Is infidelity immoral?

[Cannuck]

Assuming one is to commit an act of infidelity and they were to ensure no transmission of STD's or extramarital pregnancies, what is morally wrong with it?

I don't believe in morality (that's a whole other thread) I believe in what works given what you choose to be. If you want to be a person that people trust and rely on then you have to behave in such a way that creates that.

 

[taxslave]

I think your question is loaded. Now it might be immoral to a religious person although that hasn't stopped many of them from having affairs. However if one is not religious it would depend on what agreement you have with your partner.

 

[ansutherland]

To me it seems that for one to make the argument that cheating is immoral it would have to be based on the fact that lying is immoral. But that seems a little absolutist for my liking as it would imply that lying to spare someone’s feeling is also immoral. So as someone pointed out, lying when you know it will hurt someone is immoral. Again, there are many shades of grey here as this is not as definitive as some would imply. What is important is that we look at the logical consequences of our statements. If you believe that lying is immoral then lying to the Nazi's about the Jews hidden in your basement is immoral. If you believe that lying is immoral when it means lying about something that would hurt someone, then lets see what the logical consequences of that are. Perhaps lying about the sexual fantasy you had is then immoral? What about lying about having a change of religious faith? Is that immoral?

I would almost guarantee that the feelings that most have regarding infidelity do not stand up to a simple test of logic. They are there and they are strong, but that does not make them rational.

 

[gerryh]

what's irrational is you putting "lying" at the same level as infidelity.

 

[Outta here]

.......You may agree to it, and would likely break your vow at some point, but should you feel bad?

It's completely up to you how you feel about breaking your vow - the fact that you feel it's likely you'll break your vow at some point tells me you place little value on vows, period.

Though it caused her great emotional anguish, her request was unfair to begin with.

Then why agree to it in the first place? This seems an extremely illogical way to present your argument. If you thought it was unfair, it is infinitely more unfair to agree to any expectations under false pretense.

I don't agree at all with that, I am merely pointing out that just because you agree to it im marriage does not mean it is immoral to break the agreement.

It seems to me far more immoral to enter into any agreement with anyone - most certainly someone you profess to love - with a hidden expectation that you'll break that agreement. Furthermore, why confine your broken agreements to just those within your marriage? If the stance you're taking is valid, it should be valid across any setting, in any relationship - business, personal or otherwise. I wonder how long it would take for you to realize that agreements serve a valuable purpose in our society.

 

[Colpy]

By JC I am assuming Jesus? Lets not get into the immorality of religion. Christopher Hitchens has done plenty to show the absurdity of religion being moral. Further to that, people have been stoned to death for all sorts of minor things in some parts of the world.

Christopher Hitchens has done no such thing.

Nor has anyone else.

 

[darkbeaver]

In some classes of some cultures a type of hi infidelity is the norm and among those participating individuals the question of morality does not enter. Infidelity is the right of power. So they believe.

 

[CanadianLove]

I got a big lecture on this this Summer from a preacher relative.

Like witchcrafters they call iot a splitting of the souls. Every person you get with takes a piece of you and you get a piece of them. Not only that but you get a piece of everyone they ever slept with and vise versa. They use this for an explaination for people who get scatter brained. They have so many pieces in them they can't maintain a constant though for any length of time,

God forbid if you sleep with a *****. You could be bound to half the province at that point.

Have to add here that you should not let strangers play with your ORGONE.

 

[s_lone]

To me it seems that for one to make the argument that cheating is immoral it would have to be based on the fact that lying is immoral. But that seems a little absolutist for my liking as it would imply that lying to spare someone’s feeling is also immoral. So as someone pointed out, lying when you know it will hurt someone is immoral. Again, there are many shades of grey here as this is not as definitive as some would imply. What is important is that we look at the logical consequences of our statements. If you believe that lying is immoral then lying to the Nazi's about the Jews hidden in your basement is immoral. If you believe that lying is immoral when it means lying about something that would hurt someone, then lets see what the logical consequences of that are. Perhaps lying about the sexual fantasy you had is then immoral? What about lying about having a change of religious faith? Is that immoral?

I would almost guarantee that the feelings that most have regarding infidelity do not stand up to a simple test of logic. They are there and they are strong, but that does not make them rational.

Fidelity can be rational.

I'm not married to my girlfriend but we have an arrangement and clear expectations from one another. She's allowed to have sex with anybody she wants. But she's NOT allowed to have sex with me afterwards without telling me about her sexual encounter with another. (The same applies to me of course.)

In other words, what we promise ourselves is not fidelity, it is immediate straightforward honesty in the case of infidelity. I have no right to dictate what she can do with her body. But I do have a right to expect her to tell me if she has sex with someone else, for the simple reason of protecting my OWN body and health. If it ever happens, the fact that it is immediately put out in the open forces us to discuss it and assess whether or not we want to continue our relationship.

It's a simple question of integrity and respect. I trust her and she trusts me to respect our arrangement.

That's the arrangement we have but another couple can very well have a different one. I'm comfortable with monogamy but I understand others can live differently.

To sum it up, what is immoral is to lie about infidelity when you already promised NOT to lie about the subject.

Lying in itself, well that depends on the context.

 

[ansutherland]

It's completely up to you how you feel about breaking your vow - the fact that you feel it's likely you'll break your vow at some point tells me you place little value on vows, period.



Then why agree to it in the first place? This seems an extremely illogical way to present your argument. If you thought it was unfair, it is infinitely more unfair to agree to any expectations under false pretense.



It seems to me far more immoral to enter into any agreement with anyone - most certainly someone you profess to love - with a hidden expectation that you'll break that agreement. Furthermore, why confine your broken agreements to just those within your marriage? If the stance you're taking is valid, it should be valid across any setting, in any relationship - business, personal or otherwise. I wonder how long it would take for you to realize that agreements serve a valuable purpose in our society.

I do value agreements, but this is not about what I value, rather what is immoral. The stance I am seeing is that lying is immoral, plain and simple. This cannot be true. It takes only a simple test to show this view is flawed; as I have already demonstrated. If I am wrong in what I have demonstrated, explain why.

One thing that has not yet been done is qualifying what it is to commit adultery. To many it is as simple as masturbation.....just ask the former Republican candidate Christine O'Donnell. Now, if I enter into a marriage with someone who expects that I will not masturbate, as this is infidelity, and lets assume society agrees with her, would you still say that I was immoral when I agreed to her terms of marriage and still masturbated? Whose business is it what I do with myself on my own time? How can a husband or wife claim any ownership over something like that? Further to that, if society does not see it my way, what choice does one have but to lie? You could say just don't lie. Well that is fine for someone not concerned with living a normal life, but for someone wishing to have a normal life as society defines it yet does not in every way agree with how society expects them to live, what are they to do?

 

[Colpy]

Fidelity can be rational.

I'm not married to my girlfriend but we have an arrangement and clear expectations from one another. She's allowed to have sex with anybody she wants. But she's NOT allowed to have sex with me afterwards without telling me about her sexual encounter with another. (The same applies to me of course.)

In other words, what we promise ourselves is not fidelity, it is immediate straightforward honesty in the case of infidelity. I have no right to dictate what she can do with her body. But I do have a right to expect her to tell me if she has sex with someone else, for the simple reason of protecting my OWN body and health. If it ever happens, the fact that it is immediately put out in the open forces us to discuss it and assess whether or not we want to continue our relationship.

It's a simple question of integrity and respect. I trust her and she trusts me to respect our arrangement.

That's the arrangement we have but another couple can very well have a different one. I'm comfortable with monogamy but I understand others can live differently.

To sum it up, what is immoral is to lie about infidelity when you already promised NOT to lie about the subject.

Lying in itself, well that depends on the context.

I would say that your agreement, which allows sexual freedom, means that playing with another is NOT infidelity, as it is not outside the rules.....but not telling you about it would be infidelity....

 

[JLM]

Assuming one is to commit an act of infidelity and they were to ensure no transmission of STD's or extramarital pregnancies, what is morally wrong with it? Isn't it just like any other form of deceit? Assuming no one knows and no harm (STD's or pregnancies) is done, how is it any different than any other form of lying? One could argue that lying is immoral, but is it really? Can you be so absolute about lying?

I ask this not to imply that I engage in this behaviour, but because if you are one who believes in the relativistic nature of morality, you would likely have a hard time supporting the claim that it's the ultimate marital sin.

Pretty basic stuff that we learned at our mother's knee.

 

[Outta here]

I do value agreements, but this is not about what I value, rather what is immoral. The stance I am seeing is that lying is immoral, plain and simple. This cannot be true. It takes only a simple test to show this view is flawed; as I have already demonstrated. If I am wrong in what I have demonstrated, explain why.

One thing that has not yet been done is qualifying what it is to commit adultery. To many it is as simple as masturbation.....just ask the former Republican candidate Christine O'Donnell. Now, if I enter into a marriage with someone who expects that I will not masturbate, as this is infidelity, and lets assume society agrees with her, would you still say that I was immoral when I agreed to her terms of marriage and still masturbated? Whose business is it what I do with myself on my own time? How can a husband or wife claim any ownership over something like that? Further to that, if society does not see it my way, what choice does one have but to lie? You could say just don't lie. Well that is fine for someone not concerned with living a normal life, but for someone wishing to have a normal life as society defines it yet does not in every way agree with how society expects them to live, what are they to do?

I have to say, your posts are coming off as one who wants their cake and be able to eat it too. In one sentence you attempt to redefine morality to suit your (different?) outlook, in the next you profess a wish to live a 'normal' life. Well, what you've done there is contradict the heck out of yourself. "Normal" is a pretty relative term btw - but in the context you're using it, you've got no choice but to include the morality that goes with a "normal" life.

Look, morality can be a pretty intangible thing to try and nail down - for brevity's sake, I'd like to whittle it down to a basic understanding: a society's morality is an agreement amongst themselves regarding what they value, and what behaviours best exhibit those values.

The upside of this you is If you don't like the rules within the sphere you find yourself in, you just have to find another group of people to align yourself with. There's all kinds out there, you'd have no trouble finding someone who is comfortable with the rules you want to play by. You might find this alot easier than trying to stuff yourself into an agreed set of behaviours that just don't fit for you. Be careful though, they'll likely not take kindly to someone trying to cherry pick or manipulate whatever constitutes 'acceptable behaviour' within their culture either.

Clearly, the majority of the culture here on this forum values fideltiy - so you trying to convince the majority of people here that what they value is incorrect is not going to yield for you the results you seek. Find a forum on open marriages, and you might encounter a completely different set of values and responses.

If you find any society, anywhere, that places absolutely no value on honesty though, please do report back - I've never heard of one yet, and I'd be curious to see how they survive as a group without cannibalizing each other.

 

[Retired_Can_Soldier]

:lol:All morality aside, did the Op go into the back room at the peelers and is now trying to hypothesize a suitable excuse for her loving him long time baby?:lol:

I have to say, your posts are coming off as one who wants their cake and be able to eat it too.

Did you say cake. MMmmmm RCS loves cake.

 

[ansutherland]

I have to say, your posts are coming off as one who wants their cake and be able to eat it too. In one sentence you attempt to redefine morality to suit your (different?) outlook, in the next you profess a wish to live a 'normal' life. Well, what you've done there is contradict the heck out of yourself. "Normal" is a pretty relative term btw - but in the context you're using it, you've got no choice but to include the morality that goes with a "normal" life.

Look, morality can be a pretty intangible thing to try and nail down - for brevity's sake, I'd like to whittle it down to a basic understanding: a society's morality is an agreement amongst themselves regarding what they value, and what behaviours best exhibit those values.

The upside of this you is If you don't like the rules within the sphere you find yourself in, you just have to find another group of people to align yourself with. There's all kinds out there, you'd have no trouble finding someone who is comfortable with the rules you want to play by. You might find this alot easier than trying to stuff yourself into an agreed set of behaviours that just don't fit for you. Be careful though, they'll likely not take kindly to someone trying to cherry pick or manipulate whatever constitutes 'acceptable behaviour' within their culture either.

Clearly, the majority of the culture here on this forum values fideltiy - so you trying to convince the majority of people here that what they value is incorrect is not going to yield for you the results you seek. Find a forum on open marriages, and you might encounter a completely different set of values and responses.

If you find any society, anywhere, that places absolutely no value on honesty though, please do report back - I've never heard of one yet, and I'd be curious to see how they survive as a group without cannibalizing each other.

First off, you are correct in saying that morality is hard to pin down. That being said, I do not think it correct to say that each culture can truely define what is moral, thus I've "got no choice but to include the morality that goes with a "normal" life". Secondly, I am not here to convince the majority on this forum, merely start a conversation and see if anyone can explain in a substantive and coherent fashion why it is immoral to commit infidelity. Thus far, I am unmoved. Not out of arrogance for my opinion, rather the notion that the belief in someone committing an act with someone else and not involving their partner and without their partners knowledge or permission is automatically immoral. As I stated, to some masturbation or watching porn is cheating. If lying about that is immoral, then my moral compass is way out of whack. As far as I am concerned, no one can rightfully claim the aforementioned as immoral, even if you are lying about it.

 

[Nuggler]

By JC I am assuming Jesus? Lets not get into the immorality of religion. Christopher Hitchens has done plenty to show the absurdity of religion being moral. Further to that, people have been stoned to death for all sorts of minor things in some parts of the world.

I guess my basic point is that if you have promised to be faithful, and break that faith, that promise, then you are as I described, and no mincing of words, or splitting of hairs is going to change that.

Morality of religion...........mehhhhhhhhhhhhhh. don't think so. You didn't get the play on words re; stoning? not surprised. probably wasn't funny or plain enough. sorry.

And fukk Chris Hitchens, whomever he may be. you too for that matter.

 

[s_lone]

First off, you are correct in saying that morality is hard to pin down. That being said, I do not think it correct to say that each culture can truely define what is moral, thus I've "got no choice but to include the morality that goes with a "normal" life". Secondly, I am not here to convince the majority on this forum, merely start a conversation and see if anyone can explain in a substantive and coherent fashion why it is immoral to commit infidelity. Thus far, I am unmoved. Not out of arrogance for my opinion, rather the notion that the belief in someone committing an act with someone else and not involving their partner and without their partners knowledge or permission is automatically immoral. As I stated, to some masturbation or watching porn is cheating. If lying about that is immoral, then my moral compass is way out of whack. As far as I am concerned, no one can rightfully claim the aforementioned as immoral, even if you are lying about it.

While these are delicate subjects, it seems to me that all you need to do is have a good discussion with your loved one so you can both agree on what you consider unfaithful. Once that is done, it's pretty simple to determine whether what you're doing is moral or not.

 

[karrie]

plain and simple, when you marry a person of your own free will, you enter a contract. When you take your vows you state the terms of that contract (or you've stated your terms to one another, but regardless, you are in agreement of the terms). To break that contract is immoral. Breaking a contract you freely agreed to is seen in such a light throughout all of society, in fact, it is often seen as criminal, if you want to take religious conotation out of the factor. There's no real excuse around breaching the agreements of a marriage. If you feel monogamy is unnatural, don't marry anyone who doesn't agree with you.

 

[ansutherland]

I guess my basic point is that if you have promised to be faithful, and break that faith, that promise, then you are as I described, and no mincing of words, or splitting of hairs is going to change that.

Morality of religion...........mehhhhhhhhhhhhhh. don't think so. You didn't get the play on words re; stoning? not surprised. probably wasn't funny or plain enough. sorry.

And fukk Chris Hitchens, whomever he may be. you too for that matter.

You ought to listen to Christopher Hitchens sometime....everyone who has ever taken for granted the supposed irrefutable benevolence of religion should listen to him. Regarding this: "Morality of religion...........mehhhhhhhhhhhhhh. don't think so. You didn't get the play on words re; stoning? not surprised. probably wasn't funny or plain enough. sorry." I'm not really sure what you were trying to get at??

"And fukk Chris Hitchens, whomever he may be. you too for that matter." Just as Jesus would say; right?

 

[karrie]

"And fukk Chris Hitchens, whomever he may be. you too for that matter." Just as Jesus would say; right?

lol... if you're trying to play the 'you're not being a very good Christian' card with the guy who hates religion, you're not gonna get far.