entail additional violations of other rights.

Israeli practices of detention of Palestinians in Israeli prisons before and during the military operations are generally inconsistent with human rights requirements. The practice of administrative detention by Israel contravenes the right not to be arbitrarily detained, and Israel’s use of secret evidence as a basis for the administrative detention is inconsistent with the ICCPR. The detention of members of the Palestinian Legislative Council by Israel is in violation of the ICCPR also constitutes an instance of collective punishment prohibited under article 33 of the GC IV. The same can be said about the massive detention of adults and children, often in inhuman or degrading conditions and without the guarantees required by international law.

Israeli checkpoints are often a site of humiliation. The extensive destruction and appropriation of property, including land confiscation and house demolitions in the West Bank including East Jerusalem, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly, amounts to a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions. The continued construction of settlements constitutes a violation of article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention. As movement and access restrictions, the settlements and their infrastructure, demographic policies vis-à-vis Jerusalem and Area C of the West bank, as well as the separation of Gaza from the West Bank, prevent a viable, contiguous and sovereign Palestinian state from arising, they are in violation of the ius cogens right to self-determination.

The prolonged situation of impunity has created a justice crisis in the OPT that warrants action. Israel’s system of investigation and prosecution of serious violations of human rights and humanitarian law, in particular of suspected war crimes and crimes against humanity, has major structural flaws that make the system inconsistent with international standards. The few investigations conducted by the Israeli authorities on alleged serious violations of international human rights and humanitarian law and, in particular, alleged war crimes, lack the required credibility and conformity with international standards. There is little potential for accountability for serious violations of international humanitarian and human rights law through domestic institutions in Israel.

Inside Israel, there has been intolerance for dissent against the war, the authorities placed obstacles in the way of protesters, there were instances of physical violence against protesters, and hostile retaliatory actions against civil society organisations by the Government. Activists were also compelled to attend interviews with the General Security Services. Israel’s denial of media access to Gaza and the continuing denial of access to human rights monitors are an attempt to remove the Government’s actions from public scrutiny and to impede investigations and reporting.


Palestinian armed groups have launched rockets and mortars into Israel since April 2001. Between 27 December 2008 and 18 January 2009, these attacks have left 4 people dead and hundreds injured, while causing terror, psychological trauma, and erosion of the educational, social, cultural and economic lives of the communities in southern Israel. For its part, Israel has not provided the same level of protection from rockets and mortars to affected Palestinian citizens as it has to Jewish citizens.

In firing rockets and mortars into Southern Israel, Palestinian armed groups operating in the Gaza Strip failed to distinguish between military targets and the civilian population and civilian objects in Southern Israel. Where there is no intended military target and the rockets and mortars are launched into civilian areas, they constitute a deliberate attack against the civilian population, which would constitute war crimes and may amount to crimes against humanity. The rocket and mortars attacks have caused terror in the affected communities of southern Israel, causing loss of life and physical and mental injury to civilians as well as damage to buildings and property. Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit meets the requirements for prisoner-of-war status under the Third Geneva Convention and should be protected, treated humanely and be allowed external communication. The Mission found no evidence to suggest that Palestinian armed groups in Gaza either directed civilians to areas where attacks were being launched or that they forced civilians to remain within the vicinity of the attacks. The Mission also found no evidence that members of Palestinian armed groups engaged in combat in civilian dress. In the one incident the Mission investigated, of an Israeli attack on a mosque, the Mission found that there was no indication that that mosque was used for military purposes or to shield military activities.

The Gaza authorities carried out extrajudicial executions, arbitrary arrest, detention and ill treatment of people, in particular political opponents, which constitute serious violations of human rights. The Palestinian Authority’s actions against political opponents in the West Bank also constitute violations of human rights. Detentions on political grounds violate the rights to liberty and security of person, to a fair trial and the right not to be discriminated against on the basis of one’s political opinion. Reports of torture and other forms of ill treatment during arrest and detention require prompt investigation and accountability. Finally, conflict between Fatah and Hamas is having adverse consequences for the human rights of the Palestinian population.


International law sets obligations on States to ensure compliance by other States (in this case, Israel) with international humanitarian law, and to help protect populations from war crimes and crimes against humanity. The international community has been largely silent and has to-date failed to act to ensure the protection of the civilian population in the Gaza Strip and generally in the OPT. The isolation of the Gaza authorities and the sanctions against the Gaza Strip have negatively impacted on the protection of the population. Protection of civilian populations requires respect for international law and accountability for violations.

To deny modes of accountability reinforces impunity. Allegations of violations of international humanitarian law falling within the jurisdiction of responsible Palestinian authorities in Gaza have also not been investigated. Where domestic authorities are unable or unwilling to comply with this obligation, international justice mechanisms must be activated to prevent impunity. There is little potential for accountability for serious violations of international humanitarian and human rights law through domestic institutions in Israel and even less in Gaza. Longstanding impunity has been a key factor in the perpetuation of violence in the region. Several of the violations referred to in this report amount to grave breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention, and their is a duty imposed by the Geneva Conventions on all High Contracting Parties to search for and bring before their courts those responsible for the alleged violations. The serious violations of International Humanitarian Law recounted in this report fall within the subject-matter jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court (ICC). The prosecution of persons responsible for serious violations of international humanitarian law would contribute to ending such violations, to the protection of civilians and to the restoration and maintenance of peace.

Recommendations

• To the Human Rights Council, that it Request the Secretary-General to bring this report to the attention of the Security Council under Art. 99 of the Charter so that the Security Council may consider action; and that it Submit the report to the General Assembly with a request that it should be considered;

• To the United Nations Security Council, with regard to Israel, that it require the Government of Israel, under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations: To take all appropriate steps, within a period of three months, to launch appropriate investigations that are independent and in conformity with international standards; Inform the Security Council, within a further period of three months, of actions taken; Establish an independent committee of experts in International Humanitarian and Human Rights Law to monitor and report on any domestic legal or other proceedings undertaken by the Government of Israel; Upon receipt of the committee’s report the Security Council consider the situation and, in the absence of good faith investigations that are independent and in conformity with international standards, again acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations, refer the situation in Gaza to the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court.

• To the United Nations Security Council, with regard to the relevant Palestinian authorities, that it: require the independent committee of experts (referred to in previous paragraph) to monitor and report on any domestic legal or other proceedings undertaken by the relevant authorities in the Gaza Strip; Upon receipt of the committee’s report the Security Council consider the situation and, in the absence of good faith investigations that are independent and in conformity with international standards, acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations, refer the situation in Gaza to the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court.

• To the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, With reference to the declaration under article 12 (3) received by the Office of the Prosecutor of the ICC from the Government of Palestine, the legal determination should be made by the Prosecutor as expeditiously as possible; The Mission further recommends that the United Nations Human Rights Council formally submit this report to the Prosecutor of the ICC.

• To the General Assembly, The Mission recommends that the General Assembly request the Security Council to report to it on measures taken with regard to ensuring accountability for serious violations of international humanitarian and human rights law; The GA may consider whether additional action within its powers is required in the interests of justice, including under resolution 377 (V) Uniting for Peace; Establish an escrow fund to be used to pay adequate compensation to Palestinians who have suffered loss and damage, and that the Government of Israel pay the required amounts into such fund; Ask the Government of Switzerland to convene a conference of the High Contracting Parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949 on measures to enforce the Convention in the OPT.

• To Israel, The Mission recommends that Israel immediately cease the border closures and restrictions of passage through border crossings with the Gaza Strip, cease the restrictions on access to the sea for fishing purposes review its rules of engagement, standard operating procedures, open fire regulations and other guidance for military and security personnel; Allow freedom of movement for Palestinians within the OPT - within the West Bank including East Jerusalem, between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank and between the OPT and the outside world; lifts travel bans currently in place on Palestinians for their human rights or political activities; Release Palestinians who are detained in Israeli prisons in connection with the occupation; Cease the discriminatory treatment of Palestinian detainees. ; Release all members of the Palestinian Legislative Council currently in detention; Cease actions aimed at limiting the expression of criticism by civil society and members of the public Refrain from any action of reprisal against individuals and organizations that have cooperated with the UN Fact Finding Mission; respect the inviolability of UN premises and personnel; Provide reparation to the United Nations fully and without further delay.

• To Palestinian armed groups, The Mission recommends that Palestinian armed groups undertake forthwith to respect international humanitarian law, and that Palestinian armed groups who hold Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit in detention release him on humanitarian grounds.

• To responsible Palestinian authorities, Ensure prompt and independent investigation of all allegations of serious human rights violations by security forces under its control; Release without delay all political detainees currently in their power and refrain from further arrests on political grounds.

• To the international community, States Parties to the Geneva Conventions of 1949 start criminal investigations in national courts, using universal jurisdiction, where there is sufficient evidence of the commission of grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions of 1949; Support the work of Palestinian and Israeli human rights organizations in documenting and publicly reporting on violations of human rights and international humanitarian law; States involved in peace negotiations between Israel and representatives of the Palestinian people, especially the Quartet, ensure that respect for the rule of law, international law and human rights assume a central role in internationally sponsored peace initiatives; Initiate a programme of environmental monitoring under the auspices of the United Nations.

• To the international community and responsible Palestinian authorities, Establish appropriate mechanisms to ensure that the funds pledged by international donors for reconstruction activities in the Gaza strip are smoothly and efficiently disbursed.

• To the international community, Israel and Palestinian authorities, Actors involved in the peace process should involve Israeli and Palestinian civil society and women in devising sustainable peace agreements based on respect for international law.

• To the United Nations Secretary General, Develop a policy to integrate human rights in peace initiatives in which the United Nations is involved, especially the Quartet.

• To the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights, Monitor the situation of persons who have cooperated with the UN Fact Finding Mission and pay attention to follow up to the Mission’s recommendations in its periodic reporting on the OPT to the Human Rights Council.
Is that fair and objective enough for you?
 
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earth_as_one

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Jan 5, 2006
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When I read that document, I see 95% of the atrocities were committed by Israel against Palestinians. To be fair, 95% of the condemnation should be directed at Israel.
 

earth_as_one

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Jan 5, 2006
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I don't support the war crimes by either side.

Canada's government condemns Palestinian war crimes and atrocities yet is silent regarding the majority of war crimes and crimes against humanity which were committed by Israel.

Worse, the Canadian government has stated that they unshakably support Israel. I interpret that as meaning that they unshakably support Israel's use of chemical weapons against civilians, Israel's use of civilians literally as human shields, Israel's attacks against civilians and civilian infrstructure... and so on.

Read the report!
 
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earth_as_one

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By the way, I'm pro-Human rights. That would make me pro-Israeli as well as pro-Palestinian. I completely support finding out who the war criminals are on both sides and bringing them before the International Court of Justice.

How about you? Do you support bringing all the war criminals to justice or just the Palestinian ones? I see you don't support the atrocities committed by Palestinians. But I never saw you condemn the Israeli atrocities. Does that mean you support Israeli atrocities?
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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...I never hear pro Palestinian people condemn Hammas and all the other factions there for siphoning off NGO money to line their pockets. ...

Then you never read what I wrote. Let me quote myself:

eao:

I see Abbas (like Arafat before him) as a corrupt person with delusions of grandeur propped up with Israel and American military and economic aid, most of which goes straight into their criminal organization. Abbas is a wealthy man because he profits from the misery of Palestinians. Criminals like Abbas are not responsible for the welfare of Palestinians. They are just figureheads with about as much real power as the Governor General. Abbas is so unpopular that if Israel and the US withdrew their support, he'd be dead within a few days. Abbas has no choice now but do do as he'd told or face the consequences. Does this situation even remotely sound like a democracy?
 

MHz

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Mar 16, 2007
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See they can target just the rockets, no need to take out whole neighborhoods. BTW why would you want to introduce cease-fire breaches when you are a fan of these guys (for which no action was taken by the anybody really)

Published Saturday 02/12/2006 12:45
Gaza - Ma'an - A newly-released report has revealed that Israeli violations of the ceasefire agreement, since its inception at 6am on Sunday 26th November, are ongoing and vary between killing, arrests and the demolishing of Palestinian houses in the Gaza Strip.

The report, which was prepared by Palestine today news, said that the West Bank cities and towns witnessed most of the Israeli violations. On the second day of the ceasefire, the Israelis killed a man and an old woman in Jenin, while two boys were killed on the fifth and the sixth days. A total of 130 Palestinians have been arrested, and many houses have been demolished, in addition to many incursions and forced entry campaigns.

Day one of the truce - Sunday 26th November

. Israelis arrest a man in Hebron city;

. Arrest one in Beituniya, near Ramallah;

. Four boys arrested in Abu Dis;

. One boy injured in 'Azzun, near Qalqilia

The second day - Monday 27th November

. The killing of the leader of the An Nasser Salah Addin Brigades in Qabatia, south of Jenin;

. The killing of an elderly lady, also in Qabatia;

. The arrest of six Fatah members in Nablus;

. The arrest of three Hamas members in Qalqilia;

. The arrest of two Hamas members in Ramallah;

. The arrest of three Hamas members in Hebron;

. The arrest of a Palestinian at the israeli barrier near Qalqilia,

. The arrest of three more in Nablus

. A military incursion into Bethlehem, and the arrest of another Palestinian.

The third day - Tuesday 28th November

. Israeli military incursion into Tulkarem, arrest three.

. The arrest of eleven Palestinians in Silat Harithiya near Jenin (mostly from one family),

. The demolition of two houses in 'Arabbuna, near Jenin;

. Assassination attempt against Palestinian activist in Qabatia, near Jenin;

. Incursion into As Samu, south of Hebron, launching a search campaign in the town

. Abduction of an activist from the Al Aqsa Brigades, and two other citizens in Qabatia

The fourth day - Wednesday 29th November

. Israeli artillery shelled the northern area of the Gaza Strip

. Israeli military incursion into the villages of Tulkarem, and a search campaign throughout the villages.

. Israeli special forces abducted Jihad Abu Khadir in Qalqilia.

The fifth day - Thursday 30th November

. The killing of a boy in Beita, south of Nablus;

. Invasion of Azza refugee camp in Bethlehem, and the arrest of 11 Palestinians;

. Incursion in Tuqu', south of Bethlehem, and the arrest of two citizens;

. The arrest of four people from Ash Shawawra, east of Bethlehem;

. The arrest of one person in the Karkafa area of the city of Bethlehem;

. Four arrested n Nablus;

. Eight arrested in Ramallah;

. Four students arrested in Qarawat Bani Zaid, in the Ramallah area;

. Three arrested in the city of Hebron;

. Two boys arrested in 'Yabad, near Jenin;

. Five arrested in Nablus and Balata refugee camp;

. Israeli forces raided farms south of Tubas, forcing the farmers off the land;

. Israeli military forces closed the entrance of Tammun, harassing the citizens;

. Israeli military forces occupied the home of a citizen in 'Alar, turning it into a military post;

. Houses demolished in Kfar Etzion and Salfit;

. One boy arrested at Atarot barrier, north of Jerusalem;

. Military raid on Salfit, shooting at the houses of the citizens;

. Arrest of three Palestinians on the border with Egypt;

. Israeli military bulldozers demolish several houses and farmers houses north and east of Qalqilia;

. Bulldozers demolish the home of a Palestinian citizen in Wadi ar Rasha, near Qalqilia.

Sixth day - Friday 1st December

. The killing of a Palestinian in Hebron;

. A full-scale military operation in Asira, north of Nablus, and the arrest of 25 Palestinians in the town of Asira, and the city of Nablus;

. The arrest of a Palestinian citizen in Nablus;

. The arrest of a Palestinian citizen in ash-Shawawra in Bethlehem, and the theft of his money and gold jewelry;

. The arrest of a man in Bani Na'im, east of Hebron;

. The arrest of a man at the "Container" barrier, between Abu Dis and Bethlehem;

. The injury of a Palestinian boy in 'Azzun, near Qalqilia;

. The injury of a Palestinian boy in Sa'ir, north of Hebron;

. The arrest of two young men in Qalqilia;

The seventh day - Saturday 2nd of December

. Military campaign in many towns of the West Bank, and the arrest of many Palestinians.
Maan News Agency: Israeli violations of ceasefire agreement within the last seven days
 

Downhome_Woman

Electoral Member
Dec 2, 2008
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Well, an interesting and valuable piece of propaganda......and I mean that without the usual negative.....propaganda that tells truth is valuable.

But, I would hardly call it a "documentary". Documentaries tell both sides.

:)

I did enjoy it.

All documentaries do is document what someone wants to tell.
The Oxford online Dictionary says this about the word 'documentary': documentary
• adjective 1 consisting of documents and other material providing a factual account. 2 using film, photographs, and sound recordings of real events.

• noun (pl. documentaries) a documentary film or television or radio programme.
Factual accounts ? What might be factual to one side may not be factual to the other. Either way, this isn't really a documentary as I would see it - not because it doesn't portray both sides, but because it's less than 10 minutes long and it consists of bites of information - it's not a story - a documentation. Do I object to it? why should I? Every special interest group does it - Arabs, Jews, Western societies, every religious group -they all do it to varying degrees of proficiency and of course they are doing it it to show how they feel, what they believe and how they want others to perceive them. It's no big deal.