Is penal labour acceptable?
- Thread starter Machjo
- Start date
I don't believe in letting a person starve to death, but I do believe in letting them think they are going to starve to death if they don't get off their ass. :lol:
Here it is. It is being suggested that prisoners work and pay room and board from the pay earned. If someone refuses to work, they don't get paid, and they can't pay room and board. Having them "think" they are going to starve if they don't work but not actually following through with it might work for the first little bit, until it is figured out that the starvation threat is just that, a threat and empty to boot. So where is the incentive to work and pay room and board when in reality you can still get fed and bed without working?
We could be kind enough to provide them with an isolation cell and 3 square meals a day. But if they want more than that, they're free to work. I think after awhile in a cell, most would be willing to work. Again, I'm making exception for those who are incapable of working, or those ho have not even had an opportunity to work for pay, obviously. But once an opportunity to work is offered to an able-bodied and able-minded inmate, and he turns it down, then into the isolation cell he goes.
Yeah, we could be kind to them, ignore the isolation cell option above, and just let them live as they do now, but without any pay. They'd till get room, board, and all other necessities of life.
While I disagree with being untruthful to a convict, and so oppose JLM's idea above, I could see some inmates wanting to work as a means of feeling like a useful and valued member of the community. Some of us work not just for money, but also out of a certain feeling of accomplishment. If it's a choice between the absolute necessities of life on the one hand, and a little spare spending money and a feeling of accomplishment and a chance ot keep busy on the other, I'm sure many would choose the second option.
all of this is a far cry from your original contentions. So, was it a matter of you not thinking things through to begin with, or you are easily swayed from your convictions?
I guess I hadn't thought things through to begin with. That said, I can be swayed by logical arguments. So it's both really.
Wow. That's even better than what a minimum wage earner gets out of prison. Being kind is one thing, but giving inmates an advantage over non-inmates, that's a whole other ballgame. They'd already get transport to and from work, assuming they don't get to work in prison itself. They get free room and board and earn minimum wage like anyone else! Wow! I can see a few McDonald's employees clamouring to get to prison.
While it's fine to give them minimum wage, don't you think they should be required to pay room and board if they can afford it? Considering the size of the rooms and the simpleness of the meals, I can't imagine it would be that expensive. Heck, they'd still get to save more than a person who has to run around trying to find a room to rent near work (and maybe pay for a criminal record check or credit history, etc), buy a car of a bus pass and cooking utensils, do the groceries, find time to cook, etc. etc. etc.
While I can see treating prisoners well, they ought never to be treated better than the average minimum wage earner. Seriously now.
Look at the corruption in TX where an entire Sheriff Dept was planting drugs and busting people because they were getting kick backs from the prison.
Lawsuit filed on South Texas private prison corruption scandal | Texas Prison Bid'ness
Lawsuit filed on South Texas private prison corruption scandal
Thu, 10/22/2009 - 10:15am — Bob Former Willacy County Attorney Juan Guerra has filed a private lawsuit against several South Texas officials and former U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales in conjunction with his ongoing battle to expose private prison corruption related to the construction of private prisons in Raymondville.
According to the report by the Rio Grande Guardian ("KGBT: Juan Guerra files suit against Lucio, Gonzales, et al," October 20)
The Guardian’s media partner, KGBT-TV, is reporting that former Willacy County DA Juan Guerra has filed a federal lawsuit against state Sen. Eddie Lucio and 28 others. Also sued, Action 4 News is reporting, is former U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, former U.S. Attorney for Southern District of Texas Donald DeGarbrielle, and state District Judges Migdalia Lopez and Janet Leal.
Among the accusations are engaging in organized criminal activity, accepting of an honorarium, abuse of official capacity, official oppression, murder and manslaughter, Action 4 News reports. In the 35-page lawsuit, Guerra alleges that Lucio and the others used their positions to derail an investigation into private prisons in Willacy County.
In the lawsuit, Guerra, who now does pro bono work for immigrants locked up in prison, explains the investigation he mounted in April 2001 over the death of inmate Gregorio de la Rosa. He said that investigation led him to uncover "a massive kickback and corruption scheme between the private prison companies and public officials." Just before leaving elected office last year, Guerra famously got a Willacy County grand jury to indict then-Vice President Dick Cheney, former U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, Lucio and others. The case was quickly thrown out. He told the Guardian at the time that his top secret investigation was known as Operation Caca Grande.
Guerra made national headlines when a grand jury criminally indicted Cheney and Gonzales last year in related corruption charges. Two Willacy Commissioners and one Webb County Commisser pled guilty to receiving bribes related to prison construction in the county. We'll keep you posted on what pieces of information Juan's latest effort may bring about. See some of our previous coverage of Raymondville prison scandals.
Pennsylvania rocked by 'jailing kids for cash' scandal
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Lawsuit filed on South Texas private prison corruption scandal
Thu, 10/22/2009 - 10:15am — Bob Former Willacy County Attorney Juan Guerra has filed a private lawsuit against several South Texas officials and former U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales in conjunction with his ongoing battle to expose private prison corruption related to the construction of private prisons in Raymondville.
According to the report by the Rio Grande Guardian ("KGBT: Juan Guerra files suit against Lucio, Gonzales, et al," October 20)
The Guardian’s media partner, KGBT-TV, is reporting that former Willacy County DA Juan Guerra has filed a federal lawsuit against state Sen. Eddie Lucio and 28 others. Also sued, Action 4 News is reporting, is former U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, former U.S. Attorney for Southern District of Texas Donald DeGarbrielle, and state District Judges Migdalia Lopez and Janet Leal.
Among the accusations are engaging in organized criminal activity, accepting of an honorarium, abuse of official capacity, official oppression, murder and manslaughter, Action 4 News reports. In the 35-page lawsuit, Guerra alleges that Lucio and the others used their positions to derail an investigation into private prisons in Willacy County.
In the lawsuit, Guerra, who now does pro bono work for immigrants locked up in prison, explains the investigation he mounted in April 2001 over the death of inmate Gregorio de la Rosa. He said that investigation led him to uncover "a massive kickback and corruption scheme between the private prison companies and public officials." Just before leaving elected office last year, Guerra famously got a Willacy County grand jury to indict then-Vice President Dick Cheney, former U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, Lucio and others. The case was quickly thrown out. He told the Guardian at the time that his top secret investigation was known as Operation Caca Grande.
Guerra made national headlines when a grand jury criminally indicted Cheney and Gonzales last year in related corruption charges. Two Willacy Commissioners and one Webb County Commisser pled guilty to receiving bribes related to prison construction in the county. We'll keep you posted on what pieces of information Juan's latest effort may bring about. See some of our previous coverage of Raymondville prison scandals.
Pennsylvania rocked by 'jailing kids for cash' scandal
You are using a false premise to base your argument upon. All states and all Human rights Organizations do agree that certain rights are forfeited upon a conviction requiring a prison sentence.
So you end point of penal labour is based upon a fallacy.
First correct the existing travesty's of justice.
ALL sentencing is to be stated at sentencing. (FI: Not the stated 50$. Then no mention of loss of armed forces enlistment,gov't jobs,criminal record,Church community services,etc) State EVERYTHING that will be his sentencing.
So giving choice for jobs is OK, but you seem to find purpose oriented for our benefit, not his. Benefits should be his first, such has sending money home to family, raising his kids, etc, then the remainder to society.
Oh yeah, if he is to enjoy the right to work, a sister privilege the OA pension should be his as well. As it is now one of the "top secret sentencing, or if you will... jabs" of cutting off pensions was not stated at his trial which is a deliberate overlooked travesty in any democratic system.
AndyF
ALL sentencing is to be stated at sentencing. (FI: Not the stated 50$. Then no mention of loss of armed forces enlistment,gov't jobs,criminal record,Church community services,etc) State EVERYTHING that will be his sentencing.
So giving choice for jobs is OK, but you seem to find purpose oriented for our benefit, not his. Benefits should be his first, such has sending money home to family, raising his kids, etc, then the remainder to society.
Oh yeah, if he is to enjoy the right to work, a sister privilege the OA pension should be his as well. As it is now one of the "top secret sentencing, or if you will... jabs" of cutting off pensions was not stated at his trial which is a deliberate overlooked travesty in any democratic system.
AndyF
You have a problem with that?
Currently the minimum security jail in Nanaimo has a contract with MoH for brushing the roads. From what I understand they are doing quite well. Most are in jail for stupid **** like third impaired and drug related crimes such as B&E. They get training in operating chainsaws, first aid and many other job skills. I for get what they are paid.
Paid or not, they're gaining sellable skills and experience, self-esteem and self-confidence. They also gain camaradery with their work collegues, I do agree though that they ought to be paid at least minimum wage, though it would be fair to have them also pay some kind of compensatory tax to those they'd hurt for example, and possibly with the option of paying extra for better food and shelter than just the bare minimum.