Independence for Quebec
- Thread starter Aliksander
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You need to spread this message to francophones in Quebec then, as (especially under Parti Quebecois gov'ts) they treat language as a very serious issue, going so far as to repeatedly invoke the Not Withstanding clause of the constitution to repress non-francophone rights.
Exactly, but many francophones do not seem to understand this...
Well, I'm not going to make the gross generalization that all seperatists share the bigotry of Jacques Parizeau (who publicly blamed his referendum defeat on the ethnic communities and "money", which was inferred to be a reference to the Jewish community, in his post referendum speech) but it is fairly well documented that a degree of this exists, especially outside Montreal. By your definitions, one could almost argue that there are several cultures vying for existence in Quebec, not one distinct Quebec culture: how well will these be serviced by a movement to govern the region based on preservation of a single "distinct" culture?
This remains the biggest mystery of all to me: how can something that will cause massive upheavals and possibly crippling economic results be seen to be beneficial? Quebec has been a poor province for decades, even with massive cash/program infusions and trade arrangements. What is going to change to improve this, especially when the cash transfers from other provinces stop and new trade regulations and tarriffs are implemented? The US gov't has gone on record in the past as saying that an independent Quebec will not automatically be accepted into NAFTA, and I dare say that the rest of Canada will side with the Americans on that point. Every time the spectre of Quebec independence is raised, the Canadian dollar weakens, thereby weakening some sectors of our economy, but why should we allow an independent Quebec to use our currency? Quebec seperatists always like the idea of "sovereignty association" but they fail to realize that the other provinces don't see a point to it: most of Canada views seperation like a divorce, where once its legal, you are no longer bound to one another and no longer have to be nice to one another. How can any of this be beneficial to either party?
I was born in Montreal of British ancestry and lived there for 26 years. I left in '72 not because of the PQ, but simply because I had enough of civilization. When the PQ took over I was happy that the English were getting a taste of their own medicine for having treated the French as second class citizens. But now, 40 years later, I think it is time the French grew up.
Quebec may be predominantly French, but it also a multi-cultural province. The government of Quebec treats other cultures with the same disdain that the English used to treat them. They are just as contemptuous as their predecessors. They have ignored the basic human rights of the English and the aboriginal peoples. I can no longer support their cause because they are just as bad as or even worse than the English ever were.
It is beyond childish to be constantly whining about inequality while oppressing your own minority groups. The rest of Canada has been giving Quebec preferential treatment for several decades, mollycoddling you guys in a vain attempt to keep this country together. But all you do is act like a bunch of spoiled little brats who throw tantrums every time you don't get everything your own way and threaten to take your toys home so nobody else can play with them.
Grow up! Separation is a bad dream. The aboriginal people will take the northern half of the province and you will be left with almost nothing in the way of natural resources. What English businesses that haven't already moved to Ontario will. Time to stop being such petulant little spoiled brats and become part of the family, start acting like responsible citizens and treating your minorities the way you want to be treated.
Quebec may be predominantly French, but it also a multi-cultural province. The government of Quebec treats other cultures with the same disdain that the English used to treat them. They are just as contemptuous as their predecessors. They have ignored the basic human rights of the English and the aboriginal peoples. I can no longer support their cause because they are just as bad as or even worse than the English ever were.
It is beyond childish to be constantly whining about inequality while oppressing your own minority groups. The rest of Canada has been giving Quebec preferential treatment for several decades, mollycoddling you guys in a vain attempt to keep this country together. But all you do is act like a bunch of spoiled little brats who throw tantrums every time you don't get everything your own way and threaten to take your toys home so nobody else can play with them.
Grow up! Separation is a bad dream. The aboriginal people will take the northern half of the province and you will be left with almost nothing in the way of natural resources. What English businesses that haven't already moved to Ontario will. Time to stop being such petulant little spoiled brats and become part of the family, start acting like responsible citizens and treating your minorities the way you want to be treated.
What is poignant about this post is what is not said. What plans do you guys have to deal with your share of the National debt? When you pull the pin what are you planning to use for money? Quebeckers seem to be more intent on being different from her sister provinces than working with them and cultivating similarities. I don't know a hell of a lot about Quebec, except that my brother has lived there for over 35 years and when I spent a week in Montreal years ago (my only real snap shot of the province) I can say that I never met a more self centred bunch of people, so I guess if you guys want to leave all I would probably say is "Bon Voyage", but make sure your bills are paid when you do. :lol::lol:
A nation is not necessarily a political entity, but akin rather to an ethnic identity. So we talk of the Cree Nation, or the Quebec Nation, etc. It has more to do with how one identifies as a person with a larger group sharing a common ethnic, civic or other identity.
A country likewise does not necessarily have a particular sense, but it always refers to land one identifies with.
They are far from being synonymous terms even though they often overlap since many nations also identify with a common piece of land. There are notable exceptions however such as the Romani, and even many of them likely identify with the lands of their birth, but as a Romani nation, they would not share any common Romani homeland.
On the topic of language, Franco-Ontarians would of course see language and cultural as a primary point of distinction between themselves and English-speaking Ontarians; and I'm sure it's similar for English-speaking Quebecers. So since I'm a Franco-Ontarian, it's natural that I'd tend to see it differently from a French-speaking Quebecer.
So you may view things differently in Quebec, but when I'd lived in Montreal and La Malbaie, it seemed that in Montreal language is a major issue, whereas in La Malbaie, it is less so but still significant. So it may depend on the part of Quebec one lives in too.
Would this apply to the Cree and Inuit too?If they don't like it, they'd be free to move?
We have ot realise that democracy, if taken to an extreme, merely becomes mob rule. I'm not saying Quebecers are the only ones guilty of this, and certainly many English Canadians think the same way.
When the majority sees democracy not as a means of simply administering the country, but rather as a weapon to be wielded strategically, then democracy becomes legitimized in the eyes of the minority.
You have to realize that Euro-Canadian (i.e. English and French Canadian) majority norms did not just appear without a lot of evil behind it, including residential schools, murder, cultural genocide often via violent means in the schools, etc. etc. etc.
A point comes where the rule of the majority is essentially illegitimate. Most First Nations have yet unsettled treaties. Is it right for the majority to just vote a legally binding contract entered into in good faith away?
I'm not saying English-Canadians are not guilty of this too mind you, but just pointing out that justice and democracy are not always synonymous terms, and can even be antonyms of each other when democracy is seen as a valuable weapon to be wielded strategically by the majority against the minority.
This is one reason by the way that some countries turn to illegal settlements in occupied land, as a means of forming a majority and thus legitimize their occupation by democratic vote.
Democracy has a value indeed, but it's not to be worshiped blindly either, and there are times when the democratic will of the majority must be ignored on principle.
It's easy to criticize Cliffy. But you're gonna have to back up your claims.
How are the English badly treated in Quebec?
Have you ever been ignored in a Hortons because you ordered coffee instead of café or dubbel instead of dooblay?
We could start with Quebec's discriminatory language laws. You are not protecting French culture, you are forcing it on others. And I was referring more to Quebec's mistreatment of its aboriginal people - Oka pops into mind among others. You really don't want to be pissing off the Mohawks.
Just like our coat of arms expresses, the French unicorn will always be in chains by the crown and lion which would be fine by me if it didn't personally cost me thousands of dollars a year in taxes.
The heraldic unicorn, in fact, is traditionally displayed with a broken chain, and in fact symbolizes freedom from captivity and self detemination. It can also represent the Incarnation and Christ.
As for the the thousands of dollars, using this rationale for holding the country together we might as well divest ourselves of the Maritimes, eastern prairies and northern territories as well, for 'not pulling their own weight' in regional equalization payments. I guarantee you this would make us a much poorer nation, economically and culturally.
"How are the English badly treated in Quebec?"
How about not allowing children of non-French speaking parents to attend the school of their choice, but instead, forcing them to get their children educated in a language that is, for all intents and purposes, is dead in the world, instead of the universal language, ENGLISH.
As far as their future is concerned, that nothing less than cruelty to children.
How about not allowing children of non-French speaking parents to attend the school of their choice, but instead, forcing them to get their children educated in a language that is, for all intents and purposes, is dead in the world, instead of the universal language, ENGLISH.
As far as their future is concerned, that nothing less than cruelty to children.
Can. Charter of Rights & Freedoms says
16. (1) English and French are the official languages of Canada and have equality of status and equal rights and privileges as to their use in all institutions of the Parliament and government of Canada.
However In Quebec, a child may be educated in English only if at least one parent or a sibling was educated in Canada in English. So a French kid with both parents being French educated wanting to learn English is SOL. Some equality. :roll:
Languages on signs? A sign containing both French and English must have the French part bigger than the English part? Equality my a$$.
Bills 22, 101, and 178?
16. (1) English and French are the official languages of Canada and have equality of status and equal rights and privileges as to their use in all institutions of the Parliament and government of Canada.
However In Quebec, a child may be educated in English only if at least one parent or a sibling was educated in Canada in English. So a French kid with both parents being French educated wanting to learn English is SOL. Some equality. :roll:
Languages on signs? A sign containing both French and English must have the French part bigger than the English part? Equality my a$$.
Bills 22, 101, and 178?
Sooner the better. There has always been a sort of political correctness in Canada since Durham's report. Anglo-Canadian Culture as a result has always been suppressed (in order to appease Franco-Canadians) and this left us vulnerable to American cultural imperialism.
I am not going to go against what you said becuase i tend to agree but will point out a flip side of Quebec. It has the biggest Hatian community outside of haiti tho listening to the news it seems to be a problem with them and the cops, more around montreal . Quebec also were ahead of the curve with womans equality, almost to a point if not over men. More open to the Gay community.
Like to add tho, I have heard as much whining about Quebec speration outside of quebec as within. When you are bilingual that's alot of whining 8O:angryfire:
I remember living thru the bombing :smile: of the Montreal Exposition back in 1967. The separatists released lots of balloons with M-80's or some other type of firecracker and leaflets they exploded over our heads. (no one was hurt that I remember) I never realized that separatists existed before that or how dangerous they were.
True. I saw my first bra-less breasts while standing on the corner of Stanley and St. Catherine's in '67. The best girl watching spot in North America at the time. Half the people at my wedding in '69 were Montreal drag queens. A gay friend at the time said Mount Royal was the best cruising grounds in all of NA. Montreal used to be the most liberal city in Canada.
But you know, when Bouchard lost his leg to flesh eating disease, I thought, "that is the most profound metaphor for separation I have ever seen." He didn't learn from it either.
So leave. We have more important thing to do than listen to Quebecers whine. Just remember it is not a revolving door.
yup , this was the whining outside of Quebec that i was talking about
My sentiments exactly, I remember when my kids were 5 or 6 years old and threatened to leave home when the "going got tough".
Nope. What's your point? That you should be served in English wherever you go?
Are you seriously blaming French-Canadians for the Americanization of Canada?
English Canada is vulnerable to American cultural imperialism because you speak the same language.
I can probably agree with you on the aboriginal issue. But this a Canadian issue not exclusive to Quebec.
As for the language laws, would you consider yourself discriminated against if you moved to Spain and your children were expected to go to school in Spanish speaking school?
French culture isn't forced on anyone. You of all people who lived in Montreal should know that. It's profoundly multicultural. French language IS expected to be learned by newcomers. It's a normal thing to ask people you accept in your society to at least be able to function in the language of the society.
Basically you are saying we should all drop French and switch to English. While you're at it you might as well send an E-mail to the rest of humanity saying their languages are useless and that they should all adopt English.